Bulwark on the Battlefield - Tank Alpha One Preview

🏰 Will you be the bulwark on the battlefield? 🛡

Meet the Tank, bastion of bravery, in our Alpha One preview: https://ashesofcreation.com/news/2021-02-09-bulwark-on-the-battlefield-tank-alpha-one-preview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZkkVKZ64Ns

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Comments

Maezriel

So MMORPG has an exclusive on the Tank class and the video preview is out I thought it'd be nice to get other's thoughts on the class.

I'm fairly confident I can head off a few complaints as we all know for many the particle effects lean on the extremely high level and just to remind people that we've been told they'll be tuned way down as we get further into development.

W/ that though I do personally think elemental effects should be left to augmented abilities and find all the fire and brimstone to be an odd choice for base abilities and would really like to hear if others agree or disagree.

mcstackerson

I really like how the charge skill looks and sounds.

I do agree with the elemental comment you said. I think it would be better if it had more of a shock-wavy appearance instead of fire and lava. Maybe it could be blue similar to the charge skill.

Songcaller

I don't like how Ultimate Defence slows the movement but we never saw the tank move after the skill was used. A tank with restricted movement can be a hazard for Raids. I'm not sure how much an Evasion Tank would need all the mitigation moves but I imagine augments would change them. I appreciate that most of the skills generate threat rather than having a single taunt. A ranged taunt is missing but I guess you could just charge a mob at a distance.

Edit: Of course, if Javelin can pull any mob, then a ranged taunt isn't required. I haven't seen a pull be effective on bosses and elite mobs before but Ashes could be different.

Double Edit: You could also throw your weapon as a ranged taunt. It seems like an off the wall move though because the excess weapons only appear when thrown. It reminds me of Jedis in SWG but of course, the lightsabre was thrown and retrieved due to the force.

Third edit: Tanks don't normally have an Invulnerability at level 10. I think this is a broken skill. By all means, have an invulnerability but it should be at a much higher level.

Fourth edit: I love how with Bulwark, The Tank uses the shield rims to strike. For once, The Devs have created the perfect shield move like real life. A shield bash is trash but shield punches (using the rims of shields) is realistic and much appreciated.

Songcaller

Double post removal. Thanks

Crowigor

Not bad for Alpha One. I like the direction the game is taking.
The animations do not irritate the eyes. Although, of course, this is not the final version and I hope it will only get better.

Rhuric

Neurath wrote: »

I don't like how Ultimate Defence slows the movement but we never saw the tank move after the skill was used. A tank with restricted movement can be a hazard for Raids. I'm not sure how much an Evasion Tank would need all the mitigation moves but I imagine augments would change them. I appreciate that most of the skills generate threat rather than having a single taunt. A ranged taunt is missing but I guess you could just charge a mob at a distance.

Edit: Of course, if Javelin can pull any mob, then a ranged taunt isn't required. I haven't seen a pull be effective on bosses and elite mobs before but Ashes could be different.

Double Edit: You could also throw your weapon as a ranged taunt. It seems like an off the wall move though because the excess weapons only appear when thrown. It reminds me of Jedis in SWG but of course, the lightsabre was thrown and retrieved due to the force.

I see the thrown weapon as something similar to paladin tanks in WoW throwing their shield. Especially with the comment about it hitting multiple enemies as you upgrade it. Between the charge, weapon thrown and javelin you get a lot of abilities to control/grab NPCs around you. I like it much better than just using your typical taunt.

Third edit: Tanks don't normally have an Invulnerability at level 10. I think this is a broken skill. By all means, have an invulnerability but it should be at a much higher level.

Again using WoW Paladins as an example, they too get invulnerability at level 10. Ultimate defense isn't an instant invulnerability skill, it's a scaling mitigation up to invulnerability. There are not any values listed for lost health requirements or even length of time yet but I really don't see this as broken and anticipate that the invulnerable part will be only at extreme low levels of health(10%?).

Fourth edit: I love how with Bulwark, The Tank uses the shield rims to strike. For once, The Devs have created the perfect shield move like real life. A shield bash is trash but shield punches (using the rims of shields) is realistic and much appreciated.

I was really hoping they'd have a more aggressive shield attack, I'm excited for this skill too. Admittedly, I was hoping this would be more of a weapon skill related ability instead of class based, but I still love it.

I'm really liking the look of the Tank class and look forward to seeing it in action. I would say my only real complaint is that blocking is a passive skill and not an active ability. It makes it feel like shields are only stat sticks. If it was something that was actively maintained at a increasing stamina/resource cost then it would make it feel like I'm actually using my shield as a shield

My favorite skills displayed are onslaught (I love me a good charge), bulwark and weapon toss. Again I can't wait to see how this plays.

To finish with a question, how will threat work in PvP against other players? Is that something I should start another thread for discussing?

edit: I know the vfx are sort of placeholders, but can we please cut down on the amount of jumping in the animations?

Lughlaoch

Looking good! I was happy to see the dragon/wyvern at the end of the video. I think it confirms progress and that the overall game is shaping up nicely. I concur with much of what has been said also. The effects (minus the levitations) are coming together. As has been mentioned, there will be many changes between now and EA as well as over the life of the game. My thoughts on the shockwave ability would be more of a directed EMP-pulse-type effect. Ripple the group like an earthquake in a direction. However, I believe these to be place-holder actions for what is to be yet developed.

I enjoy tank classes and really like the charge idea/effect and what has been done here.

You can always circle back for additional tweaking - as long as the mechanics are solid, the visuals can be revised.

Keep up the amazing work! Looking cautiously optimistically forward to EA and release!

Mennis

Great for a first look, in my opinion, getting more and more excited for the game.

Songcaller

Yeah, I'm no fan of WoW Paladin. WoW Paladin stood indomitable in the early days of WoW. In PvP, you could kill an entire team except the Paladin, the Paladin would bubble and go invulnerable and then the team would return and the Paladin would still be there, the whole team dies again the paladin is still there, bubble and invulnerability and the cycle repeats. I do not enjoy undefeatable classes. Not that balance will be present in 1vs1.

The Weapon Throw I see similar to Franciscas from the Franks in real life. Franciscas would bounce around and kill multiple people. My issue isn't the move per say but the fact the weapons appear from no where. It should be renamed from Weapon Throw to Axe Throw or something similar. Weapon Throw depicts that your main or offhand weapon will be thrown, not a third dynamic.

In Age of Conan (I tanked in Age of Conan), the Guardian got an invulnerability move. the move was unlocked at level 80 out of 80. I have mentioned how broken WoW Paladin was - well that is why I believe the tank is broken in this instance. Invulnerability at level 10 is just too powerful, it will cause the WoW Paladin effect and I've said before we don't want WoW Paladin.

Threat is a PvE Mechanic. I've had this discussion before. In other MMOs you had Threat and Aggravation. Aggravation was a PvP Mechanic and could lock players on the tank. I wouldn't expect a level 10 Tank to have such skills, the skill can be overpowered if not done correctly.

It is difficult to gauge the issues I have. If these skills are taken to level 50 and augmented, I have no issues with them, taken in isolation at level 10 they seem misplaced. The Tank does need a solid CC, a stun or some form of PvP Taunt/Aggravate. None of the skills I've seen will make me hit a tank. I'd just run around the tank and wear them down. They can pull me closer and I can dance away.

Edit: Spelling mistakes.

Mushin

Just my opinion- in all I think the tank skills looks the best of what we have seen so far. I'm just being overly critical with my comments below. Most of it just has to do with my opinion of a tank being grounded and having a low center of gravity.

Weapon toss- doesn't have to jump
Bulwark- would like the character to be more planted on the ground, and take a lower stance. It kind of looks floaty, especially the second hit. Feet don't need to come off the ground
Ultimate defense- wish the back leg didn't go up, think it would look better if it was more grounded.
Javelin- don't need the extra floating rock effects, I think the dust was enough
Lacerate- why is the weapon just left in the guys head? I understand that the movements are overexaggerated to make the hits look more impactful, but it feels like it has the opposite effect. The front foot doesn't need to come off the ground on the first hit.
Myrmidon- don't need the jump on the last hit
Onslaught- looks great
Shockwave- don't think the lava is necessary, just the ground and rock effects look good enough (lava an augment?)
Resounding Smash- same don't need lava just ground and rock effects

Please do fighter next.

LordAdro

This video does nothing but increase my desire to SEE MORE!

Summoner... lol...

akabear

Great work, with each class iteration shown it is going to make choosing a base class more difficult. They are shaping up well and inspiring.

Only thoughts, whilst I think the animations are great, and have done for the previous classes I would like to see perhaps a more simplified skill effects animation for general usage and the level of animation shown used say 10% of the time or when powered so that there is a tiered levels and not an overwhelming cluster of overlapping skills displayed on the screen at the same time.

LieutenantToast

So glad you all are liking what you're seeing in our latest preview

and definitely appreciate the detailed feedback you're sharing as well!

Rhuric wrote: »

To finish with a question, how will threat work in PvP against other players? Is that something I should start another thread for discussing?

I think that would be a great follow-up discussion topic, or perhaps a question to drop into an upcoming live stream Q&A thread!

Songcaller

Rank 3 of Javelin has a stun imbedded. So the stun is covered if the spec is in place. No need for a stun addition because the stun can be present.

Reading into the skills on the wiki makes more sense. I'd personally go rank 3 on all the base moves and just run with the ten skills lol.

Edit: I like how we've seen 9 skills, the tenth skill will be a gem I'm sure.

Leiloni

Neurath wrote: »

Threat is a PvE Mechanic. I've had this discussion before. In other MMOs you had Threat and Aggravation. Aggravation was a PvP Mechanic and could lock players on the tank. I wouldn't expect a level 10 Tank to have such skills, the skill can be overpowered if not done correctly.

It is difficult to gauge the issues I have. If these skills are taken to level 50 and augmented, I have no issues with them, taken in isolation at level 10 they seem misplaced. The Tank does need a solid CC, a stun or some form of PvP Taunt/Aggravate. None of the skills I've seen will make me hit a tank. I'd just run around the tank and wear them down. They can pull me closer and I can dance away.

Edit: Spelling mistakes.

Given the CC they have so far - likely we'll see more - I think the tank will be annoying enough in PvP to be able to force players to attack him. I've seen it other games (TERA for example with both Lancer and Warrior tanks) and it worked well there. Instead of creating an artificial stat like Aggravation to remove control of the player character, the tank forces you to pay attention via aggressive attacks and CC that make it hard to ignore them.

So far we have Onslaught, a charge that can have a KD if you spec into it, Shockwave, an AoE KD, and Javelin a single target leash that turns into multi-target with stun if you spec into it. We're only 10 levels in and so far you already have several promising abilities to keep control of player targets in PvP - Charge, 2 KDs, leash, and stun (Depending on what you spec into but still - the options are there).

Worth reading the article they posted on MMORPG.com since it details some of the additional affects for speccing into a skill. https://www.mmorpg.com/developer-journals/ashes-of-creation-bulwark-on-the-battlefield-tank-alpha-one-preview-2000120931

Songcaller

Yeah, I'm aware of the 9 skills. I read the wiki. I'm not sure on DPS Parameters. The damage can be increased on damageable skills. The Tank has a mitigation skill which can shield allies and provide invulnerability for the tank. The Tank has a lot of knockdowns and can stun up to 5 targets. I do not think it is a bad build for PvP, I was answering the question from Rhuric specifically on threat/taunt.

I do not know how deadly it would be to be knocked down. In some MMOs you could be dead before you stand up again. Kill time should be 30 seconds to 60 seconds long which means that the CCs are not harbingers of doom. I still wouldn't strike the tank, I would force the tank to use the cooldowns and blow the invulnerability before it becomes an invulnerability.

If we still have hard counters, then, unless the class I play is the hard counter to tank, I still would ignore them on the battlefield. TTK means there will be options. In Tera, the combat was fully action combat. So far, I've seen static abilities in Ashes. The static moves are so prevalent I feel the combat's from L2 with the static. I'm waiting for the combat upgrades. I noticed the wall wasn't displayed in the video.

I do not think the Tank will be a massive killer on the battlefield, I believe the Tank will be a disrupter. It is not unknown to wipe whole teams even with disrupters in the opposite side. Skill and tactics would be involved and I can't create tactics until I know about the other classes. I do make comments and statements but it is from theory crafts because the moves we've seen are static moves, not PvP orientated gameplay, and, furthermore the skills we saw weren't rank 3.

It is unlikely you will be mass PvPing at level 10. The game will have no balance in 1vs1. I think the Tank will be solid in 1vs1 and I think the skills would be useful at level 50. You can augment the skills to do more damage, you might be able to augment the skills to provide more CC, you might be able to augment the skills to provide self heals etc. The base feels a little OP but the OPness should fade by level 50.

I don't know if there will be stun locks or if stuns will break on damage. I would probably lean towards stun locks because of the static nature of other combat mechanics. If it is stun lock then the combat will be even more static and rather horrid.

Edit: Tera was an abysmal creation which only saw new life when it was ported to Consoles. The combat was the best part of the game but it was better on Consoles than PC.

Hjerim

I love the tank archetype and it is my favourite in an MMO.

We just got to see the tank skills in the video below:
Video

Some initial thought.
From the preview description, linked here, it sounds like the tank is more of a hybrid geomancer-tank.

It can also clearly be seen with the "Javelin" skill that rocks starts floating when it is used, which hints to the tanks control over the geo element.
To this I can only say: Please Intrepid, don't take my tank away from me. Leave geomancer away or give it to a mage. Pretty, pretty please...

As for the quality of the animation. I think this is a huge step in the right direction and there is a lot less particle effects - which I think is a good thing.

The skills themselves needs to be altered further (no surprise here, we are still not in Alpha1).
But I do have individual feedback to the skills we are presented:

Weapon Toss: I will probably say this a lot, but this skill with a jumping rotation does not for me translate into a tank. I would remove the spin and instead having it be a throw where you can see the characters effort in throwing using a few hundred milliseconds to pull back and then throw.

Bulwark: could have been one mighty hit that stuns or knockdowns. Not sure what I think of it in its current iteration. A little too slow and not deliberate. Also if the skill is to add extra defence, I think the stance should change after using it to illustrate the character focusing on defence while under the effect. It its current form the skill does not translate well into its effect.

Ultimate Defense: I am not all in on the smoke effect, but the shields coming up gives a good idea of what the skill does. Again if the character gains increased defence, I would do something like changing stance or using particle effects to show the effect.

Javelin: The skill looks great and looks to be doing just what you would expect. I sadly don't understand the added stones. It is great to see something else than just lighting particles. The stones only adds a magical flair to a skill that shouldn't have it.

Lacerate: I think it would be a cool skill if the second hit was a slice similar to the first one. Leaving the sword in the face sounds like a cool idea, but I think it should just be scrapped unfortunately. The first long slice makes sense that it causes bleed, add another strike similar in the other direction instead of the sword in face, and this ability is perfect. Charge up takes the right amount of time and it looks deliberate.

Myrmidon: Too sped up and that high jump breaks the suspension of disbelief. Again, if the ability is supposed to increase your defence, then once it is finished, a change in the character stance, for the duration, will make a lot more sense - the ability itself does not show an increase in defence.

Onslaught: Absolutely gorgeous. Everything in this ability seems to hit the mark and illustrates the perfect amount of speed and impact. If this is the bar, for the rest of the abilities moving forward, then it is a high bar!

Shockwave and Resounding Smash: They both illustrate well what they do. But I would change the fire with rocks, not magical floating rocks, but like an earthquake effect.

That is all for now, despite critique about a lot of things, I am very pleased with the quality of what I see and I recognize a big leap in the right direction.

Asgerr

My only real issue was with Myrmidon. It honestly looked subpar compared to the others and breaks some of the feeling of being a sturdy powerful tank.

Hjerim

Asgerr wrote: »

My only real issue was with Myrmidon. It honestly looked subpar compared to the others and breaks some of the feeling of being a sturdy powerful tank.

This is exactly what I want the abilities to show. Some of these abilities do not scream "tank" but rather rogue or another light-armoured class.

Also an interesting thought. In Lacerate's current iteration, what happens if you are using another weapon than a sword? do you also push a hammer into the face of the enemy and leave it there?
Are skills individual looking depending on which weapon type you use? or are the weapons summoned when you use an ability?

Maciej

This looks pretty dope. Javelin alone gives me hopes for Tank viability in PvP. I'm now also curious if it's feasible to build a viable PvE Tank with a two-hander like in FFXIV (heavy on absorbs, large health pool, and some self heals).

I might echo a bit the feedback on lava effects, it looks a lot like something a magic class would do rather than a martial class. Not going to complain if it stays, but I think it would be a good animation for Tank/Mage with fire augment.

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