Do we need Character Levels?

I had an idea that I would like your thoughts on.

With so many ways to play this game and level your character, do we really need some arbitrary character level? If someone levels a character to 50 through combat, and another character to 50 by professions, then their level 50 really doesn't mean much.

An idea I had was to allow your character to level in many different areaa, like combat, professions, trade, etc. Let's say you can level to 50 in each of these categories, and then your "character level" would be the combination of all these different levels.

Is there another game out there that does this? Is this a good idea or bad idea?

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Tyranthraxus

Levelling has traditionally been the best way to introduce a character's abilities to them. Even games that haven't included general combat levels have typically still had a levelling system - just for abilities/builds, instead.

Same difference.

Percimes

Levels are a staple of most, if not all, RPG. People like being able to track their progression. They often like to look back at how easy past challenges have become.

The best alternative I've seen was to divide/replace levels by skills. The Elder Scrolls games are like that. In the MMO genre, Star Wars Galaxies was like that too, but the total skill points available was restricted for balance. I think some fps shooters are like that too.

I would like very much that the game would completely forgo levels and track progression through a skill points system. No HP augmentation. Hits, accuracy, defence, evasion, all progressing with the use of their related skills. The more proficient you are with a skill/spell, the higher the damage or crit chance. Heck, classes could also be ditched, replaced with a limited number of skill points available or some sort of skill decaying system so that no one can master every skills. But that's just my, probably unpopular, dream.

McShave

@Percimes I like the way you think, my friend. Unfortunately, one of the top selling features of Ashes is the "64 classe" so I don't think it's going anywhere. I like the idea of skills getting better the more you use them, sort of like what ESO did, but I think Intrepid is gonna stick with the talent tree type system they have.

@Tyranthraxus The system I proposed still has the leveling system, it's just altering what the definition of "character level" is.

Wandering Mist

The closest that I can think of to that is Old School Runescape, which splits up every activity into its own skill that needs to be levelled. Cutting down a tree will level up your woodcutting but nothing else. Your "character level" is just the sum of all your skills and really doesn't matter at all. What does matter is your combat level, which is calculated from all your different combat skills (magic, ranged, melee, defence, etc).

So in OSRS you could be combat level 50 with a melee skill of 1 and a magic skill of 50, and vice versa.

McMackMuck

My opinion is worth no more than yours.

Roleplaying systems that don't have levels (WFRP and Runequest for example) feel nice because you have to judge a character by their actions, clothing and what they say, instead of just looking at their profession and level. It feels healthier from a roleplaying perspective. However, I've not heard of any online RPGs doing things that way before. It would be extremely brave of any developer to go that route.

So many are happy and familiar with the selected format of Archetype and level with a skill tree point allocation system that has tiers which unlock as your character level increases. I think it is too late in the development for the Devs to change their current approach.

The artisan progression in some ways ticks that box for me, because you could max an artisan class and still be relatively low level, trading on your artisan reputation irrespective of your character level.

In Ashes, I believe that hovering your mouse over someone will just give a vague relative power level assessment based on their archetype / class level and gear. You won't get to know artisan skill levels, hit points, or any of the other things you we see by spying on a D&D character sheet when the player sat next to you isn't watching.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, I would hate to spread mis-information.

McShave

@McMackMuck very well said. Someone would need to fact check this, but I'm pretty sure Steven said you could level your character through non-combat options. I went to assume that you could level to max using this method. This is why I brought up my post, I think it would be silly to have a max level character and then scaring a low level person, even tho your a crafter or something lol.

Also about mousing over a character to gague their power levels, I think this is mostly to get around the cosmetics in the game. You won't be able to look at a character's gear to see how strong they are, so this is a good work around.

Vhaeyne

I have though about this in the past. From some games I would agree that levels are just arbitrary numbers that are not really worth much. For a game like WOW/FFXIV with character boosts and que systems. No leveling makes some sense.

In games like Ashes I feel that a long leveling grind is required as a barrier to entry to access all of the content a game has to offer for a class/profession. If there is little work or effort required to make alts than everyone will have a alt for everything. It is worst in a game like Ashes because you could just make characters for specific tasks and then transfer things around since nearly no items are character bound. This would hurt the economy and reduce some of the social aspects of the game.

Another issue is that if you can just create max level characters all day, your name means nothing. If you piss off the wrong people that is fine. Just roll another toon and all is forgotten. This destroys some social dynamics that come from your character having to establish a name for themselves. Remember name changes will never be a thing in Ashes.

I strongly feel that leveling as a barrier to entry is necessary to prevent people from being able to quickly get to a point where they can do everything for themselves and keep player name identity important. This is a Risk Vs Reward Open World Focused game. People need to be able to recognize other players names in the world and react accordingly. You should not easily be able to just abandon all of the work you have put into making a name for yourself when you act up.

Kusaijshi

Its a Bad idea Because then you dont know how strong Person xy is for some dungeon.
dungeon level is 45 combat and you only want people with a Combat level from minimum 44 to dont make it a pain in the a** so then you will get many players who are 1 or 2 levels behind that 44 but are hiding it behind some useless (for dungeon) crafting levels.
FF14 has a system where your charakter can reach levels in each profession like
Class
Smithing
Mining
etc. etc. etc

Thats totally fine because you still see his real combat level whats the only important thing is if you want to go into a dungeon.

mobtek

As much as I like the idea of not having levels but experience tying into different skills maybe I have no idea how that would work.

Noaani

To me, no levels makes sense in a game that puts the story first. Not requiring levels means players can access any part of the world to experience the story first hand.

For games that put the content first, levels make sense.

Saedu

Vhaeyne wrote: »

In games like Ashes I feel that a long leveling grind is required as a barrier to entry to access all of the content a game has to offer for a class/profession. If there is little work or effort required to make alts than everyone will have a alt for everything. It is worst in a game like Ashes because you could just make characters for specific tasks and then transfer things around since nearly no items are character bound. This would hurt the economy and reduce some of the social aspects of the game.

Another issue is that if you can just create max level characters all day, your name means nothing. If you piss off the wrong people that is fine. Just roll another toon and all is forgotten. This destroys some social dynamics that come from your character having to establish a name for themselves. Remember name changes will never be a thing in Ashes.

I strongly feel that leveling as a barrier to entry is necessary to prevent people from being able to quickly get to a point where they can do everything for themselves and keep player name identity important. This is a Risk Vs Reward Open World Focused game. People need to be able to recognize other players names in the world and react accordingly. You should not easily be able to just abandon all of the work you have put into making a name for yourself when you act up.

Just shift the grind from the leveling to the actual end game content (professions, gear, etc). Leveling feels antiquated. perhaps a quick 1 - 20 levels that can be done in ~5 hours to help you get used to your classes abilities, but you don't really need more than that.

If the leveling has to be there to be a gate for end game systems, then it sounds like the end game systems are not strong.

Also, a leveling curve, even if steep, will not stop alts. Alts are a good thing for a game as well. It gives people variety in gameplay. For PvP it also helps you better understand how the classes you are going up against work.

Warth

I don''t think there is much difference either way. What would be the advantages of forgoing a character level system?

Also, refering to it as character level seems somewhat wrong. Neither profession nor social activities/societies affect your "character level" Its much more akin to a combat level.

Considering, that your change would suggest maintaining a combat level, nothing would change at all except, that you'd wanna create another type of level, which would be the sum of all the level progress you have made across different activities.

Which would be completely and entirely useless. If you look someone for your party, you don't give a shit what his level is in any activity but combat. If you look for a crafter, you don't care about anything other than the level of their profession. A character level as you suggest it serves no purpose at all.

Warth

Saedu wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

In games like Ashes I feel that a long leveling grind is required as a barrier to entry to access all of the content a game has to offer for a class/profession. If there is little work or effort required to make alts than everyone will have a alt for everything. It is worst in a game like Ashes because you could just make characters for specific tasks and then transfer things around since nearly no items are character bound. This would hurt the economy and reduce some of the social aspects of the game.

Another issue is that if you can just create max level characters all day, your name means nothing. If you piss off the wrong people that is fine. Just roll another toon and all is forgotten. This destroys some social dynamics that come from your character having to establish a name for themselves. Remember name changes will never be a thing in Ashes.

I strongly feel that leveling as a barrier to entry is necessary to prevent people from being able to quickly get to a point where they can do everything for themselves and keep player name identity important. This is a Risk Vs Reward Open World Focused game. People need to be able to recognize other players names in the world and react accordingly. You should not easily be able to just abandon all of the work you have put into making a name for yourself when you act up.

Just shift the grind from the leveling to the actual end game content (professions, gear, etc). Leveling feels antiquated. perhaps a quick 1 - 20 levels that can be done in ~5 hours to help you get used to your classes abilities, but you don't really need more than that.

If the leveling has to be there to be a gate for end game systems, then it sounds like the end game systems are not strong.

Also, a leveling curve, even if steep, will not stop alts. Alts are a good thing for a game as well. It gives people variety in gameplay. For PvP it also helps you better understand how the classes you are going up against work.

soudns like themepark mentality to me, where the game starts when you hit max level. Which is allegedly not going to be the case here. Systems don't unlock with your character/combat level at all here. Your character gets stronger though level ups, nothing else. You can do the exact same content whether you are level 20 or 50. Just that you'll probably have an easier time doing it as 50.

Vhaeyne

Saedu wrote: »

Just shift the grind from the leveling to the actual end game content (professions, gear, etc). Leveling feels antiquated. perhaps a quick 1 - 20 levels that can be done in ~5 hours to help you get used to your classes abilities, but you don't really need more than that.

If the leveling has to be there to be a gate for end game systems, then it sounds like the end game systems are not strong.

Also, a leveling curve, even if steep, will not stop alts. Alts are a good thing for a game as well. It gives people variety in gameplay. For PvP it also helps you better understand how the classes you are going up against work.

Make the grind 225-250 hours, and we got a deal... (which is what it is for AoC btw)

Remember we are getting into a Open world MMORPG not a WOW clone, things are different. There is a living breathing economy with a dynamic world. You are not going to be able to even rush to cap day one. There might not be a node with high level mobs for a while.

TBH I feel like the intended grind is not enough. It needs to be demoralizing.

You can understand other classes in PvP by reading there ability's and experience fighting them. You don't need to play every class to better understand how to deal with other classes in PvP. .

Maezriel

If it's not levels (whether character or skill) then progress would have to be locked behind specific points.

Ocarina of Time would be an excellent example of a game where your progression is locked behind certain story points and you cannot complete the game w/o first completing each temple

Then you have BOTW where there's nothing stopping you (after the tutorial) from heading straight to Gannon...and whereas that might sound fun it would severely undermine the reward of "time invested" that so many AoC fans are looking for.

Khronus

Even shooting games evolved to a leveling system. Yes, some form of a leveling system is a requirement for a popular game.

daveywavey

McShave wrote: »

With so many ways to play this game and level your character, do we really need some arbitrary character level? If someone levels a character to 50 through combat, and another character to 50 by professions, then their level 50 really doesn't mean much.

Why does it not mean much?

McShave

daveywavey wrote: »

Why does it not mean much?

I'm just thinking of the scenario that someone leveled to max level using professions, then wanted to run a max level dungeon. A party takes this person because they are max level, but they don't even know what they're abilities do.

McShave

Warth wrote: »

Also, refering to it as character level seems somewhat wrong. Neither profession nor social activities/societies affect your "character level" Its much more akin to a combat level.

I may be wrong, but i remember Steven saying you gain xp with professions. But this is a good work around. Just have combat related xp contribute to your character level and this fixes my issue.

Saedu

McShave wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

Also, refering to it as character level seems somewhat wrong. Neither profession nor social activities/societies affect your "character level" Its much more akin to a combat level.

I may be wrong, but i remember Steven saying you gain xp with professions. But this is a good work around. Just have combat related xp contribute to your character level and this fixes my issue.

Gotta have some way for the pacifist to hit max level by only picking flowers for 3 years!

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