Apparently some people really like cash shops.

Talking to some fellas on Reddit and never before have I had to unironically argue against cash shops. I am genuinely surprised that these people exist. Huh.

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Ferni

If a cash shop is purely cosmetic they can like it as much as they want.

What kind of talk were you having? I feel like I'm missing some additional information.

Shoelid

We were talking about P2W cash shops. Made a point that being able to purchase gold in WoW is P2W and is bad. I got three people replying to me saying that another person paying to win doesn't devalue my gameplay experience, and that the "pride of having done it myself instead of paying for it" should be enough for me.

Jirue

I mostly treat it as "the enemy I know" at this point. No one likes getting charged money, but the creators deserve monetary compensation so I accept it as a trade off so long as it remains within reason.

If a box price is buying a membership access to a cake buffet and a subscription is buying the right to maintain that membership every month, then I can tolerate a cash shop that sells candles and frilly plastic toothpick swords for the cakes. If those candles and filly toothpicks allow the bakers to create extra toppings for the cakes and treat themselves to nice vacations as a reward for baking good cakes, then it's a fair enough trade. It's when the cash shop is selling the forks and plates for the metaphorical cakes that I take issue.

Shoelid

Jirue wrote: »

I mostly treat it as "the enemy I know" at this point. No one likes getting charged money, but the creators deserve monetary compensation so I accept it as a trade off so long as it remains within reason.

Oh they definitely deserve monetary compensation. I'd be willing to more than double my sub for AOC if they didn't include the cash shop and instead focused on creating more & better in-game achievable cosmetics. It's not a dealbreaker that it's there, but I'd definitely prefer it weren't.

To work that into your analogy, I pay the cake buffet subscription for the experience of being able to walk in and experience everything as I please. To me, having to make extra transactions inside the buffet ruins the vibe. If the chefs would like more funding for more toppings and better vacations, I'd be more than happy to provide that in my subscription.

Schmuky

Noooooo...lets not start yet, I am still recovering after the clusterfuck that was last week for New World. This game has awhile until it comes out, the devs dont seem interested in cash shop, lets table this until closer to launch when it actually makes sense....Otherwise we are going to argue ourselfs to dead until the sun goes out.

I know that this post is against cash shop, but there is no point in opening a discussion on the forums like this, honest

Shoelid

Schmuky wrote: »

Noooooo...lets not start yet, I am still recovering after the clusterfuck that was last week for New World. This game has awhile until it comes out, the devs dont seem interested in cash shop, lets table this until closer to launch when it actually makes sense....Otherwise we are going to argue ourselfs to dead until the sun goes out.

I know that this post is against cash shop, but there is no point in opening a discussion on the forums like this, honest

Haha, not trying to have any real discussion here, I was just honestly surprised that there are people who enjoy P2W in their games, or at least dont mind it enough to argue in its favor. I'd thought that between this forum and a couple discords that I had a pretty well rounded view on this stuff, but I was proven wrong today.

Dygz

Some people like cash shops and some people don’t.
That’s the massively multiplayer part of MMORPGs - there will be many different perspectives of what players like and dislike.
You will disagree with some players.

Vhaeyne

I am only in favor of cash shops when it is cosmetic only and a smaller company. I feel this way because it can allow the fans of the project to be the funders and not some shareholders or other investors who don't care about the project and only want to make money from investments.

Often times game company seek funding from parties who are not interested in the game itself and this leads to P2W and lack luster game design. To me, it is a very nuanced topic and I have to judge each game and company on a case by case basis to know if I trust them with a cash shop. So far, I trust intrepid, but that could change in the future.

Schmuky

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I am only in favor of cash shops when it is cosmetic only and a smaller company. I feel this way because it can allow the fans of the project to be the funders and not some shareholders or other investors who don't care about the project and only want to make money from investments.

Often times game company seek funding from parties who are not interested in the game itself and this leads to P2W and lack luster game design. To me, it is a very nuanced topic and I have to judge each game and company on a case by case basis to know if I trust them with a cash shop. So far, I trust intrepid, but that could change in the future.

I judge not by company, but by what item gets added. And one item thats P2W will make me not buy anything from them ever again:))

Taleof2Cities

Schmuky wrote: »

I judge not by company, but by what item gets added. And one item thats P2W will make me not buy anything from them ever again:))

You're right, @Schmuky. One MMO that does a decent job with a non-P2W cosmetic shop is ESO.

And it looks like Ashes is on that same path.

Shoelid wrote: »

We were talking about P2W cash shops. Made a point that being able to purchase gold in WoW is P2W and is bad. I got three people replying to me saying that another person paying to win doesn't devalue my gameplay experience, and that the "pride of having done it myself instead of paying for it" should be enough for me.

One of the many reasons I've never played (or plan to play) WoW.

Dethraxxi

The argument: "If it's cosmetic then it's fine" is really broken because the point isn't whether having paid cosmetics in the game is fine.
The point is that having paid cosmetics in the PAY/SUB TO PLAY game is a crapy thing to do.
Especially when FOMO is the core marketing strategy.

Sathrago

Reddit

Talents

I know people who argue that P2W cash shops are a good thing because then they can pay the company directly instead of "needing" to pay gold farmers instead.

So yeah, some people are dumb af.

Warth

Shoelid wrote: »

Jirue wrote: »

I mostly treat it as "the enemy I know" at this point. No one likes getting charged money, but the creators deserve monetary compensation so I accept it as a trade off so long as it remains within reason.

Oh they definitely deserve monetary compensation. I'd be willing to more than double my sub for AOC if they didn't include the cash shop and instead focused on creating more & better in-game achievable cosmetics. .

you might, but a large majority of the potential playerbase will not. The Devs know that very well, which is why they don't bother trying it

Shoelid

Jinx_X wrote: »

The argument: "If it's cosmetic then it's fine" is really broken because the point isn't whether having paid cosmetics in the game is fine.
The point is that having paid cosmetics in the PAY/SUB TO PLAY game is a crapy thing to do.
Especially when FOMO is the core marketing strategy.

The explanation given from Intrepid/Steven Sharif is essentially that the cosmetic store is necessary to make up for the lack of a box cost, which I'm inclined to agree. The FOMO stuff I go back and forth on. Sometimes it upsets me, sometimes I like the prospect of having exclusive cosmetics. It does bother me a little, despite being such a big fan of Ashes.

Sathrago wrote: »

Reddit

...Reddit.

Jirue

Shoelid wrote: »

Jirue wrote: »

I mostly treat it as "the enemy I know" at this point. No one likes getting charged money, but the creators deserve monetary compensation so I accept it as a trade off so long as it remains within reason.

Oh they definitely deserve monetary compensation. I'd be willing to more than double my sub for AOC if they didn't include the cash shop and instead focused on creating more & better in-game achievable cosmetics. It's not a dealbreaker that it's there, but I'd definitely prefer it weren't.

To work that into your analogy, I pay the cake buffet subscription for the experience of being able to walk in and experience everything as I please. To me, having to make extra transactions inside the buffet ruins the vibe. If the chefs would like more funding for more toppings and better vacations, I'd be more than happy to provide that in my subscription.

That's understandable if you have the money for it. It's not typically a good business move to create a larger barrier to entry unless you have the confidence in your product to overcome the first-time payer mental barrier for enough people. Something that's a very challenging task in the saturated gaming market when your company does not have an established fan base from other titles the company has made. Already going to be quite a handicap they have a subscription in the first place.

Shoelid

Warth wrote: »

Shoelid wrote: »

Jirue wrote: »

I mostly treat it as "the enemy I know" at this point. No one likes getting charged money, but the creators deserve monetary compensation so I accept it as a trade off so long as it remains within reason.

Oh they definitely deserve monetary compensation. I'd be willing to more than double my sub for AOC if they didn't include the cash shop and instead focused on creating more & better in-game achievable cosmetics. .

you might, but a large majority of the potential playerbase will not. The Devs know that very well, which is why they don't bother trying it

Yeah, I'm fully aware of that

Khronus

Shoelid wrote: »

We were talking about P2W cash shops. Made a point that being able to purchase gold in WoW is P2W and is bad. I got three people replying to me saying that another person paying to win doesn't devalue my gameplay experience, and that the "pride of having done it myself instead of paying for it" should be enough for me.

The people you are arguing with on reddit are rock brains and I would avoid them. I totally understand the "I did it without P2W so that is an additional accomplishment" but in reality, most games simply hide content behind pay walls that make them it impossible without paying. I Haven't downloaded an app game in like 7 years because of this. Aside from chess....which was free and allows me to play....chess.

If the pay to win is harmless...like as in pay for "convenience", I personally feel like there is still no point in playing ...so I don't play them at all.

Noaani

Shoelid wrote: »

We were talking about P2W cash shops. Made a point that being able to purchase gold in WoW is P2W and is bad. I got three people replying to me saying that another person paying to win doesn't devalue my gameplay experience, and that the "pride of having done it myself instead of paying for it" should be enough for me.

Some people do have more money than time, and so want to buy progress in an MMO rather than grinding it out themself.

Also, there are some people out there that take pride in beating people that are wearing equipment worth actual hundreds of thousands of dollars, without having paid more than their subscription fee (this was me in Archeage).

This is a reasonable thing for some people to want, and a valid thing for some games to cater to.

However, it is the notion that all games should cater to this that I would take exception to. In the same way that people that enjoy this sort of thing really should have games that cater to them, people that really dont want any pay to win in their game at all should have games that cater to this as well.

akabear

After playing PoE solidly for about 6-9 months, I bought a range of cosmetic items from their cash shop (several times ) for no real in game reason but as a token support to the game / give back to the company.

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