Anti-Griefing in game?

I played and loved Lineage 2 from Open Beta and 4 years after launch on the Lionna server. It was my first MMO ever, and it was a brutal lesson on how these games played and worked. My question stems from living with the Lineage 2 flagging system, and how it has work arounds to kill players without going corrupt. Is this being looked into, or will this be another part of the game to help drive PvP on the servers?

In Lineage 2, most of the grief, at first, came from gold farmers who wanted you out of the best farming areas, this included quest areas as well. Listening to Steven on one of the videos they made, he stated that gold farming will an issue they will have to deal with. So knowing the brutal lengths farmers will go to, to protect their real life money operations, I am worried that this will be an issue again, especially since they are already well versed in Lineage 2 flagging and PvP system.

If this issue has been brought up and talked about already, I apologize.

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bloodprophet

Welcome to the fun.
There have been many threads here about this sort of thing. George Black is a L2 player as well and has some really god posts reguarding the similarities. This is from the wiki but I don't think farmers killing peeps is a benefit for them. If people stay green and let them gain corruption so others can smash them and take even more of their stuff.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Corruption

Recluse74

Lineage 2 is where he got this system from, and anyone who played Lineage 2 is well aware of how this all works.. the issue is not the PvP, it is the griefing.

You coming into an area and picking a fight with me because you want my spot is not griefing. This gives me a choice to either ignore you, and let you go corrupt for your choice, or to fight back and may the best player win.. All choices here I can respect.

Griefing is a different monster, because their is no chance the player doing the griefing, will go corrupt since they are having the PvE world do the work for them. Healing the mobs, training mass amounts of mobs onto your party, or do just enough damage to you that the mobs get the killing shot. These are just a sample of what you will see with this system. Lineage 2 was full of this in certain areas, usually where any high dollar material dropped, or where groups power leveled other players.

So I guess I could have worded my question better... Will players be able to use the mechanics I mentioned to grief other players, and if so... will it be looked down upon, or just another part of the game?

Thank you for the welcome as well. Been keeping my eye on this game for sometime now, just now decided to get into the fray.

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

Griefing is a different monster, because their is no chance the player doing the griefing, will go corrupt since they are having the PvE world do the work for them. Healing the mobs, training mass amounts of mobs onto your party, or do just enough damage to you that the mobs get the killing shot. These are just a sample of what you will see with this system.

These are all things that we have bought up before.

The system will be tested, and if there are things that need to be fixed, they will be fixed.

On of the easiest fixes they could do is make it so that if you attack a non-combatant and that non-combatant dies within a specfic time period (say, 6 seconds), then you get corruption.

Training and/or healing mobs haven't been an issue in games (that don't want these things) for well over a decade.

Recluse74

One can hope I guess. Thank you for the response, I just get worried because the grief we took in Lineage 2 at certain points was unbearable. Healing mobs is easy to get rid of, you just do not give players the option to do so, Training mobs where, in the game, the default auto attack does a cone of damage outside of the mob you have targeted could bring the issue back into play. I would imagine damage to a mob would override the aggro state of just chasing a player. Either way, it sounds like I hit a nerve since this has been discussed at length before. Thank you for the responses.

George_Black

My hope for tackling gold farmers is more active GMs, a western developer with better response to "Reports" as opposed to NcSoft, no L2walker since the game isn't about clicking but more complex. Mobs will also be more modernized. L2 mobs were too simplistic and easier to pull. Also, aoe flagging wont be a thing in AoC, since there is a mix of action combat. None the less, valid concerns.

The idea to not being able to heal or buff mobs is not bad.

I dont wanna see any hard restrictions such as no gold /trade between players like BDO. They ruin the fun. I prefer a good game with gold traders than yet another bad mmo.

Seeing how you come from L2, I know how excited you are for AoC. Dont worry too much about cheaters. Let's have real fun again.

Bricktop

Recluse74 wrote: »

I just get worried because the grief we took in Lineage 2 at certain points was unbearable.

You and I had very different L2 experiences on retail. I played on Gustin and at no point in time do I remember feeling unbearable griefing.

Noaani

Bricktop wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

I just get worried because the grief we took in Lineage 2 at certain points was unbearable.

You and I had very different L2 experiences on retail. I played on Gustin and at no point in time do I remember feeling unbearable griefing.

I've never played a game with you, but just from discussions here I can say without reservation that you wouldn't have been griefed in L2 because you were the one doing the griefing.

akabear

Yeah, I played on Gustin too. I recall treating bot griefing as sport. Training them with mobs, party whipping them, repeated killing but it did not always work. I recall feeling very pleased with a group that just pk`ed a bot group only to be set upon by their "enforcer" a few min later that was obscenely either overpowered or better at pvp than us and thoroughly kicked our butt. But all in a day`s exploits.

Ah and as for being griefed. I recall some wars that we were not able to stop and got had clan attrition as a result. One player used to do two sweeps a night at 4:10 and 4:30pm.. two buff rounds a night for about a month.. got me prob. 20% of the time.. but lived with it. Springing up on someone when they are doing intense pve is pretty easy.

One of the best moments I was told of, so not sure how true, was when a GM ported into game and took out a bot group in front of clan members for all to see. That kind of interaction / action from the GM side is always welcome!

Bricktop

Noaani wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

I just get worried because the grief we took in Lineage 2 at certain points was unbearable.

You and I had very different L2 experiences on retail. I played on Gustin and at no point in time do I remember feeling unbearable griefing.

I've never played a game with you, but just from discussions here I can say without reservation that you wouldn't have been griefed in L2 because you were the one doing the griefing.

The crazy thing is that your opinion is completely meaningless to me at this stage in your life. Why anyone on these forums would take what you say seriously about any open world MMORPGs is a giant mystery. You hid on an island in AA as a solo player (Your only actual open world experience from what I've gathered), you didn't play L2 as you have told the class before, did you play SWG? You go around talking about Final fantasy instances and EQ nearly exclusively, your passion is DPS meters, you say that "PvE content in the open world is actually PvP content" when that's pretty much the entirety of the 4 games that Ashes takes all of it's ideas from, etc. You advocate for guaranteed weekly free gear when that would be an extremely strange way of going back to the "old school feeling of MMOs" that the devs like to talk about.

It's easy to be a victim when you go around and allow yourself to be one constantly. When I was playing L2 none of these things crossed my mind as griefing, just part of the game that very rarely happened sometimes. Healing/buffing mobs caused you to flag. Training mobs needed fake death to actually work (Dagger user). It just wasn't a common problem for me.

Recluse74

George Black wrote: »

My hope for tackling gold farmers is more active GMs, a western developer with better response to "Reports" as opposed to NcSoft, no L2walker since the game isn't about clicking but more complex. Mobs will also be more modernized. L2 mobs were too simplistic and easier to pull. Also, aoe flagging wont be a thing in AoC, since there is a mix of action combat. None the less, valid concerns.

The idea to not being able to heal or buff mobs is not bad.

I dont wanna see any hard restrictions such as no gold /trade between players like BDO. They ruin the fun. I prefer a good game with gold traders than yet another bad mmo.

Seeing how you come from L2, I know how excited you are for AoC. Dont worry too much about cheaters. Let's have real fun again.

Appreciate the response.

My issues were not at launch, it was some time after that when I decided to level an alt. I had heard stories from new players about their troubles with the farmers, but really paid no attention to them since I had dealt with a few of them in our launch leveling experience, but it was not much trouble, and was actually fun most of the time.

It was when I started my dwarf alt, I saw first hand how bad it had become. I am not as worried as I first was when I posted this. I just had flashbacks of how the lower level areas were basically dead because farmers made it hard for new players, and the only way to level an alt safely, was to get your clan mates to power level you when possible.

Now to find a PvP clan.. and roll into this new game.

akabear

I thought that a modern game would make botting harder but playing BDO, I swear there were botters at times.

I just hope in AoC they send in a GM in god mode from time to time to show they are active and aware of what is going in, observe in-game and then have some rather novel / visual way to obliterate botters for all to see rather than quietly cancelling access. reduced to ashes.. some unique annimation! just for a bit of fun

Or even, if beyond any reasonable doubt, a global announcement that player x is botting.. in x location.. similar to how pk`ers will be and a switch to make them Piñata and free for all drops..

maouw

^That's a hilarious IDEA!!!

The GM's find a botter (need to 100% confirm the botter), then override their combat status to heavy corruption and send in the bounty hunters, while the GM deletes the rest of their free-hold storage.

Unforch, the stealth approach is actually much more effective at catching networks of botters rather than individual accounts so I don't think this will happen very often, if at all.

maouw

maouw wrote: »

^That's a hilarious IDEA!!!

The GM's find a botter (need to 100% confirm the botter), then override their combat status to heavy corruption and send in the bounty hunters, while the GM deletes the rest of their free-hold storage.

Unforch, the stealth approach is actually much more effective at catching networks of botters rather than individual accounts so I don't think this will happen very often, if at all.

This makes me think it would be fun if GM's had animations to go with their GM powers.
Like the ban hammer having a full animation of holy doom with a "you have been judged GUILTY".

Probs not the best idea tho, would lead to power tripping.

Recluse74

akabear wrote: »

I thought that a modern game would make botting harder but playing BDO, I swear there were botters at times.

I just hope in AoC they send in a GM in god mode from time to time to show they are active and aware of what is going in, observe in-game and then have some rather novel / visual way to obliterate botters for all to see rather than quietly cancelling access. reduced to ashes.. some unique annimation! just for a bit of fun

Or even, if beyond any reasonable doubt, a global announcement that player x is botting.. in x location.. similar to how pk`ers will be and a switch to make them Piñata and free for all drops..

Sad thing is, they are not all bots. They are actual people playing the farmers role. Mostly kids working for a couple a bucks an hour in some danky internet cafe type of place, or PC repair shop as my friend found out. He was stationed in Korea at the time, and went to a repair shop to get a new power supply for his PC... He noticed the guys had Lineage 2 posters up on the wall and started a conversation with him about it, and the guy took him in the back and showed him his little farming army he had in the back.

My friend said at the time, there were maybe 10 kids back there playing and farming, but at least 20 other PC's not being used at the time that were used for the same thing. Sad part is, my friend started buying gold off this guy for a discount and even had his Orc power leveled by them... he ended up quitting the game shortly after and sold his account to the gold farmer for a couple hundred bucks.

This was a small operation, but the shop owner told my friend it was how he paid his bills and told him averaged about $5K a month selling gold and power leveling services.

Blackhearted

Isnt griefing a subjective opinion based on expectations of the game?
Ive never experienced griefing because I expect that to happen in areas where PvP is advocated and I am willing to alter my activities if I get constantly killed.
That kind of interaction will tell me that I need to improve my gameplay.
Only times I get frustrated getting farmed is when the reason is heavily affected by gear and even more when gear is heavily affected by luck.

The most fun u can get when trolls are farming u and u still manage to piss them off and get them to directly break game rules.

Noaani

Bricktop wrote: »

You hid on an island in AA

Hid on an island?

I spent the bulk of my time in Auroria, the third continent, the largest part of the world where PvP is always enabled, the part of the world that - at the time - had the most amount of people in it. Not only that, but I spent all my time on that part of the world as a pirate - usually the only one on the server, meaning that literally every other player could attack me at will, with no repercussions at all to them.

Also, there was an island in that game that was fairly advantagous for pirates. It was essentially that factions "hub" town to get quests and such, as well as some housing and such. I hardly ever went there, and had no land there at all.

Basically, I played that game in a high population area with a giant sign on my back that said "come at me, see what happens".

But hey, if you want to say that people shouldn't be listening to me when you are as wrong as you are here, that's cool, I guess.

Recluse74

Blackhearted wrote: »

Isnt griefing a subjective opinion based on expectations of the game?
Ive never experienced griefing because I expect that to happen in areas where PvP is advocated and I am willing to alter my activities if I get constantly killed.
That kind of interaction will tell me that I need to improve my gameplay.
Only times I get frustrated getting farmed is when the reason is heavily affected by gear and even more when gear is heavily affected by luck.

The most fun u can get when trolls are farming u and u still manage to piss them off and get them to directly break game rules.

Griefing in Lineage 2 came in many forms.

For example, you are doing a quest at level 10, so you can ascend to the next tier of skills available for your new class... You are told to go to a certain open world dungeon and kill a certain type of monster and bring back the skins as proof. When you get to the area, there are only 10 of these monsters that spawn, and a small group is farming them because they drop gold and materials at a high rate. The players doing the farming outnumber and out level you, and also have a healer not a part of the party that is 30 levels higher than you, just sitting there for protection and to heal and buff when needed.

Fighting them is out of the question, you cannot out DPS them to get a tag on a mob to get drops... so you cannot complete your quest. This was an actual problem I ran into in Lineage 2.. I jumped on my main character to come and try and force them out, but they sent a full party of max level players to run me out soon after.

Now... I seriously doubt we will run into this in this game, at least I hope so. I think my fears were founded in what I saw happen in Lineage 2, and since this game was using the same flagging system... memories of things like this and many more instances jumped in my head.

Like in my last post about the small farming operation my friend was shown in Korea, this $5k a month he was earning was his main source of income and afforded him his life style he was living. When players come in and mess with that real life income, they will go to drastic measures to stop you from messing with their cash. And that is what I was worried about... But I am over it now.. no one here seems to be worried about it, so I will wait to see what happens in game after launch to think about it again .

Bricktop

Noaani wrote: »

But hey, if you want to say that people shouldn't be listening to me when you are as wrong as you are here, that's cool, I guess.

Unlike you I can actually prove my group and I didn't hide on an island in Archeage as a solo pirate.

Feel free to go look at some of our old videos in my thread.

Nagash

At this point I lost count of corruption threads

Recluse74

Nagash wrote: »

At this point I lost count of corruption threads

Not a corruption thread. It is a griefing thread.

Corruption is based on killing a player who does not fight back. Part of the game and I have taken part of this many of times.

Griefing is based on harassing a player, making progress hard or impossible because you feel like it. Usually done by higher level players against lower level players. No one goes red (unless they screw up), they just make your time in game a nightmare because they can... basically a bully who you have no chance winning against in the specific time and place.

You will not see it early in game, because 99% of player base is within a few levels of each other, and they are busy leveling or accomplishing goals.

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