Do you have a source for similar looking gnomes, or is it an opinion formed for the purposes of being a contrarian?
Do I really need a source for a opinion? Not making a statement of fact , art is subjective. My own judgement is base off the in game models I saw. You are free to disagree.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2021
Yes.
You can have the opinion that the world is flat if you want to.
Doesn't mean people won't debunk that opinion.
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ThexBlackxKnightMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yes.
You can have the opinion that the world is flat if you want to.
Doesn't mean people won't debunk that opinion.
You cant also prove they don't look like gnomes to those that think they do , like I said art is subjective, the world being round is a fact , big difference there.
Do you have a source for similar looking gnomes, or is it an opinion formed for the purposes of being a contrarian?
Do I really need a source for a opinion? Not making a statement of fact , art is subjective. My own judgement is base off the in game models I saw. You are free to disagree.
You kind of do.
I mean, I can say that I think they look like cucumbers to me, and by your logic that would mean you have to consider that a valid opinion for someone to hold, and Intrepid would need to give that opinion the same weight as you thinking they look like gnomes - when really all that means is I am actually mistaken as to what a cucumber looks like.
Art is subjective in terms of whether you like it or dislike it. It isn't really subjective in terms of thinking it looks like something different - barring the world of abstract art.
Do you have a source for similar looking gnomes, or is it an opinion formed for the purposes of being a contrarian?
Do I really need a source for a opinion? Not making a statement of fact , art is subjective. My own judgement is base off the in game models I saw. You are free to disagree.
You kind of do.
I mean, I can say that I think they look like cucumbers to me, and by your logic that would mean you have to consider that a valid opinion for someone to hold, and Intrepid would need to give that opinion the same weight as you thinking they look like gnomes - when really all that means is I am actually mistaken as to what a cucumber looks like.
Art is subjective in terms of whether you like it or dislike it. It isn't really subjective in terms of thinking it looks like something different - barring the world of abstract art.
Obviously a carrot and a cat are very different things , but Dwarves and Gnomes are very similar and been depicted in art in many different variations that makes it hard for someone to claim what this race should look like as fact. You can only give your opinion of what your ideal interpretation of Dwarf is and what you think it should like in game, it really cant be proven right or wrong. You can pick a random picture of a Dwarf and say that is what Dwarf is and I can pick a completely different picture of Dwarf and say no that is what Dwarf is, who is right? My opinion is if you put pointy hats on the Dwarf models in game they will look like Gnomes , doesn't mean I am right , just my opinion of what I think they look like.
You can only give your opinion of what your ideal interpretation of Dwarf is and what you think it should like in game, it really cant be proven right or wrong.
I'm not debating whether you think the Dwarves are your ideal or not, I am debating that you think they look like gnomes.
Believe it or not, your opinions are literally a result of your previous experience. If you do believe that the Dwarves shown to us look like gnomes, then that has to be because you have previously seen an IP that had gnomes that look like the Dwarves we have been shown.
If you have not seen that, then that simply can't be your opinion on it.
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ThexBlackxKnightMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You can only give your opinion of what your ideal interpretation of Dwarf is and what you think it should like in game, it really cant be proven right or wrong.
I'm not debating whether you think the Dwarves are your ideal or not, I am debating that you think they look like gnomes.
Believe it or not, your opinions are literally a result of your previous experience. If you do believe that the Dwarves shown to us look like gnomes, then that has to be because you have previously seen an IP that had gnomes that look like the Dwarves we have been shown.
If you have not seen that, then that simply can't be your opinion on it.
You right about previous IPs coloring my opinion , my ideal Dwarf is from the Warhammer Fantasy , a Dwarf that looks like he can rip your head off and juggle with it. Dwarves in Alpha 1 look a little small to me. I am not Dwarf player however so , it wont effect me much if they keep the current look.
You can only give your opinion of what your ideal interpretation of Dwarf is and what you think it should like in game, it really cant be proven right or wrong.
I'm not debating whether you think the Dwarves are your ideal or not, I am debating that you think they look like gnomes.
Believe it or not, your opinions are literally a result of your previous experience. If you do believe that the Dwarves shown to us look like gnomes, then that has to be because you have previously seen an IP that had gnomes that look like the Dwarves we have been shown.
If you have not seen that, then that simply can't be your opinion on it.
You right about previous IPs coloring my opinion , my ideal Dwarf is from the Warhammer Fantasy , a Dwarf that looks like he can rip your head off and juggle with it. Dwarves in Alpha 1 look a little small to me. I am not Dwarf player however so , it wont effect me much if they keep the current look.
Cool.
None of that explains why you think they look like gnomes.
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ThexBlackxKnightMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
None of that explains why you think they look like gnomes.
I said the Dwarves look smaller in game then my ideal of what a Dwarf is , Gnomes are smaller the dwarves. I think the pictures posted by Asgerr pretty much covers my opinion.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What's the source of those Gnomes?
The first one could be a Gnome in bulky clothing, sure.
The second one is for D&D Deck of Many Things - That's not Pathfinder.
When I do a Google search for the female - it returns Dwarves; not Gnomes.
The last one - as far as I can tell, what makes that a Gnome is the pointy hat. I'm pretty sure that is not Pathfinder, either.
@ThexBlackxKnight
I figured you were using Warhammer as a reference, but Steven is not using Warhammer as a reference.
Steven is not using Pathafinder as a reference.
"A gnome is a short humanoid, one of the most bizarre and alien of the civilized races of Golarion. They tend to be around three feet in height and unnervingly slender, although slightly taller than halflings."
@ThexBlackxKnight
I figured you were using Warhammer as a reference, but Steven is not using Warhammer as a reference.
Steven is not using Pathafinder as a reference.
"A gnome is a short humanoid, one of the most bizarre and alien of the civilized races of Golarion. They tend to be around three feet in height and unnervingly slender, although slightly taller than halflings."
What is your obsession with Pathfinder? I said that Dwarves and Gnomes look alike in a lot of artwork in a past post. Pathfinder made gnomes look more like fae like pixies without wings because they were trying to be different.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Pathfinder is Steven's inspiration for Ashes of Creation. That is the franchise with which Steven created the world(s) and the lore. So, you should expect the races to be like they are in Pathfinder.
If Steven created the world and lore using Warhammer, you should expect the races to be like they are in Warhammer.
If Steven created the world and lore using Middle Earth, you should expect the races to be like they are on Middle Earth.
None of that explains why you think they look like gnomes.
I said the Dwarves look smaller in game then my ideal of what a Dwarf is , Gnomes are smaller the dwarves. I think the pictures posted by Asgerr pretty much covers my opinion.
So, you don't think they look like gnomes, you think they look roughly the size you think a gnome should be.
I mean, I can say that I think they look like cucumbers to me, and by your logic that would mean you have to consider that a valid opinion for someone to hold, and Intrepid would need to give that opinion the same weight as you thinking they look like gnomes - when really all that means is I am actually mistaken as to what a cucumber looks like.
Art is subjective in terms of whether you like it or dislike it. It isn't really subjective in terms of thinking it looks like something different - barring the world of abstract art.
A fantasy gnome is not a real world thing. It's an abstract thing in a sense. Your opinion of what a gnome should look like is no more or less coloured by what you have experienced in life than anybody else's opinion. Nor any more or less valid than any other persons opinion. It's completely made up and thus 100% subjective. It doesn't have to be justified by anyone to anyone. At all. Intended or not, a few people in this thread come off as if they are some kind of arbiter of valid opinions on what a dwarf or gnome looks like, or that they have some kind of authority on the matter. They aren't and they don't.
What a cucumber looks like is not a 100% subjective thing, because it actually exists in the real world, unlike gnomes. That's a really nonsensical and illogical example you used there to try to prove a point.
However, if a game developer makes a fantasy universe in which gnomes actually look like cucumbers, well, then gnomes look like cucumbers in that universe. It's added to the list of different ways a gnome can look in fantasy. People are then free to dislike or like that as they please of course, and to express that opinion and ask the game developer to change it. If enough people dislike it the game developer might consider changing it, because it'll hurt people's enjoyment of the game, and thus sales.
The above should be an easy concept to grasp. The only objective truth is that there are no objective truths in this matter. There are no facts when it comes what fantasy gnomes or dwarves look like. There are only preferences based on people's life experiences.
What a majority of the people have been asking for in the poll is changes to how dwarfs look, based on their preference. That's it. It's fine to argue against changing the dwarfs, but please do it by stating your own preference on how they should look.
I hope Intrepid makes that official poll. I'd be willing to bet a majority will want the current dwarf models changed in that poll as well. What Intrepid does with the data is up to them of course.
This is true, but the rest of your post does not follow on from this.
A gnome is a fantasy thing.
This means that someone that has had no interaction with a fantasy IP that has gnomes in it will have no opinion of what a gnome should look like.
Anyone that has had interactions with fantasy IP's with gnomes will have their opinion of what a gnome should be shaped based on how gnomes were presented in those fantasy IP's.
Is there any of that you disagree with?
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ThexBlackxKnightMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
None of that explains why you think they look like gnomes.
I said the Dwarves look smaller in game then my ideal of what a Dwarf is , Gnomes are smaller the dwarves. I think the pictures posted by Asgerr pretty much covers my opinion.
So, you don't think they look like gnomes, you think they look roughly the size you think a gnome should be.
This is a dungeon and dragons artwork of a Gnome , I can recreate that look with the Dwarf models in game if they stay the way they are minus the pointy ears of coarse. Same body shape of current models.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
A bit thinner than what is in the game.
But, also....Ashes doesn't have Gnomes.
What's the source of those Gnomes?
The first one could be a Gnome in bulky clothing, sure.
The second one is for D&D Deck of Many Things - That's not Pathfinder.
When I do a Google search for the female - it returns Dwarves; not Gnomes.
The last one - as far as I can tell, what makes that a Gnome is the pointy hat. I'm pretty sure that is not Pathfinder, either.
Allow me to repeat myself then, since you selectively pick what arguments you (mistakenly) think you can "win" on.
Our dwarves don't look like those in Pathfinder
Our elves don't look like those in Pathfinder
Our orcs don't look like those in Pathfinder.
Tulnar aren't even a Pathfinder thing.
So tell me why we should adhere to this just because the world is loosely based on Steven's Pathfinder games?
To dismiss a D&D looking one because they're from D&D.... You do realise that Pathfinder is essentially an offshoot of D&D? The changed enough things so as to not fall into lawsuit territory, but they're virtually the same.
So your entire argument of "Yes, because Pathfinder" is incorrect.
And I found all those pictures by simply typing Gnomes in fantasy (because as you often remind people, this is a fantasy setting. And a high fantasy one, regardless of how incorrect Noaani wants to be about factual definitions).
So if everyone perceives them to be gnomish, what makes your opinion supersede everyone else's perception of reality? Try to answer with something other than "Steven plays pathfinder" please, trite and weak arguments simply bog down things.
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ThexBlackxKnightMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
A bit thinner than what is in the game.
But, also....Ashes doesn't have Gnomes.
Did I say they have Gnomes? I would say this picture the Dwarves looks thinner then the gnome art I posted.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2021
The male Dwarf does not. And neither of the current in-game models are as thin as the D&D pic you posted.
In a world without Gnomes, Dwarves can cover both.
Semantics , its pretty close and I can could make a dwarf character that looks like that gnome picture and be close in height too since the dwarves in Ashes are smaller then other depiction of dwarves.
Comments
To me they do look like gnomes , yay for opinions.
Do you have a source for similar looking gnomes, or is it an opinion formed for the purposes of being a contrarian?
Do I really need a source for a opinion? Not making a statement of fact , art is subjective. My own judgement is base off the in game models I saw. You are free to disagree.
You can have the opinion that the world is flat if you want to.
Doesn't mean people won't debunk that opinion.
You cant also prove they don't look like gnomes to those that think they do , like I said art is subjective, the world being round is a fact , big difference there.
Our dwarves don't look like those.
Our elves don't look like those.
Our orcs don't look like those.
Tulnar aren't even a Pathfinder thing.
So tell me why we should adhere to this just because the world is loosely based on Steven's Pathfinder games?
These are also gnomes:
And they look kinda like AoC dwarves or EQ ones
What about these dwarfs? XD
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Oh, they're hideous. I must shy away from the picture!
You kind of do.
I mean, I can say that I think they look like cucumbers to me, and by your logic that would mean you have to consider that a valid opinion for someone to hold, and Intrepid would need to give that opinion the same weight as you thinking they look like gnomes - when really all that means is I am actually mistaken as to what a cucumber looks like.
Art is subjective in terms of whether you like it or dislike it. It isn't really subjective in terms of thinking it looks like something different - barring the world of abstract art.
I hope you're joking. This one actually looks like a gnome
I believe every picture in Asgerrs post was a gnome.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Obviously a carrot and a cat are very different things , but Dwarves and Gnomes are very similar and been depicted in art in many different variations that makes it hard for someone to claim what this race should look like as fact. You can only give your opinion of what your ideal interpretation of Dwarf is and what you think it should like in game, it really cant be proven right or wrong. You can pick a random picture of a Dwarf and say that is what Dwarf is and I can pick a completely different picture of Dwarf and say no that is what Dwarf is, who is right? My opinion is if you put pointy hats on the Dwarf models in game they will look like Gnomes , doesn't mean I am right , just my opinion of what I think they look like.
Believe it or not, your opinions are literally a result of your previous experience. If you do believe that the Dwarves shown to us look like gnomes, then that has to be because you have previously seen an IP that had gnomes that look like the Dwarves we have been shown.
If you have not seen that, then that simply can't be your opinion on it.
You right about previous IPs coloring my opinion , my ideal Dwarf is from the Warhammer Fantasy , a Dwarf that looks like he can rip your head off and juggle with it. Dwarves in Alpha 1 look a little small to me. I am not Dwarf player however so , it wont effect me much if they keep the current look.
Cool.
None of that explains why you think they look like gnomes.
I said the Dwarves look smaller in game then my ideal of what a Dwarf is , Gnomes are smaller the dwarves. I think the pictures posted by Asgerr pretty much covers my opinion.
The first one could be a Gnome in bulky clothing, sure.
The second one is for D&D Deck of Many Things - That's not Pathfinder.
When I do a Google search for the female - it returns Dwarves; not Gnomes.
The last one - as far as I can tell, what makes that a Gnome is the pointy hat. I'm pretty sure that is not Pathfinder, either.
@ThexBlackxKnight
I figured you were using Warhammer as a reference, but Steven is not using Warhammer as a reference.
Steven is not using Pathafinder as a reference.
"A gnome is a short humanoid, one of the most bizarre and alien of the civilized races of Golarion. They tend to be around three feet in height and unnervingly slender, although slightly taller than halflings."
Also: Gnomes p. 28
http://www.capecoralforsale.net/Lost_Omens_Character_guide.pdf
What is your obsession with Pathfinder? I said that Dwarves and Gnomes look alike in a lot of artwork in a past post. Pathfinder made gnomes look more like fae like pixies without wings because they were trying to be different.
If Steven created the world and lore using Warhammer, you should expect the races to be like they are in Warhammer.
If Steven created the world and lore using Middle Earth, you should expect the races to be like they are on Middle Earth.
So, you don't think they look like gnomes, you think they look roughly the size you think a gnome should be.
A fantasy gnome is not a real world thing. It's an abstract thing in a sense. Your opinion of what a gnome should look like is no more or less coloured by what you have experienced in life than anybody else's opinion. Nor any more or less valid than any other persons opinion. It's completely made up and thus 100% subjective. It doesn't have to be justified by anyone to anyone. At all. Intended or not, a few people in this thread come off as if they are some kind of arbiter of valid opinions on what a dwarf or gnome looks like, or that they have some kind of authority on the matter. They aren't and they don't.
What a cucumber looks like is not a 100% subjective thing, because it actually exists in the real world, unlike gnomes. That's a really nonsensical and illogical example you used there to try to prove a point.
However, if a game developer makes a fantasy universe in which gnomes actually look like cucumbers, well, then gnomes look like cucumbers in that universe. It's added to the list of different ways a gnome can look in fantasy. People are then free to dislike or like that as they please of course, and to express that opinion and ask the game developer to change it. If enough people dislike it the game developer might consider changing it, because it'll hurt people's enjoyment of the game, and thus sales.
The above should be an easy concept to grasp. The only objective truth is that there are no objective truths in this matter. There are no facts when it comes what fantasy gnomes or dwarves look like. There are only preferences based on people's life experiences.
What a majority of the people have been asking for in the poll is changes to how dwarfs look, based on their preference. That's it. It's fine to argue against changing the dwarfs, but please do it by stating your own preference on how they should look.
I hope Intrepid makes that official poll. I'd be willing to bet a majority will want the current dwarf models changed in that poll as well. What Intrepid does with the data is up to them of course.
A gnome is a fantasy thing.
This means that someone that has had no interaction with a fantasy IP that has gnomes in it will have no opinion of what a gnome should look like.
Anyone that has had interactions with fantasy IP's with gnomes will have their opinion of what a gnome should be shaped based on how gnomes were presented in those fantasy IP's.
Is there any of that you disagree with?
This is a dungeon and dragons artwork of a Gnome , I can recreate that look with the Dwarf models in game if they stay the way they are minus the pointy ears of coarse. Same body shape of current models.
But, also....Ashes doesn't have Gnomes.
Allow me to repeat myself then, since you selectively pick what arguments you (mistakenly) think you can "win" on.
Our dwarves don't look like those in Pathfinder
Our elves don't look like those in Pathfinder
Our orcs don't look like those in Pathfinder.
Tulnar aren't even a Pathfinder thing.
So tell me why we should adhere to this just because the world is loosely based on Steven's Pathfinder games?
To dismiss a D&D looking one because they're from D&D.... You do realise that Pathfinder is essentially an offshoot of D&D? The changed enough things so as to not fall into lawsuit territory, but they're virtually the same.
So your entire argument of "Yes, because Pathfinder" is incorrect.
And I found all those pictures by simply typing Gnomes in fantasy (because as you often remind people, this is a fantasy setting. And a high fantasy one, regardless of how incorrect Noaani wants to be about factual definitions).
So if everyone perceives them to be gnomish, what makes your opinion supersede everyone else's perception of reality? Try to answer with something other than "Steven plays pathfinder" please, trite and weak arguments simply bog down things.
Did I say they have Gnomes? I would say this picture the Dwarves looks thinner then the gnome art I posted.
In a world without Gnomes, Dwarves can cover both.
https://askanydifference.com/difference-between-gnome-and-dwarf/
Semantics , its pretty close and I can could make a dwarf character that looks like that gnome picture and be close in height too since the dwarves in Ashes are smaller then other depiction of dwarves.