Be honest, what do you expect from AOC and how long are you willing to wait?

I am seeing in various comments on U2, twitter, Reddit, etc, that you think that AOC must be the definitive WOW KILLER, the new MMO chosen by the gods and that should come out fast.

Calm down guys

AOC does not pretend to be the new WOW killer, AOC wants to be AOC working for its community, improving itself little by little and becoming what they and their community want it to be.

As Steve said, there will be many errors and that is the best of all, to improve something you have to go step by step seeing errors and improving it, nothing starts being the best and that is why they are working with their community, with the alpha players to give us in the future what their community and they want.

I hope they take time, I prefer an MMO with a very solid base to be able to work on it and improve over time than an MMO that comes out quickly but does not have a solid base.

In short, I would not care if AOC comes out in 2025 or 2026, I would wait for it, since seeing the effort they are making, the problems they have had (Jeff's departure), and the future problems they may have, I know very well that It is a LONG FIGHT to create from scratch a project that is thinking to give the MMO community the MMO they deserve.

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Songcaller

My next PC Build is due in 2025 so I hope the game is out prior to that point.

roost

Elviajero wrote: »

In short, I would not care if AOC comes out in 2025 or 2026, I would wait for it, since seeing the effort they are making, the problems they have had (Jeff's departure), and the future problems they may have, I know very well that It is a LONG FIGHT to create from scratch a project that is thinking to give the MMO community the MMO they deserve.

I'd agree in principle, but heavily disagree in practice. Infinite dev time doesn't make an infinitely better game. Sometimes an extraordinarily long development time is indicative of incompetence or mismanagement. Just look at Star Citizen. Time frames matter, and in almost every case of a game taking that long to finish development (Think Duke Nukem Forever, Cyberpunk 2077, etc), technology ALWAYS outpaces development, forcing the team to scrap old parts of the game with newer, updating parts, resulting in rolling development resulting in a never-ending development cycle. We have to let go of the idea that the business aspect of creating a video game is just some extraneous afterthought to it's development. It's a balancing act between creating a good, finished product, and shipping a product in a reasonable timeframe. Deadlines are never a bad thing, and developers across the world have spoken out about how pressure from management forced them to scrap half-baked systems and stop creeping features and put more work into the core of the game to get a product shipped. Of course, management can pressure too hard (World of Warcraft), but it can also pressure far too little (Star Citizen). Marketing matters, hype matters, community perception matters, timeframes matter. If this game makes it to 2026 with no release, the hype will be dead, just like it is for star citizen. It'll become a meme.

That quote from Shigeru Miyamoto is nice on paper, but nowhere near the end-all be-all to game development.

Zombs3

I'm expecting an overall good experience from Ashes of Creation. Of course every game is going to have it's problems and no game is going to ever be a perfect 10/10 experience, because there will always be at least some small issue or some aspect of the game that some people just don't like. I would honestly expect a 7/10 at launch and later being improved to an 8/10 or maybe even 9/10 after receiving feedback from the community and fixing any issues (Keep in mind like I said no game in my opinion is 10/10 because I rank that as absolute perfection which I don't believe is actually possible).

As for how long I'm willing to wait. I don't see it as really a choice. the fact of the matter is this game could come out in 2022 or 2030 (an over exaggeration I know) and I would still play it. In my opinion the sooner it's done the better (Given that it's not rushed and the full game comes out as intended), but I'm not going to refuse to play the game just because it came out a year or two later than I expected.

No game is going to be the "WOW Killer" as that will always have a fanbase, but from what I've seen I feel like Ashes of Creation will have a pretty solid good community. I see more people expecting just a good game than I see people expecting a 10/10 best mmo ever. So hopefully if people going in expecting a 7/10 or 8/10 experience then the game won't fall victim to the hype train.

Ornan

The tempered approach of the alpha's and betas should be substantial enough to give the community the right expectations. The development team isn't trying to overhype the game like you might see in other production efforts.

My own expectations are that I'll be able to enjoy an MMO with new mechanics and rules that will grab attention and make me want to both partake in the game and roleplay as well. I'm hopeful for the storybuilding possibilities being cited so far. If the game becomes more successful than WoW that's great, but it's not a priority. Often you see plenty of games that fit a wide audience well without necessarily being the top grossing product.

As for a time? Well, as long as I have can help proofread and test the game in the meantime it will keep me occupied with an active and responsive dev team like Intrepid's.

Bricktop

Hopefully a halfway decent open world PvP MMO in a reasonable time frame. It's not a matter of "Take as long as you need" like some other people in the thread have pointed out. Long development time frames like star citizen and CU scream mismanaged projects at the top of their lungs. I don't think sorceror will spend his time arguing with people in the MMO website comments section like some leads have.

AoC isn't a WoW killer, that term is so funny. WoW and AoC are two very different types of games who will have very different types of people playing. It's like Escape from Tarkov and Call of Duty. Yeah they are both shooters, but it's very different types of people with different mindsets playing the games.

Either way I have other things to play while I wait, hope it's good.

Asgerr

Dude, you keep preaching the choir.

We all just want Ashes to be good. It doesn't need to kill anything. The only people I have seen concerned about whether this is going to be a WoW killer, are WoW players (you, the kind that scream "Weeb game"/"Furries" at any MMO that isn't WoW)

Dygz

At this point, 2025/2026 seems likely.
That would be about 10 years of development instead of 2-3, which was originally pitched.
People just need to keep that in mind as they demand significant changes from what they experience in Alpha One.

Saedu

Personally I'd be happy to wait for a great product. Economically I don't think that's possible if we want this game to materialize... I'd estimate with the studio size ramping up they will need to ship the product in about 2 years. Steven's $40m can only go so far. The pre-sales also include game time so that will impact year 1 revenue as well.

Going longer increases the risk of either Steven needing to fund more (I'm not sure how much more he has) or finding additional investors.

If AoC ships with 70% of what it has committed and does it with good quality, then it will be a major success they can build on over time. There is a reason every successful software company has a "Minimum Viable Product" concept (and unsuccessful companies either over or under estimate the features and quality needed for the MVP). If IS tries to ship with 100% of features, but the quality is missing, then it's much less likely to succeed.

The node system, sieges, caravans, classes/augments, combat, and crafting/gear/economic systems are probably the most important aspects to get right at launch.

For example, I'm excited for naval combat, but happy to wait till a year after release (or two) if it means the other systems are polished at launch and the product isn't delayed and extra year for it.

Raid bosses and dungeons could start with 30% of the number intended spread throughout the world and then add 15-20% each quarter to get up to that 100% within a year post launch.

Arena could start without a rating system at launch and then add one 6 months down the road (I'd still do the non-rated arena system in Alpha as it can be a critical testing ground for class balance, especially 3v3 and 8v8).

Of course, what will be important with an approach like this is: (1) quality/fun in what they deliver and (2) clear communication from IS on what the vision is and what they are currently working on to add or grow each system.

MybroViajero

Asgerr wrote: »

Dude, you keep preaching the choir.

We all just want Ashes to be good. It doesn't need to kill anything. The only people I have seen concerned about whether this is going to be a WoW killer, are WoW players (you, the kind that scream "Weeb game"/"Furries" at any MMO that isn't WoW)

Hi Asger

, how have you been?

I say it more than anything because there are many people who have that mentality, that WOW has to be overcome to be a good game, I read it in forums, I read it in comments on u2 or reddit. Not that I want to make that point known.

And yes, I understand your point, but you have to know the different points of view of others to know a general thought.

MybroViajero

roost wrote: »

Elviajero wrote: »

I'd agree in principle, but heavily disagree in practice. Infinite dev time doesn't make an infinitely better game. Sometimes an extraordinarily long development time is indicative of incompetence or mismanagement. Just look at Star Citizen. Time frames matter, and in almost every case of a game taking that long to finish development (Think Duke Nukem Forever, Cyberpunk 2077, etc), technology ALWAYS outpaces development, forcing the team to scrap old parts of the game with newer, updating parts, resulting in rolling development resulting in a never-ending development cycle. We have to let go of the idea that the business aspect of creating a video game is just some extraneous afterthought to it's development. It's a balancing act between creating a good, finished product, and shipping a product in a reasonable timeframe. Deadlines are never a bad thing, and developers across the world have spoken out about how pressure from management forced them to scrap half-baked systems and stop creeping features and put more work into the core of the game to get a product shipped. Of course, management can pressure too hard (World of Warcraft), but it can also pressure far too little (Star Citizen). Marketing matters, hype matters, community perception matters, timeframes matter. If this game makes it to 2026 with no release, the hype will be dead, just like it is for star citizen. It'll become a meme.

That quote from Shigeru Miyamoto is nice on paper, but nowhere near the end-all be-all to game development.

I totally agree and thank you for that point of view, it has made me reflect on several things.

The case of Cyberpunk2077 is a great example to follow as you should not handle time, failures and rushing things, I totally agree and thanks again for reminding me

Asgerr

Dygz wrote: »

At this point, 2025/2026 seems likely.
That would be about 10 years of development instead of 2-3, which was originally pitched.
People just need to keep that in mind as they demand significant changes from what they experience in Alpha One.

Source: "Dude, trust me"

roost

Asgerr wrote: »

Source: "Dude, trust me"

Just ignore him, Dygz frequently has some of the most unintelligent, shortsighted, and simply ridiculous commentary on this forum. Not worth engaging with.

neuroguy

I just really want to complain and ask the same questions over and over, so I don't mind if game takes forever to come out since I can just complain about how long it's taking or the state of the alpha/beta or ask my questions. Will AoC be ported to UE5? Why don't we have dps meters and instanced PvE? And if it comes out I will complain about world PvP, corruption, balance etc. Honestly, AoC is really fulfilling in this way already. /s
Edit: forgot how much I loved asking the same questions and rehashing arguments so I added that.

Dygz

Asgerr wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

At this point, 2025/2026 seems likely.
That would be about 10 years of development instead of 2-3, which was originally pitched.
People just need to keep that in mind as they demand significant changes from what they experience in Alpha One.

Source: "Dude, trust me"

LMAO
I am not the one who suggested 2025 or 2026.
My current estimate is 2023/2024.
But, 2025 or 2026 is also likely.

Asgerr

neuroguy wrote: »

I just really want to complain and ask the same questions over and over, so I don't mind if game takes forever to come out since I can just complain about how long it's taking or the state of the alpha/beta or ask my questions. Will AoC be ported to UE5? Why don't we have dps meters and instanced PvE? And if it comes out I will complain about world PvP, corruption, balance etc. Honestly, AoC is really fulfilling in this way already. /s
Edit: forgot how much I loved asking the same questions and rehashing arguments so I added that.

For the UE5 thing - Possibly. Depending on how it works with their current designs etc.

We currently don't have DPS meters because Steven doesn't like them and thinks they breed toxicity.

There IS instanced PvE - instanced dungeons are a thing thought they most likely will be reserved for specific raids or story related content.

George_Black

I expect open world pvp and no p2w.
I expect item crafts to require effort, time, group gameplay, instead of repetitive instanced dungeon runs.

I hope for good Fighter abilities and I hope Dual Wield will be on par with Two Handed and Sword/Shield.

I would like the development to take at least 4 years from now so that I can get to EU back in time to play with my inrl friends.

HiddenDaggerInn

Wait too long and you become the next star citizen and Camelot unchained and everyone will move on. I have 2 founders accounts on CU and star citizen ships, I could care less about both at this point. They had their window now to me they're dead.

neuroguy

Asgerr wrote: »

neuroguy wrote: »

I just really want to complain and ask the same questions over and over, so I don't mind if game takes forever to come out since I can just complain about how long it's taking or the state of the alpha/beta or ask my questions. Will AoC be ported to UE5? Why don't we have dps meters and instanced PvE? And if it comes out I will complain about world PvP, corruption, balance etc. Honestly, AoC is really fulfilling in this way already. /s
Edit: forgot how much I loved asking the same questions and rehashing arguments so I added that.

For the UE5 thing - Possibly. Depending on how it works with their current designs etc.

We currently don't have DPS meters because Steven doesn't like them and thinks they breed toxicity.

There IS instanced PvE - instanced dungeons are a thing thought they most likely will be reserved for specific raids or story related content.

Hahaha /s means satire. Tbh I thought I didn't even need to clarify since my post was dripping of it.

Inixia

To be honest I'm just hoping to actually have an mmo to immerse myself in again - have a reason to join and meet guildies, get absorbed in an interesting world/story with more modern graphics, and engage in challenging pve and pvp content. Part of its nostalgia I suppose, I don't want to see the genre decay, and its always funnest to get in on the ground level of a game. But a part of me is also intrigued by the new node control and siege ideas, I think that will make the pvp side feel pretty fresh longer.

Of course the details are what will really make or break it: endgame progression should ideally be fleshed out and challenging at higher levels with some rewards and not designed to be too pug friendly to give guilds a reason to form up well and keep striving for something long term, quests should be more exciting than just kill x of y, I'm hoping ability rotations are varied and mentally interesting rather than the couple button gw2/lol approaches so you aren't just hitting the same macro sequence over and over, etc....

I'm willing to wait to be fair, and of course it doesn't exactly have to be my vision of things, I'm willing to forgive a bit, but I'm hoping its at least mostly on target...

Noaani

My honest expectation from Ashes is that it will be only a small step above mediocre, will be popular for 3 months, and then the population will suddenly decline, followed by a slow steady decline. 24 - 36 months after release, the game will have faded back in to obscurity

it will remain populated with the dedicated open world PvP MMO fans (all 6 of them), but the rest of the MMO market, let alone the wider PC gaming market - will forget the game.

Basically, it will be the next in the live from L2, through Darkfall, Archeage, and BDO, a succession of games that has EVE, Wildstar and Albion on it's periphery.

To be clear, this isn't what I *want* for or from the game, it is what I expect. I expect it because I see nothing at all in this game so far that would keep someone that isn't interested in the above games from playing and staying in Ashes

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