"Requires X weapon equiped to use this ability."

We havent seen much of the weapon gameplay since Apoc and I am very curious if the devs have a plan at this moment for weapons, besides them augmenting archetype/class abilities, as oftenly mentioned with the bleed example when equiped with a dagger.

Will fighters, for example have abilities that require them to equip dual wield in order to perform, let's say "double slash", or "crushing blow" requiring two handed, or "rapid flurry" requiring a rapier?

What is the peoples view on weapon restricted abilities in archetype/classes?

Is the alternative something you are more keen? All abilities being cast regardless what weapon you hold, why a generic animation?
Would you be happy if weapons functioned only as passive boosts plus the norm atk?
Would you be happy if weapons didn't had their own active functions and own animations?

Since Steven and Jeff have said in the past that building animations for every class/weapon is a near impossible task, wouldn't it make sense for classes to have SOME built-in abilities, tied to weapons that might be thematicaly related to the class?

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Comments

Conrad

Eh, I hope at the very least dual wield has a lot of animations. The rest can't care less 🤣

But tbh, I dunno, I trust them that they can make the animations look good for all or at least my fighting style. Like, no anime esque moves but more realistic or semi realistic like Dragon Age Origins did quite well with

Vhaeyne

@George Black

I thought the whole intent behind weapon skill trees was in line with what you are talking about.

Weapons will have their own progression paths and their own applicable types of skills.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Weapon_progression

Personally, I like the customization options that comes with weapon ability on weapons and class abilities on the classes. Being able to pick what you want, regardless if it is optimal, is part of player agency.

There are some things you can only physically do with a bow, but if you know how to cast fireball, you might not need a staff to do it. Just having a bow in hand and casting fireball might make for a weaker fireball, due to the bow not having a stat that enhances spell damage. Unless you crafted it to be that way for some reason.

That is the sort of stuff I would like to see.

Songcaller

I hope we can spec into two weapon trees. Will be disappointed if we can only spec into the main weapon and just have basic attacks for a swapped weapon.

Dygz

Any race/class can use any weapon, so expect us to be able to spend points for multiple weapons.
The real limitation will be how easy/difficult it is to respec points.

I think, for the most part, we won't need the actual weapon in order to activate an Archetype ability.
My Cleric does not need a Hammer for Judgment or a Whip for Castigation or a Spear for Divine Censure.
I don't think a Tank has to be wielding a Spear for Javelin. I think that will work with any weapon.

A couple years ago, I was expecting Shield Bash to require having a Shield equipped, but I now doubt that will be the case.
Seems like Ranger abilities would still be relying on a Bow. Seems strange to be activating Marked Arrow and Knockback Shot with a Dagger...but, we'll have to see. Maybe that's why Ranger wasn't ready for the Alpha One Preview.

McShave

I remember once that someone said that Ashes' combat will be focused around builds. I assume that a player's build will be based on that weapon, as that decides what type of damage and how you deal that damage (paraphrasing of a quote from the late, great, Jeffery Bard). A dagger will require a more nimble character, a sword will be more up-front and face to face, a staff means you cast spells, archers with bows, etc. Steven has said there will be 3 "talent trees" that you can spend points in, weapon skills, character abilities, and passives talents that will have combat effects.

But to answer the OP's post, there will most likely not be "must use weapon to activate skill", unless it's a weapon skill that you put some points in because you use that weapon.

Dygz

I mean... people will very likely make builds that synergize their skills.
I think we know that one of the Dagger Weapon Abilities is a Bleed. Most likely a Rogue will be taking advantage of that rather than a Mage, but we might expect a Shadowcaster and a Nightspell to switch between a Dagger and Staff.

Any Tank who wants to synergize with a Rogue might use a Dagger in order to stack Bleeds, but a Spellshield might want to sometimes wield a Staff in order to synergize with a Mage.

Some weapon choices may be more about the group rather than only about one individual character.

George_Black

Maybe I should plainly state my concern.
I am worried that weapons will be treated as stats: "increase bleed", "add slash dmg to some class abilities", "add armor penetration".

There hasnt been much talk of active weapon abilities.

Dual wield active ability:
"Double slash" - animation of ability matches the description. Weapons dont dissapear during animation.

Deal 1650 dmg
Cost: 150 mp
CD: 9s
For every dagger increase crit rate
For every sword decrease CD
For every mace ignore X defence.

Are people happy with daggers just adding a bleed component to some rogue abilities?

Azherae

As an FFXI player obviously once I hear 'Weapon Skill' I assume an active ability.

Lately I've been hearing 'Weapon Perk' which makes me share your concern, but not necessarily a lot.

What I hope for is that every weapon has its own small weapon skill tree, and that you can use that entire Skill Tree (or most of it) as soon as you equip the weapon, and then after settling into it, you can use any required points to raise attributes of Skills, and Perks, of the Weapon you choose to 'main'.

This would also let you switch weapon, have two or three Upgrades of the skills of your backup weapon, and still have Build specialization without costing a giant pile of whatever Points you need for it.

The number of skills runs across the same 'problem' as Archetype abilities, so there won't be that many non-repetitions anyway.

As for the last question, I'm 'sort of' happy with that. For me personally just Bleed and Ignore Defense is enough, I'd take a specific 'stat down' debuff too and aside from that only care about damage. But, again, that's just 'what I'm used to'.

So I guess where I deviate here is that I do expect a lot of 'Must have X weapon to use X ability', but I am hoping their approach is that the 'pain' of this is simply that you have to redo your hotbar to change your weapon, which I figure is a fair enough compromise (I think I'd be annoyed if people could carry around an inventory full of weapons and swap to literally any of them mid-fight without penalty, that usually leads to meta and balance issues).

McShave

Azherae wrote: »

What I hope for is that every weapon has its own small weapon skill tree, and that you can use that entire Skill Tree (or most of it) as soon as you equip the weapon, and then after settling into it, you can use any required points to raise attributes of Skills, and Perks, of the Weapon you choose to 'main'.

I expect something like you have one weapons tree, but each branch is for the weapons that synergize for your class. Even tho any class can use any weapon, Steven said certain weapon and armor types will have better stats for specific classes.

I think every weapon having a specific talent tree would be a lot of work if it was a custom tree for each weapon and each class, or the weapon would have a generic tree amongst all classes which would be boring. If you give each class one unique talent tree for weapons, it would not be too much work and also make each class feel unique.

CriminalCupcake

McShave wrote: »

(paraphrasing of a quote from the late, great, Jeffery Bard). A dagger will...
.

You make Bard leaving sound worse than it actually is lol.

Dygz

Back in 2017, Jeff said that Advanced Weapons can have up to 5 Weapon Abilities.
I'm expecting the Weapon Ability section to include all weapon categories.
I think we can expect Daggers to have other effects besides just a Bleed. I think each weapon will have ability branches that you can place points into.

Too much work is only really a thing if the design does not already include each weapon having several branches on the skill tree.

But, we shall have to see.

bloodprophet

George Black wrote: »

Maybe I should plainly state my concern.
I am worried that weapons will be treated as stats: "increase bleed", "add slash dmg to some class abilities", "add armor penetration".

I hope that some weapons add more then just damage. Having weapon abilities (bleeds and such) I think adds depth. Especially if they have an offset cost. Gain a 3-5 second bleed but lose something else stat debuff or something.

There hasnt been much talk of active weapon abilities.

Ya really interested in what their intent is on this and the skill trees and how we can synergize the effect between character build and weapons equiped.

Are people happy with daggers just adding a bleed component to some rogue abilities?

I really hope they stay as far away from how weapons work in GW2 as possible. Where equipping weapons completely changes everything and leveling up you weapon skill opens up new skills. (this was hyper annoying to me)

Sathrago

bloodprophet wrote: »

George Black wrote: »

Maybe I should plainly state my concern.
I am worried that weapons will be treated as stats: "increase bleed", "add slash dmg to some class abilities", "add armor penetration".

I hope that some weapons add more then just damage. Having weapon abilities (bleeds and such) I think adds depth. Especially if they have an offset cost. Gain a 3-5 second bleed but lose something else stat debuff or something.

There hasnt been much talk of active weapon abilities.

Ya really interested in what their intent is on this and the skill trees and how we can synergize the effect between character build and weapons equiped.

Are people happy with daggers just adding a bleed component to some rogue abilities?

I really hope they stay as far away from how weapons work in GW2 as possible. Where equipping weapons completely changes everything and leveling up you weapon skill opens up new skills. (this was hyper annoying to me)

Agreed. I have never been a fan of games with this mechanic. Especially ESO. Oh look the ninja weeb tabaxi just snuck up and cleaved my arm off with his 2h sword, I blow him up with some magic and he runs off switching to a healing staff to stay alive. That craps lame af.

Maph

I really like Guild Wars 2 system where your weapons really dictated your build/the abilities you had access to.

I'm not necessarily hoping for AoC to be THAT tied to weapon choice, but having some things locked out unless you're wielding certain weapons could help to give each weapon choice it's own niche.

Maybe the Weapon Master (Fighter/Fighter) would be able to use weapon skills from weapons he's not currently wielding, or something like that.

George_Black

Maph wrote: »

I really like Guild Wars 2 system where your weapons really dictated your build/the abilities you had access to.

I'm not necessarily hoping for AoC to be THAT tied to weapon choice, but having some things locked out unless you're wielding certain weapons could help to give each weapon choice it's own niche.

Maybe the Weapon Master (Fighter/Fighter) would be able to use weapon skills from weapons he's not currently wielding, or something like that.

This. If you are a fighter using "Crushing blow", let's say, you shouldnt use a rapier or even a sword to perform the task.
Unless people are ok with going the AA way, where warriors summoner giant magical yellow hammers from the sky to stun.

McShave

CriminalCupcake wrote: »

McShave wrote: »

(paraphrasing of a quote from the late, great, Jeffery Bard). A dagger will...
.

You make Bard leaving sound worse than it actually is lol.

Ya, it was a joke where I try to sound like Jeffery Bard had passed away. I was going to go on a bit more with the joke, but I thought that was enough lol

Voidwalkers

I'd prefer the GW2 approach over the wow "stats stick" approach any-day though.

imo Ashes doesn't have to be like GW2 in which changing a weapon "changes everything", and "in-combat weapon-swap" could probably use some limitations to keep things realistic.

But I definitely want to see a meaningful difference between weapon types. As a melee why should I use a rapier over a sword? how about katanas? And as a ranger how do bows and crossbows differ?

It all boils down to "an opportunity for players to make meaningful choices" (and weapon type should probably be one of the most important choices), instead of just "picking the one with highest dps".

Dygz

George Black wrote: »

If you are a fighter using "Crushing blow", let's say, you shouldnt use a rapier or even a sword to perform the task.
Unless people are ok with going the AA way, where warriors summoner giant magical yellow hammers from the sky to stun.

My Cleric summons a yellow hammer for Judgement, a yellow whip for Castigation and a yellow spear for Divine Censure.

George_Black

Dygz wrote: »

George Black wrote: »

If you are a fighter using "Crushing blow", let's say, you shouldnt use a rapier or even a sword to perform the task.
Unless people are ok with going the AA way, where warriors summoner giant magical yellow hammers from the sky to stun.

My Cleric summons a yellow hammer for Judgement, a yellow whip for Castigation and a yellow spear for Divine Censure.

My fighter isnt a cleric now is he?
None of that divine stuff, you know?

Dygz

We will have to see what Fighters summon. I bet they will be able to summon some blades.

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