Instanced PvP ?

Battlegrounds and arena?
I do hope you put in instanced PvP
The game has great interest to me and that is a rarity after 25 years of MMOs. I do not know much about it yet but it does interest me.

As a MMO player since the days of UO, I do have some suggestions.If you put in Battlegrounds and Arena. Do it the same way Guild Wars 2 did it. Log in Day 1, go into a lobby, spec your char, pick your gear and enchantments and then queue.

It accomplishes a couple big things
1. People with very little game time, such as an hour or 2 a night, will be able to log in and get their pvp fix. Think games like CS. Most people do not have 6-8 hours a day to devote like WoW ended up requiring. Im married and have kids. I already have a job. I do not need a 2nd job just to farm the stuff i need to do PvP.

2. It ends all debate over skill vs gear. Put in every item in game on a menu and let players choose when they go into instanced pvp. Then nobody can say I got beat because you outgear me.

Ill be frank, if this is another WoW/UO., Id love to play but sadly I will have to pass. I have discovred as Blizzard is also discovering, most people these days just do not want to grind any longer. Life is to short and demanding to be spent logged into a game all day every day trying to farm yet another item just to be able to compete.

If you do BGs. Please follow WoW/Rift standards for size /format/goals. Guild Wars bgs sucked tbh.

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Dolyem

Vyc wrote: »

Battlegrounds and arena?
I do hope you put in instanced PvP
The game has great interest to me and that is a rarity after 25 years of MMOs. I do not know much about it yet but it does interest me.

As a MMO player since the days of UO, I do have some suggestions.If you put in Battlegrounds and Arena. Do it the same way Guild Wars 2 did it. Log in Day 1, go into a lobby, spec your char, pick your gear and enchantments and then queue.

It accomplishes a couple big things
1. People with very little game time, such as an hour or 2 a night, will be able to log in and get their pvp fix. Think games like CS. Most people do not have 6-8 hours a day to devote like WoW ended up requiring. Im married and have kids. I already have a job. I do not need a 2nd job just to farm the stuff i need to do PvP.

2. It ends all debate over skill vs gear. Put in every item in game on a menu and let players choose when they go into instanced pvp. Then nobody can say I got beat because you outgear me.

Ill be frank, if this is another WoW/UO., Id love to play but sadly I will have to pass. I have discovred as Blizzard is also discovering, most people these days just do not want to grind any longer. Life is to short and demanding to be spent logged into a game all day every day trying to farm yet another item just to be able to compete.

If you do BGs. Please follow WoW/Rift standards for size /format/goals. Guild Wars bgs sucked tbh.

I do hope there are battlegrounds but honestly this game is designed without the easy access crowd in mind. It is being designed for the more hardcore MMO crowd. From my understanding there is absolutely minimum handholding in this games design. In other words, yes it will take substantial time investment to be a top contender.

JamesSunderland

Vyc wrote: »

Battlegrounds and arena?
I do hope you put in instanced PvP
The game has great interest to me and that is a rarity after 25 years of MMOs. I do not know much about it yet but it does interest me.

As a MMO player since the days of UO, I do have some suggestions.If you put in Battlegrounds and Arena. Do it the same way Guild Wars 2 did it. Log in Day 1, go into a lobby, spec your char, pick your gear and enchantments and then queue.

It accomplishes a couple big things
1. People with very little game time, such as an hour or 2 a night, will be able to log in and get their pvp fix. Think games like CS. Most people do not have 6-8 hours a day to devote like WoW ended up requiring. Im married and have kids. I already have a job. I do not need a 2nd job just to farm the stuff i need to do PvP.

2. It ends all debate over skill vs gear. Put in every item in game on a menu and let players choose when they go into instanced pvp. Then nobody can say I got beat because you outgear me.

Ill be frank, if this is another WoW/UO., Id love to play but sadly I will have to pass. I have discovred as Blizzard is also discovering, most people these days just do not want to grind any longer. Life is to short and demanding to be spent logged into a game all day every day trying to farm yet another item just to be able to compete.

If you do BGs. Please follow WoW/Rift standards for size /format/goals. Guild Wars bgs sucked tbh.

Yep, there will be instanced pvp.

Arenas are instanced PvP scenarios and are not part of open world PvP.

Arenas will have 1 man, 3 man, 5 man and possibly 20 man Free-For-All (Deathmatch) group sizes.
There won't specifically be guild vs guild arenas but team-based matchmaking allows teams to face other teams.
There will be an arena ladder system.
Rewards for arena ladders will be revealed at a later time.
Titles can be received from arena play.
Arena points that can be used to buy gear are not currently in the design.
Mayors of military nodes are chosen from citizens through last man standing (gladiatorial arena style) combat.
The arena system may support cross-server combat.
Arena style combat is instanced but spectators may be possible through an interface.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas

We currently don't have information about "gear standardized" instanced pvp.

wherediditrun

Dolyem wrote: »

I do hope there are battlegrounds but honestly this game is designed without the easy access crowd in mind. It is being designed for the more hardcore MMO crowd. From my understanding there is absolutely minimum handholding in this games design. In other words, yes it will take substantial time investment to be a top contender.

What instanced pvp has to do with handholding? O_o
Beating "competitive" pvp through sunked time, however, is hand holding. As game allows even players who lack mechanic ability to compete in PvP to win through means outside of pvp mastery, like gaining stat bonuses from pve gear or crafting etc.

Question is what the focus is and from where you do your measurements.

Dolyem

wherediditrun wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

I do hope there are battlegrounds but honestly this game is designed without the easy access crowd in mind. It is being designed for the more hardcore MMO crowd. From my understanding there is absolutely minimum handholding in this games design. In other words, yes it will take substantial time investment to be a top contender.

What instanced pvp has to do with handholding? O_o
Beating "competitive" pvp through sunked time, however, is hand holding. As game allows even players who lack mechanic ability to compete in PvP to win through means outside of pvp mastery, like gaining stat bonuses from pve gear or crafting etc.

Question is what the focus is and from where you do your measurements.

Well, in a PvX game, I would consider the gear you acquire outside of pvp instances (or even within them) should affect your ability inside of those PvP instances and outside of them. In other words, you shouldn't just have your hand held by having everything handed to you just for the PvP instances, you should fight with the gear you acquire.

JustVine

Mmos have gear progressions. This is to give people an easy goal to lean on. It makes for bad competition because uneven footing isn't an equal fight. Competitive minded players who ask for things like Wherediditrun is asking for want skill to matter more than stats boosted by gear. Games like Neverwinter and BDO change skills cc and damage levels for PvP on some skills because it makes the fight unbalanced in a 1v1. Accounting for gear scores is no different. It's easier to adjust those things in an instanced setting. BDO does something like this. I am sure there are other games that do as well.

It's not handholding, just someone valuing different things than you.

Taleof2Cities

wherediditrun wrote: »

Beating "competitive" pvp through sunked time, however, is hand holding.

Ashes isn't going to let you download the game and then jump into an instanced battleground with max gear and stats, @wherediditrun. Best to get that out of your head earlier than later.

@Dolyem summarized it pretty well (above) with the gear and level progression ... which is a hallmark of any MMO.

Dolyem

JustVine wrote: »

Mmos have gear progressions. This is to give people an easy goal to lean on. It makes for bad competition because uneven footing isn't an equal fight. Competitive minded players who ask for things like Wherediditrun is asking for want skill to matter more than stats boosted by gear. Games like Neverwinter and BDO change skills cc and damage levels for PvP on some skills because it makes the fight unbalanced in a 1v1. Accounting for gear scores is no different. It's easier to adjust those things in an instanced setting. BDO does something like this. I am sure there are other games that do as well.

It's not handholding, just someone valuing different things than you.

I can see where youre coming from but in the matter of a PvX game, I believe it is. A PvX focused game should utilize both PvE and PvP to progress in either side. Now in an MMO where PvP and PvE are separated, yea I can see it being fine to have scaling to put everyone on even ground, it worked really well in WoW Legion.

wherediditrun

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Ashes isn't going to let you download the game and then jump into an instanced battleground with max gear and stats, @wherediditrun. Best to get that out of your head earlier than later.

Oh my, I don't expect this. Barely any MMO's do this. Also not sure if that makes sense for battlegrounds when it's more about lulz and giggles.

It does make sense for Arena's however if you want to establish a competitive scene to be taken seriously, doesn't have to be max gear, just make sure that PvX progression does not bleed into competitive pvp. Think of it as more of a side activity outside the main gameplay loop none effect the other other than a title to the name or cosmetics. Sounds fun for me and probably for at least for a few more people and does not effect anyone else. Also prove useful to have a more clear reading on spec balance as an additional dataset to improve the 'main game', although not the basis for balance obviously as externally there are a lot more factors in PvX to consider.

Dolyem wrote: »

I can see where youre coming from but in the matter of a PvX game, I believe it is. A PvX focused game should utilize both PvE and PvP to progress in either side. Now in an MMO where PvP and PvE are separated, yea I can see it being fine to have scaling to put everyone on even ground, it worked really well in WoW Legion.

What prevents having PvX and Arena PvP? Arena PvP should have no other progression other than league or ranking and perhaps a title to signify it or a nice coat / crown / mount (cosmetics) to go along with it. Hell, I don't care about cosmetics and mounts, just leave the title for the "season", ultimately in a good game PvP is it's own reward with some honors. Perhaps you could elaborate on why you regard these as mutually exclusive? Arena's even make sense lore / setting wise. So the proposed exclusivity sounds totally arbitrary from where I see it.

Sometimes I'm under impression that people feel threatened by something they can't overcome through the grind in MMO's. In other words, everything should be participation trophy provided they participated long enough. Quite cynical view point, I know. But under that assumption a lot of things some people say start to make more sense.

Noaani

Open world PvP - you stand to actually lose items on you (gathered items if not corrupt, actual items if corrupt).

Instanced PvP - you stand to lose nothing.

Is anyone going to continue on with the notion that arena PvP is not hand holding?

Okeydoke

Noaani wrote: »

Open world PvP - you stand to actually lose items on you (gathered items if not corrupt, actual items if corrupt).

Instanced PvP - you stand to lose nothing.

Is anyone going to continue on with the notion that arena PvP is not hand holding?

I'd rather not see them in the game, but how are they hand holding? Because they facilitate free, easy access, no risk pvp?

Noaani

Okeydoke wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Open world PvP - you stand to actually lose items on you (gathered items if not corrupt, actual items if corrupt).

Instanced PvP - you stand to lose nothing.

Is anyone going to continue on with the notion that arena PvP is not hand holding?

I'd rather not see them in the game, but how are they hand holding? Because they facilitate free, easy access, no risk pvp?

Yes.

If PvE existed without risk, we would all agree that is hand holding.

Thus, if PvP exists without risk, that is hand holding.

Dolyem

wherediditrun wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Ashes isn't going to let you download the game and then jump into an instanced battleground with max gear and stats, @wherediditrun. Best to get that out of your head earlier than later.

Oh my, I don't expect this. Barely any MMO's do this. Also not sure if that makes sense for battlegrounds when it's more about lulz and giggles.

It does make sense for Arena's however if you want to establish a competitive scene to be taken seriously, doesn't have to be max gear, just make sure that PvX progression does not bleed into competitive pvp. Think of it as more of a side activity outside the main gameplay loop none effect the other other than a title to the name or cosmetics. Sounds fun for me and probably for at least for a few more people and does not effect anyone else. Also prove useful to have a more clear reading on spec balance as an additional dataset to improve the 'main game', although not the basis for balance obviously as externally there are a lot more factors in PvX to consider.

Dolyem wrote: »

I can see where youre coming from but in the matter of a PvX game, I believe it is. A PvX focused game should utilize both PvE and PvP to progress in either side. Now in an MMO where PvP and PvE are separated, yea I can see it being fine to have scaling to put everyone on even ground, it worked really well in WoW Legion.

What prevents having PvX and Arena PvP? Arena PvP should have no other progression other than league or ranking and perhaps a title to signify it or a nice coat / crown / mount (cosmetics) to go along with it. Hell, I don't care about cosmetics and mounts, just leave the title for the "season", ultimately in a good game PvP is it's own reward with some honors. Perhaps you could elaborate on why you regard these as mutually exclusive? Arena's even make sense lore / setting wise. So the proposed exclusivity sounds totally arbitrary from where I see it.

Sometimes I'm under impression that people feel threatened by something they can't overcome through the grind in MMO's. In other words, everything should be participation trophy provided they participated long enough. Quite cynical view point, I know. But under that assumption a lot of things some people say start to make more sense.

Not really sure what you are referring to with my post. You can have PvX and Arenas, but in a PvX game I was simply stating that you should not just automatically put everyone on an even gear level in instanced PvP because the game as a whole revolves around ALL of the content you complete. If it was a game like WoW where the PvE and PvP are very separate, then it isn't as much of a deal to just scale everyone to an even level. Just doesnt make sense for a PvX game.

Okeydoke

If they provided loot and competitive progression in the game I'd call them hand holding. Otherwise in a game like Ashes they're just pointless theme park instance distractions that fragment the player base to me. Don't like them.

Edit: I do understand that people like their pvp and pve prowess rated and ranked in the fixed framework that an instance can provide. Ashes already has a leaderboard system in mind that's ranking all kinds of things. And at this point those rankings apparently will include instanced arena and whatever amount of instanced dungeon encounters there will be. Whatever, the less the better lol

Sigtyr

Noaani wrote: »

Okeydoke wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Open world PvP - you stand to actually lose items on you (gathered items if not corrupt, actual items if corrupt).

Instanced PvP - you stand to lose nothing.

Is anyone going to continue on with the notion that arena PvP is not hand holding?

I'd rather not see them in the game, but how are they hand holding? Because they facilitate free, easy access, no risk pvp?

Yes.

If PvE existed without risk, we would all agree that is hand holding.

Thus, if PvP exists without risk, that is hand holding.

The main difference being that risk free PvE is rewarded with loot. As long as there is no loot given for risk free PvP it serves no purpose other than entertainment, prestige, or to practice for the real thing. Totally harmless IMO.

Noaani

Sigtyr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Okeydoke wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Open world PvP - you stand to actually lose items on you (gathered items if not corrupt, actual items if corrupt).

Instanced PvP - you stand to lose nothing.

Is anyone going to continue on with the notion that arena PvP is not hand holding?

I'd rather not see them in the game, but how are they hand holding? Because they facilitate free, easy access, no risk pvp?

Yes.

If PvE existed without risk, we would all agree that is hand holding.

Thus, if PvP exists without risk, that is hand holding.

The main difference being that risk free PvE is rewarded with loot. As long as there is no loot given for risk free PvP it serves no purpose other than entertainment, prestige, or to practice for the real thing. Totally harmless IMO.

I didn't say it wasn't harmless in that regard (it is harmful in other, larger picture ways), I said it was handholding.

Sigtyr

Noaani wrote: »

Sigtyr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Okeydoke wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Open world PvP - you stand to actually lose items on you (gathered items if not corrupt, actual items if corrupt).

Instanced PvP - you stand to lose nothing.

Is anyone going to continue on with the notion that arena PvP is not hand holding?

I'd rather not see them in the game, but how are they hand holding? Because they facilitate free, easy access, no risk pvp?

Yes.

If PvE existed without risk, we would all agree that is hand holding.

Thus, if PvP exists without risk, that is hand holding.

The main difference being that risk free PvE is rewarded with loot. As long as there is no loot given for risk free PvP it serves no purpose other than entertainment, prestige, or to practice for the real thing. Totally harmless IMO.

I didn't say it wasn't harmless in that regard (it is harmful in other, larger picture ways), I said it was handholding.

It's handholding the same way that studying for a test is handholding, or practicing in a sport, or learning how to dance before going to a club.

Also instanced, risk free PvP isn't harmful in the way that I get the sense you will argue it is, as long as it is kept small and there are no rewards. It exists in plenty of games where open world PvP also exists and doesn't detract from it in any way. People always argue it will, and tbh I used to take their side. However after 15 years playing MMOs I can't think of one time where it actually did in any meaningful way. Maybe you can give an example of how it is harmful in a big picture way.

Dygz

Ashes battlegrounds are Caravan attack/defense and Sieges.

Noaani

Sigtyr wrote: »

It's handholding the same way that studying for a test is handholding

No, it's handholding in the same way that a mock exam using the real exams questions is handholding.

Sigtyr wrote: »

Also instanced, risk free PvP isn't harmful in the way that I get the sense you will argue it is, as long as it is kept small and there are no rewards.

I don't think you know enough about what I would argue in this situation to be able to make this claim.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Ashes battlegrounds are Caravan attack/defense and Sieges.

The title of the thread is "Instanced PvP", not sure what the relevance of this post is.

Okeydoke

hahah. ahh god. so epic

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