Action-based combat any worth ?

Now I come from a very hardcore pvp type of background dating all the way back to darkfall and mortal online where player skill on reaction, maneuvering, movement and stat management in the heat of battle decided your outcome. You could last against several players by only pure skill awareness and understanding of weapon type management.

Action-based combat gives exactly that, only a friction of it we have seen so far in the apocalypse version, yet what if the combat system expands more on it. The game could drive to become the next best pvp game what me and my boyz would look immensely forward to, especially since fast paced combat was always our thing, instead of the tab targeting which takes away a big chunk of skillset.

So far I have read that action based combat will be more rewarded, perhaps bigger cc's? more dmg output? I guess these kinds of advantages could decide some outcomes in mid battles. We will see. Will it be any useful and good in Ashes of Creation while having tab targeting around? I have high hopes for it to become more skillbased than just having abilities spammed in the right time and have some proper pvp coming out.

These are just thoughts that hopefully will find following. As a former pvp veteran I am looking forward to some challenging and exciting battles.
Myrmex over and out.

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Comments

Songcaller

The PvP will have a higher skill cap because of Bards and the short duration buffs Bards will have. We do not need full action combat to have a high skill cap. Even tab targeting needs skill in PvP. So far, the hybrid combat runs quite smoother with tab abilities enabled and tab targeting enabled when action combat is active. I think the current synergies between tab and action make for a better basis for combat.

Dygz

Ashes is a PvX game...and... the focus of PvP combat is objective-based combat.

Vhaeyne

Dygz wrote: »

Ashes is a PvX game...and... the focus of PvP combat is objective-based combat.

Or just killing for fun...

Maezriel

Depends. Whereas action combat might be a bit more visceral I think Tab would be a better choice in Ashes do to the desire for the mega-large PvP fights.

Dygz

Just killing for fun is not a focus of the game.

Our game is designed for a PvX mentality. It is a lot of both worlds. And what we just described in the Node system as a way to develop the world - the 2nd pillar being Meaningful Conflict is our catalyst for change.
So if a world has Nodes that are starting to get developed, and citizens start claiming areas and they have their Freeholds out in the realm and there ar Castles that have been taken and dungeons that lay claimed to...all those types of things... PvP in our game has meaning to it based on the systems it's involved with.

So, when we have Castle sieges, when we have Node sieges, when we have Caravans, when we have battlegrounds and arenas, there's a purpose for that performance on the players' end in participating with those events. And it has real world effects.
We're not creating a gankbox. We're not creating a murderbox.

There is a flagging system that is in place that highly dis-incentivizes just outright murder.
We, however, do want to see conflict erupt and we do want to see that conflict have a system to see out what the result will be.
---Steven

(And, yes, I know you were not suggesting that killing for fun inherently equates with a murderbox.
I'm just saying Ashes is not intended to be a hardcore PvP game.)

Maezriel

@Dygz you have a very specific view of what constitutes a hardcore PvP game

If you come from something like Eve Online AoC probably won't be all that crazy...but the vast majority of MMO players that give the game a try will very likely consider it hardcore PvP b/c it's not just a background system and is instead intrinsically tied into nearly every aspect of the game.

Vhaeyne

@Dygz

I had a feeling my reply would get a rise out of you.

Talents

Well Steven massively leans towards tab when it comes to what he enjoys. We know that if they can't get the hybrid system working in a fun way then they're just gonna go full tab with action templates (like aiming aoe's and stuff). I would also prefer a tab centric system like how ArcheAge did it.

Dygz

Maezriel wrote: »

You have a very specific view of what constitutes a hardcore PvP game

If you come from something like Eve Online AoC probably won't be all that crazy...but the vast majority of MMO players that give the game a try will very likely consider it hardcore PvP b/c it's not just a background system and is instead intrinsically tied into nearly every aspect of the game.

I think Steven has a very specific view of what constitutes a hardcore PvP game.
Having the focus of the PvP combat be objective-based and having Corruption... as well as the PvE elements... ramps down the hardcore PvP part quite a bit
There is quite a bit of PvP. And quite a bit of PvE. Sure.
And having no PvE servers makes it more PvP than lots of people would like. Yes.
I think it's not going to be as hardcore PvP as EvE, which seems to be what Myrmex is expecting.

Dygz

Vhaeyne wrote: »

@Dygz

I had a feeling my reply would get a rise out of you.

Well, a response for sure.
You know me well!!!

Azherae

Dygz wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

@Dygz

I had a feeling my reply would get a rise out of you.

Well, a response for sure.
You know me well!!!

Indeed. A ball is round.

Maezriel

Talents wrote: »

Well Steven massively leans towards tab when it comes to what he enjoys. We know that if they can't get the hybrid system working in a fun way then they're just gonna go full tab with action templates (like aiming aoe's and stuff). I would also prefer a tab centric system like how ArcheAge did it.

Honestly I would prefer they just go to this now b/c w/ the desire for 250v250 (or 500v500) I just can't see how the servers won't be a literal dumpster fire if they had to handle Action Combat

ThexBlackxKnight

Dygz wrote: »

Having the focus of the PvP combat be objective-based and having Corruption.
.

Sure having objectives to fight over is fun but you do realize that pvp players will kill each other just because and they don't need any motivation or justification for it. Pvp players will fight just to fight anywhere they can. Someone might just come along while you are questing and kill you for no reason other then it was funny to do so. There is corruption , but there is nothing to stop a pvp guilds declaring wars on what they think are soft guilds of carebear players.

Zeshio

Dygz wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

You have a very specific view of what constitutes a hardcore PvP game

If you come from something like Eve Online AoC probably won't be all that crazy...but the vast majority of MMO players that give the game a try will very likely consider it hardcore PvP b/c it's not just a background system and is instead intrinsically tied into nearly every aspect of the game.

I think Steven has a very specific view of what constitutes a hardcore PvP game.
Having the focus of the PvP combat be objective-based and having Corruption... as well as the PvE elements... ramps down the hardcore PvP part quite a bit
There is quite a bit of PvP. And quite a bit of PvE. Sure.
And having no PvE servers makes it more PvP than lots of people would like. Yes.
I think it's not going to be as hardcore PvP as EvE, which seems to be what Myrmex is expecting.

I think there's a portion you're missing out of this- specifically that caravanning goods is going to be much more dangerous than moving goods in EvE online. Given with siege mechanics and node destruction, there's going to be plenty of opportunity and people looking to gank folks moving their goods away from danger. I agree that maybe PvP combat in general might not be as big of a deal given the corruption mechanic, but people forget the large economic incentives some guilds will have by 'killing for fun' - primarily against vulnerable caravans.

Dygz

Zeshio wrote: »

I think there's a portion you're missing out of this- specifically that caravanning goods is going to be much more dangerous than moving goods in EvE online. Given with siege mechanics and node destruction, there's going to be plenty of opportunity and people looking to gank folks moving their goods away from danger. I agree that maybe PvP combat in general might not be as big of a deal given the corruption mechanic, but people forget the large economic incentives some guilds will have by 'killing for fun' - primarily against vulnerable caravans.

Caravans are a great point. But, I think Caravans are more structured and are planned as battlegrounds - systematically - than in EvE. Caravans are objective-based and more meaningful than just killing "for fun".
So while Caravan battles may be more frequent than in EvE, they will be less hardcore.
We shall see.

I also think of full loot as hardcore PvP. Loss of some resources does not feel hardcore, to me.
Also, hardcore PvP, to me, would not include a Corruption mechanic.

Every time people mention Ashes being a PvP game around Steven, he tries to make it a point that Ashes is a PvX game.

Maezriel

Dygz wrote: »

Zeshio wrote: »

I think there's a portion you're missing out of this- specifically that caravanning goods is going to be much more dangerous than moving goods in EvE online. Given with siege mechanics and node destruction, there's going to be plenty of opportunity and people looking to gank folks moving their goods away from danger. I agree that maybe PvP combat in general might not be as big of a deal given the corruption mechanic, but people forget the large economic incentives some guilds will have by 'killing for fun' - primarily against vulnerable caravans.

Caravans are a great point. But, I think Caravans are more structured and are planned as battlegrounds - systematically - than in EvE. Caravans are objective-based and more meaningful than just killing "for fun".
So while Caravan battles may be more frequent than in EvE, they will be less hardcore.
We shall see.

I also think of full loot as hardcore PvP. Loss of some resources does not feel hardcore, to me.
Also, hardcore PvP, to me, would not include a Corruption mechanic.

Every time people mention Ashes being a PvP game around Steven, he tries to make it a point that Ashes is a PvX game.

Of course he does b/c stating the game is PvP focus will automatically deter a massive number of potential players.

Is the game guaranteed to be a gank fest from the moment you start w/ no hope of ever hitting level cap? Probably not, but the moment someone hears PvP they flashback to some dick shutting down entire zones in WoW for literally no reason than being a troll.

Fact is to the vast majority of people the game is a hardcore PvP one and that won't change unless Intrepid puts in PvE servers where literally everything is opt-in.

ThexBlackxKnight

No pvp immunity makes it too hardcore for the majority of pve centric players. Most players playing this game over the long run will be those that like pvp. PVX is just a term being used to make the game look less bad to players that don't like pvp.

Dygz

Maezriel wrote: »

Fact is to the vast majority of people the game is a hardcore PvP one and that won't change unless Intrepid puts in PvE servers where literally everything is opt-in.

Except we still hear PvP regardless.
The OP is wanting the action combat to be expanded so that to be the best PvP game his hardcore PvP buddies could ever want.
And I'm just putting out the reminder that that's not the goal Steven has stated.
If you still want to hope Ashes is the best hardcore PvP ever made in any case, that's OK by me.

George_Black

I dont think action combat takes higher skill than tab.

Personally, the reason I want it in AoC is because I find action combat more immersive and modern. I get more pumped up when playing an action combat mmo in PvP and raidboss fighting.

I do find action combat extremelly annoying when I want to progress my character, grind open world xp, or collect crafting materials from mobs.
In L2 with it's tab combat, grouping up with friends and playing PvE for hours was a breeze. Very relaxing.

However, if after A1 is completed and the basics are not looking good, I think AoC should focus on a polished tab target combat, with modern mobility features (gap closers/openers, pushbacks/pulls, invisibility, telekinesis spells etc).

Combat is a part of mmorpgs.
Character progress
Group goals
Wars and domination
Market and items
Visuals and world exploration

Having tab target would not turn me off even tho I prefer action combat.

Not all action combat mmos are good. For me ESO, was visually so ugly due to animation cancelling. Also the skills looked so unimpressive.
Then you have bdo, which had immersive combat, but was a clusterf*** of over the top effects.

Tera online did good action combat. The best I have seen. And AA did a good mix of action/tab, even though I was not too crazy for the magic giant hammers tied to all the "warrior" rotations.

Vhaeyne

Real talk, I am in love with the idea that you could choose AC moves over TT moves to incorporate the extra bit of risk vs reward into combat.

So long as AC move feel good and are properly rewarded the two systems should be able to coexist quite well.

My main worry is that you would see people only using AC moves in PvE because targets tend to be slower and more stationary if tanked well, and people would use TT in PvP more to have higher hit accuracy. Still, the idea that the player makes the choice on what moves they want to use is still more important to me than any predicted meta.

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