PVP vs PVE

There has been a lot of discussion of PVP vs PVM. Something that seems to be a very common trend is that a lot of people who enjoy PVM exclusively are looked down upon due to their "insecurities and lack of skill". I couldn't disagree more about this statement. Having a strong PVP and PVM background from many different games there has always been a clear distinction between the two fields of thoughts.
An idea that came to mind (and i realize people have mentioned things like this before) - but having area's that have strong PVM content in it but be in a PVP zone. Much like the wilderness in Runescape or the zones in WoW. These area's would be rich with resources or npc's that would make PVM'ers realize the risk of going out to get it can or cannot outweigh the reward.
On other small thing that I have really come to notice in many MMO's is that the PVP side can be a very niche group of players and can sometimes (not always) be extremely toxic for the game. They hate any updates to PVP that decided by non PVP'ers. I know the same can be said for PVM'ers but these are things that I have noticed.
I do like the idea of sieges and plan to partake in them - but I would not want to have new players be forced into having to find a guild to simply play the game. Some players are the more solo types of players. I know this isn't a theme that Ashes is going for but I don't think they want to have new players vs the superpowers either. Essentially any new players after Beta even would be at a severe disadvantage vs guilds that have already been formed and established.

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Khronus

I'm failing to see the point of your post. Also, when you are referring to PVM do you mean PVE? Is the M for monsters?

If so, AoC will absolutely have a lot of PVE content in PVP zones. Every zone is a pvp zone so all pve content will create world pvp. Whether you choose to participate in this content is up to you as there are penalties for doing so. I personally will not kill on sight unless someone is a known POS or are a rival guild. I prefer to make friends (especially in this game where citizens banded have a lot of power and influence of the ever changing lands).

PvP will not be a very niche group of players in Ashes of Creation. This game will be FULL of pvp first players. As of now, only 20% of dungeons/raids will be instanced. That means that 80% of the raids and dungeons will be open world pvp should a player or group decide to engage. This style will be much different than most players are used to and it will require intelligent strategies from guilds everywhere to accurately execute quick decisions or die. It's going to be fun!

Inixia

I don't know why people keep asking about pvp players vs pve players.
pvp players would clearly win in that fight, I mean that's what they do all the time....

(kidding) my real answer is this - players might tend to end up in one or the other camp for the most part but they are both very important for the long term health of a game like this. A solely pve designed game is usually very content heavy, players tend to burn through non-progression areas pretty quickly and that places a lot of demand on a development team to keep them entertained - but its important for world buliding and immersion. With pvp the excitement mostly comes from other people and forming teams, so once the entry battlefields/mechanics are setup it basically keeps a more steady beneficial population playing the game external to updates. Both sides provide important feedback on balance and gameplay issues.

So it might be easy to think that high end raiding guilds and pvp contribute to toxicity (and any competitive gameplay does to an extent), but those features are also a major reason players come to the game at all. You can't just see the bad without the good too. The best way to fight toxicity is for the community to call it out and not incentivize it, and for the devs to address balance concerns - not to ignore one for the sake of the other (as some might suggest) or else you'll find that there is no community left to protect.

Jiraiya

Khronus wrote: »

I'm failing to see the point of your post. Also, when you are referring to PVM do you mean PVE? Is the M for monsters?

If so, AoC will absolutely have a lot of PVE content in PVP zones. Every zone is a pvp zone so all pve content will create world pvp. Whether you choose to participate in this content is up to you as there are penalties for doing so. I personally will not kill on sight unless someone is a known POS or are a rival guild. I prefer to make friends (especially in this game where citizens banded have a lot of power and influence of the ever changing lands).

PvP will not be a very niche group of players in Ashes of Creation. This game will be FULL of pvp first players. As of now, only 20% of dungeons/raids will be instanced. That means that 80% of the raids and dungeons will be open world pvp should a player or group decide to engage. This style will be much different than most players are used to and it will require intelligent strategies from guilds everywhere to accurately execute quick decisions or die. It's going to be fun!

I never said it would be niche, i was just stating that from previous game experiences all the pvp'ers knew it each other whether they be in separate guilds or not. And by PVM yes i mean PVE - not sure if this really matters or not but yeah I do realize ashes will have a lot of PVE content. I do hope that other PVP'ers will have the same mindset as you when you say that you will not kill just on sight. That would help keep the griefing levels down

Eathan

To PvP in open world you will have to flag up which has been noted to have some consequences for example if a flagged player attacks you they may drop far more loot as opposed to your raw resources which isn't a terrible loss. If people want to PvP people in open world they are going to be taking some risks, and honestly you might just kill your monster and some wanna be ganker and make home with some juicy loot

Okeydoke

Jiraiya wrote: »

]

I do hope that other PVP'ers will have the same mindset as you when you say that you will not kill just on sight. That would help keep the griefing levels down

The corruption system has been described as a system that will keep griefing levels down. We don't know the specifics of it yet. Inevitably some people are going to find the final implementation of it too strict and some will find it too lenient. Can't please everyone. But it's been sold to us as something that will do exactly that, keep griefing levels down. Down how far? One person's definition of "down" might be more than another person's definition of it. Who knows at this point.

People are worrying too much about corrupted players. What are you going to do when a node declares war on your node or a guild declares war on your guild. And then they spend all day in and around your node killing everyone they see. They won't be able to loot anything off of you, that only applies to the corruption system and red players. But they'll be able to stop you from going out harvesting and doing pve.

What are you gonna do? You can round up 40 players to go kill a pve boss for the 100th time. Round up 40 players or more to go kill the people that keep fucking with you. You're literally going to have to at times. That is the game.

Corrupted players can be dealt with the same way.

Khronus

Jiraiya wrote: »

Khronus wrote: »

I'm failing to see the point of your post. Also, when you are referring to PVM do you mean PVE? Is the M for monsters?

If so, AoC will absolutely have a lot of PVE content in PVP zones. Every zone is a pvp zone so all pve content will create world pvp. Whether you choose to participate in this content is up to you as there are penalties for doing so. I personally will not kill on sight unless someone is a known POS or are a rival guild. I prefer to make friends (especially in this game where citizens banded have a lot of power and influence of the ever changing lands).

PvP will not be a very niche group of players in Ashes of Creation. This game will be FULL of pvp first players. As of now, only 20% of dungeons/raids will be instanced. That means that 80% of the raids and dungeons will be open world pvp should a player or group decide to engage. This style will be much different than most players are used to and it will require intelligent strategies from guilds everywhere to accurately execute quick decisions or die. It's going to be fun!

I never said it would be niche, i was just stating that from previous game experiences all the pvp'ers knew it each other whether they be in separate guilds or not. And by PVM yes i mean PVE - not sure if this really matters or not but yeah I do realize ashes will have a lot of PVE content. I do hope that other PVP'ers will have the same mindset as you when you say that you will not kill just on sight. That would help keep the griefing levels down

It's an open world pvp MMORPG. No, not everyone will have my mindset and in fact there are guilds already forming with players who want to roam and kill everyone on sight. Expect that you will be killed on sight always.

Also, you said "I have really come to notice in many MMO's is that the PVP side can be a very niche group of players". ALL players in AoC will be pvpers. If not, you will be farmed for resources. If I find a PVE only guild, I will absolutely put them on kill on sight because you cannot come into AoC and not expect to pvp. That's silly and warrants your loss of goods. Killing low lvl players depends on what gathered goods they may have. Would I kill someone lower than me? Yes. Would I repeatedly kill them to be an asshole? Not at all. Once for sure then dip with the loot!

PvP only guilds will 100% know each other and they will work together unless something comes between them. It's a MASSIVE part of AoC and will truly define this game in the genre.

Jiraiya

"
PvP only guilds will 100% know each other and they will work together unless something comes between them. It's a MASSIVE part of AoC and will truly define this game in the genre. "

PVP is not the only thing that will "truly" define this game. Don't forget that. There are sooo many people that dont want to do either PVE or PVP and just want to craft and do other things within the game.

Talents

Jiraiya wrote: »

"
PVP is not the only thing that will "truly" define this game. Don't forget that. There are sooo many people that dont want to do either PVE or PVP and just want to craft and do other things within the game.

I mean, sure, but this isn't Final Fantasy 14, you will need to participate in PvE and PvP sometime.

George_Black

Saying PvM instead of PvE? Ima ignore your text and just leave this taunting post here

Dygz

Jiraiya wrote: »

There has been a lot of discussion of PVP vs PVM. Something that seems to be a very common trend is that a lot of people who enjoy PVM exclusively are looked down upon due to their "insecurities and lack of skill". I couldn't disagree more about this statement. Having a strong PVP and PVM background from many different games there has always been a clear distinction between the two fields of thoughts.
An idea that came to mind (and i realize people have mentioned things like this before) - but having area's that have strong PVM content in it but be in a PVP zone. Much like the wilderness in Runescape or the zones in WoW. These area's would be rich with resources or npc's that would make PVM'ers realize the risk of going out to get it can or cannot outweigh the reward.
On other small thing that I have really come to notice in many MMO's is that the PVP side can be a very niche group of players and can sometimes (not always) be extremely toxic for the game. They hate any updates to PVP that decided by non PVP'ers. I know the same can be said for PVM'ers but these are things that I have noticed.
I do like the idea of sieges and plan to partake in them - but I would not want to have new players be forced into having to find a guild to simply play the game. Some players are the more solo types of players. I know this isn't a theme that Ashes is going for but I don't think they want to have new players vs the superpowers either. Essentially any new players after Beta even would be at a severe disadvantage vs guilds that have already been formed and established.

Yeah, the "due to their insecurities and lack of skill" is PVPer bullshit.
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you lack the skill and doesn't mean you're insecure about.

When you put strong PvM content in a PvP zone, you just enrage the PvMers. Which, in turn, angers the PvPers.
"Why are you in a PvP zone if you don't want to PvP!!!???!!!"
On the EQNext forums, suggestions like this would get people temporary bans and the thread locked after a handful of pages.

Dygz

Khronus wrote: »

AoC will absolutely have a lot of PVE content in PVP zones. Every zone is a pvp zone so all pve content will create world pvp. Whether you choose to participate in this content is up to you as there are penalties for doing so. I personally will not kill on sight unless someone is a known POS or are a rival guild. I prefer to make friends (especially in this game where citizens banded have a lot of power and influence of the ever changing lands).

Interesting point.
Every zone in Ashes is a PvX Zone. And then some areas are more PvP-centric than others.
Castles are going to more PvP-centric than other areas, once players take over the castles. So, in the context of Ashes with regard to the OP, that is where I imagine the suggestion to put strong PVM content would fit.
That being said - initially the Castles will be owned by strong mobs, so it truly does fit.
Zones where Corruption is active are effectively, primarily PvM/PvE zones. They just aren't PvM/PvE-only zones.

PvP will not be a very niche group of players in Ashes of Creation. This game will be FULL of pvp first players. As of now, only 20% of dungeons/raids will be instanced. That means that 80% of the raids and dungeons will be open world pvp should a player or group decide to engage. This style will be much different than most players are used to and it will require intelligent strategies from guilds everywhere to accurately execute quick decisions or die. It's going to be fun!

Hardcore PvPers will still be a niche group of players in Ashes.
The foundational playstyle philosophies are not going to change.
Ashes won't be full of hardcore PvPers. There will likely be way more casual PvPers, PvMers/PvEers and hardcore Crafters than than there are hardcore PvPers.
Castle Sieges, Node Sieges and Caravans are objective based, so a lot of people participating in those will be doing so from a PvMer/ PvEer and Crafter perspective rather than from a PvP combat perspective.
It's all just going through your hardcore PvPer filter so you see more hardcore PvP combat than will truly be there.

Dygz

George Black wrote: »

Saying PvM instead of PvE? Ima ignore your text and just leave this taunting post here

(I had to Google the meaning.)

Dygz

Jiraiya wrote: »

PVP is not the only thing that will "truly" define this game. Don't forget that. There are sooo many people that dont want to do either PVE or PVP and just want to craft and do other things within the game.

Yeah....I don't know how you can have a PvP-only or PvE-only guild in Ashes.
And, I don't know how people would be recognizing those aspects of the guild while playing the game.
A guild could be very well known to have excellent Crafters. That would not mean that everyone in the guild only Crafts and that there are only a few highly skilled hardcore PvPer members.

nilv

The only difference comes in the mentality, PvP players are going to do anything in their power to WIN. It doesn't matter how much boring PvE we have to do, if it increases our chances of winning, We will do it. Whereas there is a large amount of PVE players that are not willing to get out of their comfort zone to do PvP. Instead these players are going from MMORPG to MMORPG trying to change the game to fit their playstyle. Which is really the only reason why this whole PvP players vs PvE players is even a thing.

This game isn’t going to be some kind of survival game, you are not going to get clapped by chinese players the moment you spawn. But if you are not willing to do PvP, you are most definitely going to be denied of doing lots of the “endgame” content that’s for sure.

BigRamble

Part of what I look forward to in Ashes is that PvP will be meaningful.

My first MMO experiences were solo playing a themepark MMO on a PvP server, and even though that was less than a decade ago, my only real memory of a lot of the PvP was one genuinely frustrating ganking, a couple odd fights, and then the rest of the game no different to when I later moved to a PvE server.

The corruption mechanic as it stands may call to a few prideful jerks who get off on ganking players who clearly aren't fighting back. But other than the emotional gain is they take some of thier victims certs, and gain corruption. They then deal with being flagged as corrupt, death penalty 4 times normal & risk of dropping gear, attacked by town guards, and hunted by bounty hunters. It won't take long for people paying a sub fee to give up that sport for actively hunting caravans for greater material rewards, even greater victim frustration at losing large amounts of certs, and No penalties.

Parts of this game are a muggers paradise, but it ain't random ganking PvErs.

Dygz

nilv wrote: »

The only difference comes in the mentality, PvP players are going to do anything in their power to WIN. It doesn't matter how much boring PvE we have to do, if it increases our chances of winning, We will do it. Whereas there is a large amount of PVE players that are not willing to get out of their comfort zone to do PvP. Instead these players are going from MMORPG to MMORPG trying to change the game to fit their playstyle. Which is really the only reason why this whole PvP players vs PvE players is even a thing.

It is all about mentality and really has nothing to do with comfort zone.
When I'm not in the mood for PvP combat, I don't want to be forced by some other player into PvP combat.
When I am in the mood, I will go to a battlegrounds and participate in PvP. When it's MY choice; not someone else's choice.
PvP players love PvP way more than PvE players do.
It's like if PvE players could run up to you while you're in the middle of a PvP battle and toggle your flags to PvE-only and then you have to harvest 50 flowers before you can get back to PvP. That's the issue.

bloodprophet

Why do people feel the need to to separate the 2 can't it just be a game we all play? Or am I one of the few that enjoys most of the play styles. I don't care for RP but I get it that others do. Just let people play without trying to segregate them.

Bricktop

Ashes of Creation will introduce a lot of dynamics that many newer MMORPG players aren't familiar with. People who have only played WoW, GW2, etc. While it is certainly possible you could end up getting killed multiple times in one night there will be many ways for players to assist with dealing with PKers so that they can put an end to it before it progresses to that point. A big part of this game will be turning towards the community for help.

The FIRST time you get PKed you immediately get into node chat and say "There's a red in the northwest part of the field of sorrows, near the demongoat spawns". I promise you there will immediately be 5+ people running straight there for the chance of getting free gear. People will want to protect their fellow citizens of the node. Other people are getting PKed by the same red and node chat starts exploding. People will petition the mayor to get the PKer on the "Enemy of the State" list and suddenly they are now Kill on Sight to every single citizen of the node free of consequences. Peoples reputation will follow them, their guilds reputation will reflect on them. They might have a difficult time getting PUGs for anything you can think of because their guild makes a lot of enemies.

My own guild for example used to PK everybody and anybody we wanted in Archeage, it was nothing like how guilds operated in L2. The consequences weren't very severe, we didn't need feel the need to work with all that many people except other very small PvP guilds we were friends with, it didn't matter how many people didn't like us. This game is the opposite, we want to work with people, groups, mayors, and guilds who are residing in/around the node(s) that the guild is dedicating it's efforts towards. There is a symbiotic relationship there. They can help us in various ways and we most likely can help them in various ways with everybody benefitting off the deal. We don't want our fellow citizens getting smoked while they are contributing progress/taxes/materials/whatever towards the node, which is in turn contributing towards my guild in one way or another.

You really shouldn't be getting PKed multiple times in a short time frame in this game. It shouldn't progress to the point where you are getting killed multiple times. It's gonna take extended lengths of time to even walk back to the area you were killed in. You will know that the particular area isn't safe and there's 4 other areas you could go to. If you are getting PKed multiple times chances are you have really angered somebody who is directly targeting and actively hunting you for a reason, or you are allowing yourself to be.

Just some thoughts reading the various threads about PvP vs PvE and corruption/PKers the last week or so.

tautau

Excellent analysis @Bricktop , well said.

Regarding prior posts, it may be a bit artificial to look at the player base as a dichotomy, that someone is either a PvP or a PvE player. I think that is more like a line with PVP on one end and PVE on the other and we each fall somewhere between the two extremes. Actually, we might move back and forth a bit depending on the day, our mood, what we need to get done in the game, which of our pals are logged in at the moment, and so forth.

I know in L2 sometimes after work I just felt like farming mobs solo. On siege days when we had a castle I was full of piss and vinegar. Other days I was up to whatever my guildmates felt like.

So....that means that Ashes will be great in having the full mix of different things to do to fit the player and the player's mood. Just like in the 'real world', the more diverse the population mix, the more fun it is for everyone!

Recluse74

@Bricktop Nailed it..

Games like Lineage 2 and AoC are about communities. Just like in real life, you have a smoother time progressing if you go with the flow and help others out as they will help you when the time comes. Going against the grain will grant you some satisfaction and some rewards, but in the end your reputation and your past will come to haunt you in both PvE and PvP.

I would guess most PvP will take place in designated PvP events, no loss and all gain and you get to scratch that PvP itch at the same time. Well.. some loss if you are the one defending and lose... but you can get that back with some time and effort.

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