Why is tab target, or the original combat style in MMOs, so alienated now?

I played New World beta this weekend. It's not for me. I hated the combat.

To be frank, I have hated the way combat has been going in MMOs for many years now. I come from Everquest; the tab target games of old. I loved the combat in EQ, but I can understand a need to modernise it.

For me, the combat in SWTOR was fantastic. It felt fluid and engrossing, despite being tab target still.

In recent years the change has happened.

First we got Guild Wars 2; a game that, for me, seemed to be all about jumping around like a bloody kangaroo. ESO wasn't so bad. Wildstar was even worse than GW2.

New World's combat is about as far from my comfort zone as it is possible to get. It was like a bad nightmare for me and as far from the likes of EQ, EQ2 or SWTOR as I believe it is possible to get.

I'm middle aged with the coordination of an blind Elephant with its legs tied together. Tab target combat gave me something I could enjoy and keep up with. I bought an MMO mouse and felt I did well at combat in SWTOR. I had to move on from a button masher to using keyboard/mouse.

I'm glad Ashes is trying to develop a hybrid system, but the one thing that always made me nervous was that Intrepid wanted some form of action combat.

I just feel like MMOs are getting further and further away from something I like and enjoy to something for the skill enabled kids of the 2000s.

I'll continue to have fait in Ashes because the game seems to be endeavouring to offer something aside from combat. I can be an artisan alone. I do want to enjoy some combat though. I remember Vanguard and the ability to be an artisan solely in that game. There was a mix with combat though and you had to go to some dangerous areas to acquire rare items or finding artisan camps.

So, is it a younger generation thing? Are us old farts just out of luck now? Do I have to adapt?

This action combat is not going away, is it?

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Conrad

You can pick either 75% action combat or 75% tab target combat mode or something that's the planned target

Dygz

Action targeting feels easier/smoother.
More importantly, I like the freedom movement with the reticle even when I'm just exploring.
Also, feels faster than tab target to me.

Azherae

Action combat allows for mobility to be a far greater part of the experience, whereas tab targeting usually means that moving is either unnecessary or in some cases outright silly to indulge too much in.

(I am not a supporter of 'Action Combat' because I consider it an underdefined term, but almost all forms of it, the above description fits)

Noaani

Azherae wrote: »

Action combat allows for mobility to be a far greater part of the experience, whereas tab targeting usually means that moving is either unnecessary or in some cases outright silly to indulge too much in.

(I am not a supporter of 'Action Combat' because I consider it an underdefined term, but almost all forms of it, the above description fits)

While the above description does generally fit, there is no inherent need for a tab target game to not require as much mobility as an action combat game.

The only difference in this regard is that bunny hopping and other such stupid things are of no value in tab target games, which is a good thing.

nidriks

SWTOR was a game with wonderful mobility. I don't hold with this argument that tab target means no mobility.

I'll accept that for games like EQ. As much as I loved EQ, and the years I spent in that game are by far my best gaming memories ever, I know that style of gameplay is not going to hold up now.

I don't really love the questy nature of WOW but it wasn't a game devoid of mobility.

Let's be honest here. Much of the mobility in modern action combat games is jumping around like a bloody kangaroo.

Azherae

it is partially because I see no situation where mobility is distinct from Tab target that I can't support the general idea of 'Action Combat'.

It is also why I don't see a problem with a hybrid system. My understanding is that some people who want 'Action Combat' don't want it to be 'too easy' to target, and don't want 'just using Tab Target' for certain abilities to be effective (or 'as effective').

To be frank, I believe that people mostly don't understand what they want very well, and those few that do know some component they definitely want will push for not only that thing, but everything they are used to 'going with that thing'.

The discussion is ongoing, it's up to you if you want to start another (I don't mean this to discourage you at all).

Noaani

Azherae wrote: »

it is partially because I see no situation where mobility is distinct from Tab target that I can't support the general idea of 'Action Combat'.

Why does it need to be distinct?

Action and tab target offer differing game play experiences (far more than just the targeting system, generally speaking), there is no reason the mobility situations need to be different.

Veyrah

Azherae wrote: »

it is partially because I see no situation where mobility is distinct from Tab target that I can't support the general idea of 'Action Combat'.

It is also why I don't see a problem with a hybrid system. My understanding is that some people who want 'Action Combat' don't want it to be 'too easy' to target, and don't want 'just using Tab Target' for certain abilities to be effective (or 'as effective').

To be frank, I believe that people mostly don't understand what they want very well, and those few that do know some component they definitely want will push for not only that thing, but everything they are used to 'going with that thing'.

The discussion is ongoing, it's up to you if you want to start another (I don't mean this to discourage you at all).

I definitely feel like a lot of the people arguing for either system don't have a good idea of what they do want.

Azherae

I'm in the middle of one of my compilations now, and the majority of arguments against Tab Targeting are 'it's outdated' with no clarification on why that's a negative. A meaningful number of arguments for Action Targeting also seem to come with 'wanting to animation cancel everything' and 'wanting to use abilities while jumping' because it feels better.

I can't claim that other people don't 'really feel better' when they master their JackRabbit Stance, so there's nothing to say there. I'mma just keep crunching the data and if I find anything that doesn't amount to one of the two above (or the nearly unanimous and general dislike for the forward momentum animation lock of melee attacks), I'll add it here for the sake of the discussion, rather than waiting to only put it with the compilation. If it wasn't in the Combat Discussion thread from awhile back, that is.

I'm sure something will show up eventually. I remember people having more accurate arguments than what I'm generally seeing from the logs.

Dreoh

The entire reason I dislike basic Tab Target is because I don't like the skilllessness of it. There's no "I need to practice my aim", it's entirely "I need to practice the order I press buttons in". The latter being something extremely dull to me. I liken it to learning a guitar hero song, and every fight is just repeating that same guitar hero song every time forever.
Granted I know tab target could be less about rotations and have all situational abilities, but nearly every tab target game is about rotations.

The hybrid combat of GW2 and Wildstar had the best of both worlds. The mobile skill-based spells and the spells that could only be done via tab target. And they aren't rotation based (for the most part)

I also despise the thought of leaving whether I win or lose up to RNG, even if it's minor. Dodge chance, accuracy change, etc. are all trash mechanics to me. I want to win on my own merits, not on the merits of the Mathf.Random() function.

Azherae

Dreoh wrote: »

The entire reason I dislike basic Tab Target is because I don't like the skilllessness of it. There's no "I need to practice my aim", it's entirely "I need to practice the order I press buttons in". The latter being something extremely dull to me. I liken it to learning a guitar hero song, and every fight is just repeating that same guitar hero song every time forever.
Granted I know tab target could be less about rotations and have all situational abilities, but nearly every tab target game is about rotations.

The hybrid combat of GW2 and Wildstar had the best of both worlds. The mobile skill-based spells and the spells that could only be done via tab target. And they aren't rotation based (for the most part)

I also despise the thought of leaving whether I win or lose up to RNG, even if it's minor. Dodge chance, accuracy change, etc. are all trash mechanics to me. I want to win on my own merits, not on the merits of the Mathf.Random() function.

While I completely understand the wish for complete escape from RNG, the enemy model design would have to be incredibly tuned to avoid this. There are people who absolutely believe that they should be able to strafe and therefore avoid most attacks of monsters in PvE by strafing.

In order to make PvE, particularly group PvE, matter at all, the requirements for monster size and attack arcs would quickly move toward Tera or Monster Hunter, or their speed would increase to a point where lag would become a serious consideration (not saying it would definitely be a problem).

I do not perceive that the dullness you experience is in any way related to Tab Target, and practicing timing and reactions vs practicing aim is generally a player choice that Intrepid seems to want to maintain.

Ashes currently in Alpha does seem like a 'rotations' game. There is no evidence otherwise as yet, only theoreticals based on design structures that are in place but which don't currently have their active counterparts on the player side.

Dreoh

@Azherae That's very true, but I feel GW2 (at least the expansion content) did a good job of making good rng-less enemies. Wildstar I remember still being pretty challenging too. I don't think it's too tall of an order for Intrepid to make enemy abilities that are skill-based. Though of course it is more work, so that's up to them.

And yea, I was just responding in a general sense to OP. Ashes seems to be doing very well in these regards.

Azherae

I will continue to hope that we as players can come to some consensus on how we want combat to go, so that they can start working on enemies that fit within that combat style.

@Dreoh - As you noted, that will be the bulk of the work, and therefore any delays will probably multiply there. I tentatively oppose the 'split body, strafe while striking' option because of how lackluster I find PvE in games that have it.

I do not oppose it based on PvP outside of the common lag issues, but they are just that... common, so I still can't support it until I see the correct ratios.

Looking at the animations so far, though, 'Action Combat' is just going to be about making sure your weapon has the largest cleave cone or the best chase option. Already a common 'take' amongst content creators that cover PvP aspects...

Noaani

Dreoh wrote: »

The entire reason I dislike basic Tab Target is because I don't like the skilllessness of it. There's no "I need to practice my aim", it's entirely "I need to practice the order I press buttons in". The latter being something extremely dull to me.

I agree, I find games where you can pre-determine the best order to press buttons to be quite dull.

Yet, that is also not an inherent aspect of tab target, it is simply a sign of a poor tab target game.

A good tab target game will see knowing what abilities your next two will be, but anything past that is not guaranteed.

When done well, a tab target game takes the attention the player would need to put on aiming in an action game, and transfers that to the correct ability choice in combat. This obviously means that correct choice needs to not be pre- determined.

McShave

This topic reminds me of the old vs new FPS games. I loved the original halo trilogy. No sprint, no double jump, no wall climbing. It required tactical gameplay, positioning and knowledge of the map angles to bounce grenades the right way. But modern shooters require a player to fly across the map in half a second. I play one of those games now and I die without even seeing my enemy first lol.

The old school tab targeting with the passive auto attacks and pressing buttons off cooldown is just too slow these days. A modern game needs to have movement, dodge roll, and active combat movement. I think Ashes is implementing the right idea here. Have the quick movement, but use the tab targeting system so that your aim doesn't really matter and the abilities you use depend on the situation (do I need gap closer, is enemy cc'd, am I gonna die, etc.)

dmsephiroth

nidriks wrote: »

I played New World beta this weekend. It's not for me. I hated the combat.

I think the same as you@nidriks

I personally hated the NW combat system. I love the tab target system, maybe with a bit more +movement+ skills in it, but i don t want to play an MMO SHOOTER where i have to aim to hit with magic..no thats not fun for me at all !

Lets hope Ashes will be more fun

Azherae

About halfway through I did find two people who had a different reason.

Targeting can be easier in Action Combat when playing with the camera zoomed in, which they said is more immersive. Others also mentioned immersiveness but hadn't given this precise reason.

Nerror

Dreoh wrote: »

I also despise the thought of leaving whether I win or lose up to RNG, even if it's minor. Dodge chance, accuracy change, etc. are all trash mechanics to me. I want to win on my own merits, not on the merits of the Mathf.Random() function.

That, however, is at the very core of an MMORPG. The dice roll. You are playing a character with his or her own stats that are separate from you the player. You are not playing an extension of your own player skills like you are in shooters.

nidriks wrote: »

So, is it a younger generation thing? Are us old farts just out of luck now? Do I have to adapt?

This action combat is not going away, is it?

For MMORPGs in general in the future, I have no idea. Specifically for Ashes, Steven said that if they can't make a good action combat system, they'll go back to full tab target.

I understand the dilemma the developers are in though. Action vs. tab is definitely also an age/generation thing. MMORPG players are on average not young, and generally prefer tab target. To attract younger people, who to a higher degree dislike tab target, they are trying this hybrid system.

Azherae

Nerror wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

I also despise the thought of leaving whether I win or lose up to RNG, even if it's minor. Dodge chance, accuracy change, etc. are all trash mechanics to me. I want to win on my own merits, not on the merits of the Mathf.Random() function.

That, however, is at the very core of an MMORPG. The dice roll. You are playing a character with his or her own stats that are separate from you the player. You are not playing an extension of your own player skills like you are in shooters.

Even if so, the last discussion on this topic leaned towards a different solution for dodge chance, at least, tying the 'range at which a person's reticle sticks to the player' to their dodge chance, though it was not fully explored conceptually.

Merek

TL;DR - I can't handle games that require me to use my brain in combat, please, allow me to fight at maximum potential with little to no effort.

No. If you can't handle having to manually acquire your target, stick to those old, dead games. The MMORPG genre is adapting for the better, so adapt to survive, old man.

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