Active blocking

I've been reading up on the active blocking discussion and how the metrics for successfully blocking were abysmal, but also the idea of utilizing waterfall stats which I think is a great middle ground.

But my concern is more with how it feels to play with active blocking. As a tank you are meant to be the defender of the party standing in between when someone goes after your party members. One of the best feelings about tanking in Tera was the active blocking and simply standing in the way of an ability directed at someone else. Having looked at the system used in New World they also add an aggro bonus on intercepting a skill like that, further adding to the rewarding feeling like you are actively stepping into the line of fire, protecting your party, and forcing the enemy's attack on you, because you will not allow anyone else to fall before you do.

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George_Black

Active blocking should be an ability for the knight and fighter class and it could work as a charge/toggle skill that increases defence for the duration you hold it.

Dodge should be an ability for rogue and fighter.

Obviously fighter should be worse at utilizing block than knight, and worse at dodging than a rogue.

Not all classes should use block and dodge and not all weapons as well.

Tera did the best implementation of active block and dodge.

I am very surprised that Jeff Bard mentioned that they faced issues with active block. I hope they can overcome them and deliver a solid combat.

krijos

Absolutely, not everyone should have dodge and block. Diversity brings unique flavour to classes which doubles down on the RPG feel.

I can see fighter doubling down on dodge or block through secondary archtype augments too.

It would be interesting to see how summoners would play a tanking summon in such a system. As far as Tera goes Mystic's tanking pet had no tools to actively mitigate and was generally very lackluster, and I think it would be more frustrating than anything to micro manage a pet for active blocking and positioning. But I do see the possibility of the summoner themselves stepping in the way and using a magical barrier, possibly with a far greater risk/reward trade off where a missed block might really hurt, or even kill, them.

raylegh

Now that you mention it would be great if mages could also create some kind of mana/ice shield too. Some sort of blocking to not be super vulnerable.

Obviously not very op.

HappiEngi

krijos wrote: »

Absolutely, not everyone should have dodge and block. Diversity brings unique flavour to classes which doubles down on the RPG feel.

Never thought of this but it makes sense! I feel everyone should have the ability to block but in a different way. Like raylegh mentioning mages with a mana/ice shield while rogues would have dodge and fighter/knight an actual block

Skyra

I agree with diverse type of active damage mitigation like mana shield, blocking, parry dogging etc. And they should have different ups and downs. Mana shield should be great against magical damage, blocking against physical, dogging against single target damage etc. Active damage mitigation brings more engaging combat.

Dygz

Well, in an MMORPG with action combat abilities, it's important for every archetype to have either active dodge, active block or active parry.

Khronus

As a tank, I am not interested in an active block option at all. It's amazing in single player games but it's too much in an mmorpg.

Trying to think of it from a realistic perspective - It wouldn't feel right to simply get an aggro bonus for standing in the way of an attack. I want my aggro to be based on the skills and combos that I use. I want my priority to be positioning the boss in a way that mitigates the damage the raid is taking as well as allows my players to deal as much damage as possible (raid boss weaknesses would be cool but for a different topic that I will post soon).

One thing that is concerning with a system like this is that AoC is heavily pvp leaning. If pve was the primary focus of end game content, an active block design would be great. Being that pvp is the focus, an active block on one or numerous classes will take away from balancing and force less skills available (since simply blocking an attack is better than any other skills that could be used). It would be fun to frantically block and attack (much like in Last Oasis...I found that combat system REALLY enjoyable), but not in this setting.

What I think would work would be an ability "Brace Yourself" or something of that nature. When activated, it would give you "X" amount of time where your character completely blocks any attacks received. It would have to be on a longer cooldown of course. An ability like this could be used to save for specific attacks once a player knows a boss fight or against players when they expect strong attacks to come their way. Even this may still be too OP imo.

Dygz

Ashes doesn't have an endgame.
Ashes is PvX at all levels - including max level.

The "Brace Yourself" ability seems way worse than an active block button. Active block you can miss-time.
And while you're hitting the active block button, that is one less ability button you can activate.

mcstackerson

Khronus wrote: »

As a tank, I am not interested in an active block option at all. It's amazing in single player games but it's too much in an mmorpg.

Trying to think of it from a realistic perspective - It wouldn't feel right to simply get an aggro bonus for standing in the way of an attack. I want my aggro to be based on the skills and combos that I use. I want my priority to be positioning the boss in a way that mitigates the damage the raid is taking as well as allows my players to deal as much damage as possible (raid boss weaknesses would be cool but for a different topic that I will post soon).

One thing that is concerning with a system like this is that AoC is heavily pvp leaning. If pve was the primary focus of end game content, an active block design would be great. Being that pvp is the focus, an active block on one or numerous classes will take away from balancing and force less skills available (since simply blocking an attack is better than any other skills that could be used). It would be fun to frantically block and attack (much like in Last Oasis...I found that combat system REALLY enjoyable), but not in this setting.

What I think would work would be an ability "Brace Yourself" or something of that nature. When activated, it would give you "X" amount of time where your character completely blocks any attacks received. It would have to be on a longer cooldown of course. An ability like this could be used to save for specific attacks once a player knows a boss fight or against players when they expect strong attacks to come their way. Even this may still be too OP imo.

Have you played with active block in a MMO?

You should still need to use attacks to keep aggro. A good tank is able to block the big hits while weaving in their skills. I'm not sure why position would become less important with active block.

Yes it will change how things are balanced but i don't think it takes away. When using active block, you usually can't use other skills so it's a choice. Yes, you can hide behind your shield but you aren't doing anything. If you give an example of a skill that you think is unusable with active block then i can tell you why it still has a place.

I prefer active block over a defensive cooldown. It's just another thing that makes me feel like i have more control over your character. I also think it helps with healer balance if they don't need to offset all the damage big bosses do.

Ramirez

krijos wrote: »

I've been reading up on the active blocking discussion and how the metrics for successfully blocking were abysmal, but also the idea of utilizing waterfall stats which I think is a great middle ground.

But my concern is more with how it feels to play with active blocking. As a tank you are meant to be the defender of the party standing in between when someone goes after your party members. One of the best feelings about tanking in Tera was the active blocking and simply standing in the way of an ability directed at someone else. Having looked at the system used in New World they also add an aggro bonus on intercepting a skill like that, further adding to the rewarding feeling like you are actively stepping into the line of fire, protecting your party, and forcing the enemy's attack on you, because you will not allow anyone else to fall before you do.

You played Elyon last week? I Really enjoyed the tank with active block consuming stamina per time and per hits, was a really good feature.. And players/mobs can still hit on your back and sides

Ramirez

Khronus wrote: »

As a tank, I am not interested in an active block option at all. It's amazing in single player games but it's too much in an mmorpg.

If you get an closed beta key try elyon warlord class

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sxrXdqJjDE

Khronus

Ramirez wrote: »

Khronus wrote: »

As a tank, I am not interested in an active block option at all. It's amazing in single player games but it's too much in an mmorpg.

If you get an closed beta key try elyon warlord class

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sxrXdqJjDE

Yeah sorry, this doesn't look fun at all. Standing in one spot and blocking when needed? I get that different fights can be more immersive with this style but not for me. Also, this seemed like a lesser version of monster hunter combat and a slower/more boring version of dynasty warriors.

Nagash

If my memory servers didn't we have a shield block in APOC?

Dygz

Khronus wrote: »

Yeah sorry, this doesn't look fun at all. Standing in one spot and blocking when needed? I get that different fights can be more immersive with this style but not for me. Also, this seemed like a lesser version of monster hunter combat and a slower/more boring version of dynasty warriors.

Interesting. I dunno if I would necessarily call that standing in one spot, but...
I kinda prefer having the Tank stand mostly in one spot so that Rogues can run around behind the target to backstab. Also, if aoe damage is focused in front of the target...towards the Tank... the rest of us in the group can attack from the flanks and avoid that damage. Which is much better than everyone else in the group having to run all over the place as the target/mob follows a moving Tanks.
I mean, irl, tanks are pretty much known to basically stay in one spot and soak damage. They aren't running circles around the enemy.

Also, that was not slow combat.
Pantheon has slow combat.
EQ has slow combat.
That vid has combat that is faster than WoW...and WoW is faster than EQ and Pantheon.

mcstackerson

Khronus wrote: »

Ramirez wrote: »

Khronus wrote: »

As a tank, I am not interested in an active block option at all. It's amazing in single player games but it's too much in an mmorpg.

If you get an closed beta key try elyon warlord class

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sxrXdqJjDE

Yeah sorry, this doesn't look fun at all. Standing in one spot and blocking when needed? I get that different fights can be more immersive with this style but not for me. Also, this seemed like a lesser version of monster hunter combat and a slower/more boring version of dynasty warriors.

You have me a little confused. How is what is in that video any different than a game without it with the exception of him having to press a key to block an attack instead of just standing there and taking it. Are you trying to imply that he can never move or has no reason to position the boss?

Could you show me an example of tank gameplay that you like so we can talk about what would change about it if active block was implemented?

raylegh

Skyra wrote: »

I agree with diverse type of active damage mitigation like mana shield, blocking, parry dogging etc. And they should have different ups and downs. Mana shield should be great against magical damage, blocking against physical, dogging against single target damage etc. Active damage mitigation brings more engaging combat.

Yea it looks like fun. I liked the idea of mages having a mana shield for magical attacks, and an ice wall to stop physical attacks.

Curiously I searched if it has been implemented in some other mmo and WoW has done it with the exact same name (ice wall), and it was recently. xDD

Asgerr

I like the idea of the active block (say with a right click perhaps) should be limited to Tanks and Fighters.

On the other hand, I also think it would make sense for it to be available to everyone else by speccing into the shield weapon tree.

So that is: base skill for tanks and fighters. Must be specced into for the rest, and only with a shield equipped.

This would limit the use by other classes who might need other arms to be at peak performance, or who might otherwise suffer from a lack of skill points, by speccing into the shield tree.

Khronus

@mcstackerson You're the one who has me confused lol. This video is a very poor example to get the OPs point across.

Yeah, I played last oasis and did VERY well in pvp. It was entertaining to say the least (quad directional block

@Dygz You're right, there are slower games out there. This I would still consider this slow combat. He clearly used abilities just to make it look flashy.

Are we watching the same 41 second video? It looks like shit gameplay. He is fighting a group of mobs that all look like they are cluttered with poor pathing. He leaps onto one of them for some reason and then back peddles into position so the group clumps up again. Then whirlwind, leap backwards, charge in, AOE attack, and ground smash only to finish them off while they are stunned. wow....exciting.

Even worse, he goes up against a bigger mob and literally doesn't move at all. He stands there and rotates abilities + blocking.

I understand your view on a cooldown ability to block vs being able to actively block. I see the positives from both but I simply prefer to time my cooldowns vs actively blocking.

Dygz

Seems to me that it's a demo of abilities/skills rather than a demo of optimal/uber gameplay.

AntVictus

Nagash wrote: »

If my memory servers didn't we have a shield block in APOC?

We did...but with the stamina system it was 100% boo boo. Even Paladin's Might was pretty bad.

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