Guild Gathering #3 - Measuring Success

MargaretKrohnMargaretKrohn Moderator, Staff
edited April 20 in General Discussion
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Glorious Ashes community - we're excited to continue our new series called Guild Gatherings! Guild Gathering topics are a "reverse Q&A" similar to our Dev Discussions, where we ask you about your thoughts on everything related to guilds.

Our team has compiled a list of questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding guild tools, gameplay, your previous experiences, and more. Join in on our Guild Gatherings and share how your gaming family is special to you!


Guild Gathering #3 - Measuring Success
How do you measure your success as a guild in a game? What kinds of things would you like to see in Ashes of Creation to help you measure that success?

Keep an eye out for our next Guild Gathering topic regarding team building!
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Comments

  • RabbitRabbit Member, Braver of Worlds
    Whether it's supplying our own equipment, helping Guild members level up, or defeating dungeon/world content, our guild (Wolfpack) is successful if we're able to accomplish our goals in-house. That is to say, with minimal assistance from PUGs. Having our members know they can rely on fellow Guildmates is the very reason for belonging to a Guild in the first place.
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  • BCGBCG Member, Intrepid Pack
    PvE:
    Server First Raid Boss Kill
    World First Raid Boss Kill

    PvP:
    Castles Owner x Period of Time
    Guild Wars won
    Kill Counts
  • ZenleeKZenleeK Member
    I think the best games make losing fun. For example with new mechanics to strike back or regain your strength, so that losing is part of the game.
    When you do that, you can actually make winning matter (which is important) without destroying the fun for everyone else.
    I like that.
  • AlaktasAlaktas Member
    edited April 20
    Guild Wars and other open world PvP, Raids, an epic guild hall with tons of trophies and the ability of the guild to sustain itself without outsiders for the most part (capable crafters and warriors of all brackets).
    Holding a castle or being patron guild of a node will definitely count as success too.
    Additionally, helping each other and especially members that are weaker or newer to the game and growing together as a guild into strong players is what gives me the biggest feeling of success.
  • edited April 20
    1° Number of members(not always a good measure but still important),

    2°Accomplishments records: [May it be PvE related(First guild to kill a world boss or finish a specific hard instanced dungeon, and a record on how many times those world bosses were killed or how many times the instanced dungeon was cleared by the guild )
    or PvP Related (How many war against other guilds was won and which guilds were those , and possible record for which guilds ever owned which castles in the history of a server and maybe a reputation system similar to lineage 2?)

    3° Territory influence: maybe a record on how much exp a Guild and its members provided to a node and how many members of that guild is a citizen of the node.

    4° Guild Overall and total gear score.

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  • PurecpuPurecpu Member
    Some form of equipment dedicated to the top guilds or certain bench marks. Titles should be distinguished. Maybe some form of special housing that only unlocks at certain ranks evolving upwards.
    World Firsts should be also given attention too, same with server firsts.
  • RemedyzRemedyz Member
    Measuring success with a guild can definitely be subjective. For me personally, as long as Guildies and I are having fun it's a success.. everything else is just icing on the cake.

    The big thing that helps guilds be more successful in any MMO is a reason to be in a guild, to begin with. Having systems for management and structure, a nice UI/UX for the guild, and incentives to being in a guild is important.
  • I think a nice way to measure success for a guild would be through an Achievement system , with Achievements spanning from trading to raids to pvp in free world to node progress that way regardless of that the guilds playstyle they have some concept of a goal for all aspect to work towards in terms of a fixed point that the achievement is at.
  • edited April 20
    I'll give my voice for the PvP side:
    would love to see some sort of PvP League existing in Ashes,
    where u can throw ur guild in -
    and won GvGs, BGs, Sieges accumulate credits that start ranking the Guilds in the League.
    after a period of like a month, top 10 get rewards - top 3 run around with a bad-ass title.

    for me, a League system is an ez way to visualize the success of a Guild on a server, PvP/PVE alike~

    I am also a big fan of leaderboards, that show off individual players (with a guild icon/name).
  • For me, it's probably gonna be the ability to fight the hardest PvE bosses and the ability to protect our city or metropolis, its citizens, and their caravans. I think that's already gonna be tough for a guild with around 30-50 players. I'm less about prestigious items and more about having my guild be respected for what it means to the players playing in that Node (or even ZOI).
  • VemenonVemenon Member
    First of all, for me, the guild is having fun together. But when it comes to the success of the guild, it is first and foremost the successive development of the players in the guild. The ability to help weaker players who have just joined the guild is somewhat of a success, because the guild is not only a guild leader and a few of his friends, but also the rest of the players who are in it. It is important to have tools to organize joint activities, because a guild that does not organize joint activities for everyone is a guild that will collapse in a short time.
  • Truth EternalTruth Eternal Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People, Alpha One
    Success, in terms of real achievement rather than community quality, always seems to be relative. Understanding where you rank against other guilds and why is beneficial. I'd like to understand how successful a guild/alliance is as far as monetary power (bank balance), member count, aggregate organized PvP ranking, wars won/lost, successful castle takes/holds, influence scores for guilds cross-referenced with social org influence, religion, etc.. And even better would be a "secret sauce" equation that aggregates the aggregates into a single guild rank so there's no ambiguity about who is the "most successful" guild on a server.
    Axiom | 18+ Gaming | joinaxiom.com
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  • TockzTockz Member
    World firsts.
    Top of dueling charts.
    Land owned
    Castles Owned x Time
    ....
    Are we fuckin' killing it and having a good time? Lets go.
    sigtestfin.png


  • meedxmeedx Member, Alpha One
    edited April 20
    Reputation.

    Leader boards and achievements help with this overall but even in games like classic wow with less world content to dominate and no leader boards or statistics, reputations for groups or guilds are still built and massively impactful on if you get group invites or just how the average player base treats you.

    So, just reputation as a whole, whatever type of guild it is, can gain notoriety in its field, crafters, gankers, trolls etc.

    Ultimately the best way to measure this is rankings, statistics or leader boards but if you can put in systems to facilitate all aspects of content it would help guilds or groups to achieve a good reputation, improve and just know where they stand.

    Without leader boards, rankings or statistics?

    Considering ashes will be a heavily player driven environment, add avenues for player choice in who is successful via events, fashion events, dueling tournaments, gvg tournaments, gathering or crafting time based events, putting people or groups in the public eye and giving them a platform to shine in/on via streams or server announcements would essentially have the same effect as static leader boards or rankings but would provide it in a more involved and interesting way, let reputations grow and foster rather than slapping a #1 next to someone's name.

    A server wide announcement, a discord announcement or a highlight on stream of a player or a group winning something makes it special and adds notoriety, rather than a name on a board.

  • StretchStretch Member
    My answer to the question:
    There are comments of world firsts or wars won which are sort of OK units of measurement for guilds but for me, I think a successful guild is one that has a high member retention or is known for being social and enjoyable to play with.

    Not only should people enjoy the game but they should also enjoy the people they play with. The game my guild mains, Archeage, we have members who don't play anymore but still chat in discord and join voice since we all get along so well and I think that's what every guild should strive for, to have a guild that "outlives the game they play" in a sense.

    How I think this could be implemented in a game:
    A "Guild Ranking" could be shown on the guild information page. It could have the usual rankings
    of [S, A, B, C, D] and these could be graded on guild interaction.
    For example: How active the guild is, guild activities, guild grouping, guild achievements where you need to have a certain amount of members to participate in etc.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men
    The amount of bones
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    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • A good guild is where the boys pog together and flex on some nerds together.
  • TrobTrob Member
    edited April 20
    @ measure the success:

    How many events or activities are achieved as a guild. It's not all about raids and dungeons. Sometimes it's about what everyone is able to accomplish together. Pooling resources, building things in the world. Getting together to compete and take down challenges as more than a small niche of players; as a guild. Every little bit counts and should be showcased in a guild achievements section for the guild and others outside the guild to see.

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    Trob
  • NeurotoxinNeurotoxin Member
    edited April 20
    If guild members are having a good time, and we can do the things set set out to do in forming and maintaining the guild, that's a sign of success. Gather rate and economic strength, total team DPS, K/D in open combat, or number of successful caravan and siege attacks or defenses, can be used as metrics, but having fun is really the most important measure of success.
  • Guild Gathering #3 - Measuring Success
    How do you measure your success as a guild in a game? What kinds of things would you like to see in Ashes of Creation to help you measure that success?
    I want to throw out what will probably be an unpopular opinion, guild ranking in a general sense is bad. Almost all of the comments I read above talk about ranking guilds against each other to determine "best guild." Once you rank you are implicitly telling players how to play the game. To me, that seems to be disservice to the massive nature of AoC. There will be five PvP castles and one server first for PvE content. Those six or so guilds are obviously on top at any particular moment. I feel like having a big banner telling me my guild's rank on the server based on an equation is just going to push people into a strange guild rank hunting meta. Please don't manufacture the fun out of the game. I believe the major guilds succeeding in PvP and PvE will be automatically rewarded by most of the systems available in the game.

    What I would like to see are measures of a guild's success compared to itself. For instance, even if my guild is not the first to down PvE content, a note or achievement with the date of completion, or better yet a trophy for a guild hall. Even if my guild doesn't sit in a castle, a hall of records about which node sieges we fought, or a cool furniture piece indicating how much money our guild stole from caravans. I would love to see thing like this implemented rather than a single equation ranking.
  • RintaRinta Member
    edited April 21
    It would be good to have something similar to Steam profile "Featured" panels, to showcase specific accomplishments / counters relevant to your guild.

    To elaborate:
    On Guild Profile page (both the public one, and the one you see when you open Guild Menu for your current guild), you (Guild Master) can showcase a number of accomplishments, which you can select from a very large list. These are not "achievements", but rather counters for specific actions your guild / guildmembers did. Each counter comes with several options on how to present the counter, so that smaller / more casual guilds can also showcase their smaller accomplishments without feeling completely inferior.

    Example for counter presentation:
    Let's say there's a World Boss called Green Dragon, and a counter for GD kills by guild members.
    It can be showcased in many different ways, depending on the guild's goals:
    - Defeated Green Dragon: 53 times (your guild regularly hunts GD, and you feel proud every time this counter goes up)
    - Defeated Green Dragon (your small guild only killed GD couple times, so you don't want to draw attention to the number of times - but it is the only World Boss you killed and you are very proud)
    - Rank #2 in Green Dragon kills (you are competing for top GD kills, so to you the rank is more important than the number of kills)

    Example for variety of accomplishments that could be showcased:
    - Monster kills - for specific type (World Boss, etc.), monster name, region, etc.
    - PvP kills - for enemies in specific guilds, for specific events (Caravan, Siege, in the wild...), etc.
    - Collected gatherables - for rare ones, or to demonstrate that your guild is #1 in collecting dandelions
    - Total gold accumulated by guild members, or avg earned gold per day per person, etc.
    - Caravan routes completed by guild members, or with guild protection
    - Legendary items crafted by guild members
    - Castle sieges - participation, conquests; for specific castle, overall; time held, # currently owned, etc.
    - Number of ships owned by guild members - overall, or for specific high-end ships
    - Node population in specific node - by % or by rank, to showcase that your guild "owns" that node
    - All of the above (if applicable) but over specific time period - last week/month/year
    - etc.

    This way every time I open Guild Menu - I see a measure of exactly what I consider being success for my specific guild.

    Certain counters should ideally only become available if your guild did corresponding action at least once, otherwise it might lead to spoilers (what if nobody found Green Dragon yet, or the only guild that found and killed it - keeps it a secret).
  • WatankaWatanka Member
    edited April 23
    Fully agree with SoggyBandaid.

    I'm more on the hardcore PvE side with raids etc but I agree that pushing any sort of ranking is a quite bad idea.
    The community will define a ranking by itself anyway but if the game try to say who are the "best", it also means that the less dedicated guilds or more "fun oriented" will probably be flagged as "bad" guild by any success measuring system.

    Nothing should be "measured". A simple visual reward showing that the guild is powerful is enough. It can be a rare trophy for their hall, a little icon next to each player's name in that guild etc. Just to allow them to show to others that they are strong. And that's enough.

    Another reason why it is not a good idea to measure success is that all guild have different objectives.
    An RP guild can consider to have achieved a great success just by having a good pool of RPers with a great ambiance and low turn-over. There are no way to measure this, that's only a feeling.

    I've been a guild leader of a GW2 raiding guild for almost two years. At some point we were not far behind world first kills. But I've never considered the guild to be a great success, because we had a lot of turn-over and not enough friendship inside the group. If a measuring system was in place, yeah this guild was a full success. But for peoples inside it, not necessarily.

    TL;DR : Don't try to "measure" success. Success means something different for everyone. Simply give displayable rewards for big achievements (killing a boss, holding a castle for X days, etc). That's enough.
    I'm a Tulnar ! So what ? fifi-60.png
  • FaDezZFaDezZ Member
    Back when i played Metin2 there were guild battles and every single time the fight was over it was displayed in the chat. You could bet that i've you were part of the winning guild you would be recognized and that was always a feeling of winning more than the accual fight itself.
  • TalanzoTalanzo Member
    edited April 20
    I would like to see MAJOR guild perks (unlockables, even if they are only cosmetics) that are only available through guilds. and maybe to even further it, Only usable if a player was in the guild during the guild achievement time. (Trying to create reason to stick around in guilds. Or to try for the achievement again if there are enough new players In the guild.)

    1. World firsts are a must!
    2. Top guilds with reputations that can change from month to month examples: wealthiest, most combatitive, friendliest, slayed the most creatures, harvested the most material, successfully defended most seiges, Escorted most caravans, crafted most legendaries.
    3. I think having seasons of PVP is already in place. Why not also have seasons of PVE were guilds could run dungeons/raids in full with the highest speed. And not have repeating rewards so that older guilds are more likely not to disappear. Having old cosmetics available to them that were only unlockable during the season. (Thinking World of warcraft challange modes but even more brutal! I like having achievement that majority of players cant obtain without significant skill.)
  • George BlackGeorge Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Maximum success is holding a castle, being able to kill the most epic raid bosses while fighting off enemy guilds. Having its guild members make names for themselves and be known as the best in their fields.

    Moderate success is owning a guild hall and be a fearsome danger to better guilds. In other games this meant winning against big guilds out in the open world in guerrila fights. A few famous members and most of the members having the best gear.
  • This is going to come off cheesy af but, If we're going what we're doing and enjoying it that's all that really matters. >.> but doing it good is a whole other thing, I have a quote for that from GTA. *achem* "Do you know how motorcycles work? Centrifugal inertia. Meaning the quicker your wheels go, the more stable you are. The faster we go, the harder we hit it, the more us brothers pull together." Easy to understand, easy to go with.
  • InixiaInixia Member
    edited April 20
    Hmm how to measure guild success...
    The end goal is obviously to have fun and for raiding guilds at least that means usually some form of progression (internal or external), but just that can be pretty misleading.

    To truly gauge the health of a guild there are usually a lot of smaller signs that something might be wrong that are hard to measure, even for what seems to be an otherwise successful guild:
    -Is the guild constantly in a recruitment loop? Trying to train new people to fill in gaps for the raid team while others leave? It might feel like things are stagnating/stuck for current members...
    -Do team members feel like they have an equitable chance to be a part of things (or at least that rewards are based on a fair system)? This definitely applies to in guild DKP/gear distribution.
    -Are the time requirements too pressing? Or not strict enough? Do you find it hard to get people in one place and ready? Sometimes people just have other commitments and over scheduling wears on their enjoyment of the game and vice versa.
    -Is the game not providing enough good progression incentives or activities and are players just stuck grinding old content for loot? This definitely happens the most between content updates and when content just isn't engaging enough. Challenges are important - people don't generally just play to win, they play to prove something by winning (or at least enjoy the experience of trying).
    -Is the guild a good social atmosphere for people? Or is there personal drama between members? I've actually seen an embarrassing amount of guild 'breakups' where people are forced to choose a side

    Any of these really can break guilds, even high level ones. Some of them are things the game needs to provide, but some are things the people in the guild need to figure out themselves. At the end of the day what makes a good guild is if people have a good connection to the people around them and are in an atmosphere they enjoy.
  • JyenhJyenh Member
    edited April 20
    Having dedicated, cooperative and active members striving to do things together as a guild on a regular basis, whether trade runs, pushing a node to be a specific race, etc.

    Working as a guild to create a really awesome guild house/hall/area in world. It's a great feeling to see a building in game with guild banners and thinking “that's an awesome guild.” though I think this is also because it builds guild recogniseability prestige, people know your guild and it's emblem, and sometimes it's players.

    I'd like to see names of guilds, or player names with a guild tag/emblem come up when they do awesome things in the world. Even if it's just finishing constructing something big, or pushing a node, maybe delivering stuff? Heck, even do something like the original guild wars series where they had a guild spotlight on the forums. You'd feel successful after that for sure.
  • AylokAylok Member
    There are two main ways that I measure guild success:
    1. Creating and building a sense of community between members.
    2. In game power and proficiency

    A sense of community is what most people look for when they are looking for a guild and I believe this is the most important measure of success. If a guild feels like a group of friends that you can be comfortable around and is welcoming to new players then it is certainly a successful guild. It is important to support this with in game systems. Guild members should be able to help each other out and game mechanics should encourage that.

    In game power is a more direct measure of a guild's success and it is also important. If you are a part of a guild that tops a weekly leaderboard or gets a world first kill on a raid then you can share a sense of accomplishment with your guildmates. This also needs to be supported with in-game mechanics, whether they be more direct like leaderboards and GvGs or indirect like server announcements on raid kills and upgradeable guild halls.

    I think that direct measures of a guild's power work best. If there is a weekly resetting leaderboard for guilds and you can see your guild slowly improving it feels awesome! And if you push for one of the top spots to get a fancy reward to share with your guildmates that's even better!

    Thank you for spending so much time gathering feedback and ideas on guild related things, communities are what make mmos so great! An mmo that supports communities well is a fantastic mmo in my book.
  • SirBarathonSirBarathon Member
    edited April 20
    Aylok wrote: »
    There are two main ways that I measure guild success:
    1. Creating and building a sense of community between members.
    2. In game power and proficiency

    A sense of community is what most people look for when they are looking for a guild and I believe this is the most important measure of success. If a guild feels like a group of friends that you can be comfortable around and is welcoming to new players then it is certainly a successful guild. It is important to support this with in game systems. Guild members should be able to help each other out and game mechanics should encourage that.

    In game power is a more direct measure of a guild's success and it is also important. If you are a part of a guild that tops a weekly leaderboard or gets a world first kill on a raid then you can share a sense of accomplishment with your guildmates. This also needs to be supported with in-game mechanics, whether they be more direct like leaderboards and GvGs or indirect like server announcements on raid kills and upgradeable guild halls.

    I think that direct measures of a guild's power work best. If there is a weekly resetting leaderboard for guilds and you can see your guild slowly improving it feels awesome! And if you push for one of the top spots to get a fancy reward to share with your guildmates that's even better!

    Thank you for spending so much time gathering feedback and ideas on guild related things, communities are what make mmos so great! An mmo that supports communities well is a fantastic mmo in my book.

    Overall agree with this dude.
    2 ways to measure guild sucess

    1-Community reach
    2-Power through land

    Both can interact and also both can work on their terms. Lookin' into the Nodes and War for space system, I guess that hopefully those types will need to interact a lot.

    Community reach Guilds normaly can be a fun guild to enjoy some friendship, they can be focus on competitive stuff but is not the main point. They're those guilds that chase PvE stuff, that plays 4fun, that focus RolePlaying, that focus on gettin data from the servers (like a Bard's guild), that create events for players, that focus on being mercenaries, focus on finding secrets, focus on costumes, etc. Usually they posses a lot of helping guildmates and a lot of charisma.

    Power through land Guilds are those that focus on PVP mostly. They measure sucess by who own more stuff, who gets more castles (or keep 'em castles for more time, even that castle with a lot of disadvantages that they sucessfuly protect), some wanna be the Guild with more money (probably there will be guilds only focus on trading goods - probably on a Economic node), some wanna control the market of some item, some wanna be the Guild that take an entiry continent. They mostly measure the sucess by force, they want to be a power to be recogn

    So, to resume, the sucess is measure by the goals of each guild. The Guild Masters and respective hieararchy should define what they are and, by the systems the game provides, there's should be ways to interact between the diferent types of Guilds.

    I'd love to see an afilliate system, a prospect system, a rivalry system and ally system. The afilliate could get some advantage other than only protection, the prospect could donate or participate of guilds affairs to learn about the game and the guild they are checkin', rivalry and ally system are really straight foward by it's own name.
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