What does immersion mean to you?

Merriam Webster wrote:

im·mer·sion | \i-ˈmər-zhən,-shən\

: the act of immersing or the state of being immersed: such as
(a) absorbing involvement

'Immersion' comes up frequently in our discussions as a loaded way to try to influence an argument one way or another. A few examples, adding streamer tags 'breaks immersion,' proximity chat increases immersion for some and breaks it for others, the minimap, quest icons, and sparkly particles on gathering nodes impact immersion for some. The funny
thing is that immersion is a completely subjective experience for players, and may even be different for the same player in different contexts (e.g. when I'm soloing in the wild versus in the arena with my pvp team).

For me, immersion hinges on the world environment. Does it feel alive? Do I feel like the world is dangerous? Am I at the center of the game-world, or will it just shrug if I die?

There are a handful of games I felt just *nailed it* for my sense of immersion. Number one (by far) is Red Dead Redemption 2/RD Online, that game-world feels completely organic the animals, the flora, the weather, the NPCs everything just flows whether I'm there or not. Witcher 3 is a close second, just spend 5 minutes in Novigrad and you'll understand what I mean. Third I can basically sum up as 'Bethesda' the top recent being FO4/Skyrim. I completely bought into a nuked Boston at night with night-vision carefully searching through rubble and trying not to get killed. My baseline goes waay back to Ultima VII: Black Gate - which introduced a world that moved on it's own accord. NPCs had schedules, guards has paths, there was a flow (rough by today's standards but amazing in 1992).

So, I thought I would engage this discussion directly, since it's something I think (maybe) we all care about, but in our own way. Some questions:

What does immersion mean to you?
Do you have favorite memories when you have felt the most immersed?
Are there specific games that exemplify 'an immersive experience'?

Super curious to hear your thoughts...

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Comments

Songcaller

I'm not sure. I can get immersed in large and small scale PvP, however, with death penalties I am far less immersed and far more adrenaline fuelled. It is a difficult balance. In raids I'm less immersed and more adrenaline fuelled - on farm I'm neither immersed or adrenaline fuelled.

I have found it difficult the older I grow. I used to skip school and college and be immersed for 12 to 16 hours a day in my youth (from the age of 12). However, I have not found the urge, the immersion or the adrenaline substantial enough in older years (35 now). I'm not sure if this is due to the nature of the current games (Child-like, simplistic, dumbed down, more restrictive) or the fact that I haven't played a decent MMO for some years.

Edit: Spelling mistakes.

George_Black

Not playing with a screen full of addons.
I prefer player skill over data.

I dont like weird costumes and weird mounts

I dont like child-like or loly races

I dont like over realism with armors or weapons (banner lord, life is feudal etc etc). I also dont like steampunk and advanced technology bullshiet if we are going for swords and bows and wizards.

CROW3

George Black wrote: »

I also dont like steampunk and advanced technology bullshiet if we are going for swords and bows and wizards.

Curious, are early guns/muskets immersion breaking as well?

Conrad

Honestly varies by game.

My first rpg game was Baldurs Gate and was pretty much my gateway drug to Dragon Age Origins and Mass Effect, as well as some great MMOs.

I think its the world, the characters, the classes, the gear and so on. Basically how the whole game holds together in lore and gameplay.

I want to be able to make the character I want, enjoy the gameplay of the class I picked as well as play it as one would expect of that specific combo.

I think that's the best I can explain my point of view

CROW3

Conrad wrote: »

I think its the world, the characters, the classes, the gear and so on. Basically how the whole game holds together in lore and gameplay.

Yeah, well said. I loved the Baldur's Gate series (I probably still have the original 6 discs somewhere in my house). That faerie elf whose wings were cut off in BG2 made me want to kill that main baddie so much.

It's interesting, cause thinking back - much of the environmental immersion was defined by the soundscape. I didn't see chipmunks and birds, but I heard chittering and chirping among the trees and therefore believed they were part of the world.

George_Black

CROW3 wrote: »

George Black wrote: »

I also dont like steampunk and advanced technology bullshiet if we are going for swords and bows and wizards.

Curious, are early guns/muskets immersion breaking as well?

Well yeah if you are playing a game with necromancers paladins warriors dragons and swords.

Ravel

Immersion is directly related to the suspension of disbelief.

You know that the world and story are not real, but you are willing to go along with it.

Usually, what breaks immersions is that the world or the story breaks the internal cohesion or logic that you agreed to go along with, and that fulfilled your need for escaping reality in a world that stimulated your fantasy and gave enjoyment.

Its is an unwritten contract between game and player that creates an expectation that may be challenged but not broken.

George_Black

I also want to add as immersion breaking happy-happy-go-lucky npcs.
When a world is burning and there is chaos pain misser destruction, fears of the unknown and whether the future will be death, I HATE IT when the npcs dont reflect that.

Take Witcher 3 for example. The comic relief of that game was peasants struggling with alchoholism, ignorance intolorance and fear.
Nobody was acting like "we are a cool gang of thieves/assassins but we are a lovely, likable bunch that makes cherry pies and cupcakes"
Now look at ESO. Every npc is a kind-hearted cool smartass, while at the same time 3 alliances are slaughtering each other, an empire is crumpling and demons are invading the planet.
80% of the interactions with npcs in eso is gamebreaking.

Also..american accents are immersion breaking.
I'd rather the npcs have a mix of english scottish and irish accents.
I am playing Spellforce 3 right now and I cant stand they accent. I love the game and the characters are good enough. But man I just picture California every time they talk.

CROW3

George Black wrote: »

Also..american accents are gamebreaking. ... But man I just picture California every time they talk.

I was born and raised in L.A. - and totally agree with this (in fantasy settings). My one exception, is Val Kilmer's Mad Martigan.

JustVine

George Black wrote: »

I also want to add as immersion breaking happy-happy-go-lucky npcs.
When a world is burning and there is chaos pain misser destruction, fears of the unknown and whether the future will be death, I HATE IT when the npcs dont reflect that.

Take Witcher 3 for example. The comic relief of that game was peasants struggling with alchoholism, ignorance intolorance and fear.
Nobody was acting like "we are a cool gang of thieves/assassins but we are a lovely, likable bunch that makes cherry pies and cupcakes"
Now look at ESO. Every npc is a kind-hearted cool smartass, while at the same time 3 alliances are slaughtering each other, an empire is crumpling and demons are invading the planet.
80% of the interactions with npcs in eso is gamebreaking.

Also..american accents are immersion breaking.
I'd rather the npcs have a mix of english scottish and irish accents.
I am playing Spellforce 3 right now and I cant stand they accent. I love the game and the characters are good enough. But man I just picture California every time they talk.

Hey we finally agree on anything. \o/

I don't percieve Ashes will /always/ be burning and war torn etc, but yes a dynamic mix of npc behaviors that actually fit the situation is great.

People who are super cheery in war situations should be portrayed as crazies or cracking under pressure. Humor has a place in the bleak, but it should be modest and a ray in the dark or sombre.

I also agree on the American accents thing. It's not tat they don't have a place in a fantasy setting.... It just better be only Kaelar and not even the majority of Kaelar. Or maybe Tulnar only lol.

Conrad

CROW3 wrote: »

Conrad wrote: »

I think its the world, the characters, the classes, the gear and so on. Basically how the whole game holds together in lore and gameplay.

Yeah, well said. I loved the Baldur's Gate series (I probably still have the original 6 discs somewhere in my house). That faerie elf whose wings were cut off in BG2 made me want to kill that main baddie so much.

It's interesting, cause thinking back - much of the environmental immersion was defined by the soundscape. I didn't see chipmunks and birds, but I heard chittering and chirping among the trees and therefore believed they were part of the world.

Funny how the community of Baldurs Gate 2 is always in a fight of who's the best love interest. Tbh, I think all the female LI are great but varying by who you prefer, you like that person more. Like in my case I always pick Jaheira 😅
Kinda role play my character as him having a crush on her before inevitably taking that chance to "win" her. Works out just as one would imagine it

CROW3

@Conrad - Totally. Jaheira was a bad-ass. Good point on the love interest aspect though. I'd have to think whether Morrigan made DA more immersive. Certainly Yennefer and Triss made the story and implications in Witcher 3 much more immersive.

Conrad

CROW3 wrote: »

@Conrad - Totally. Jaheira was a bad-ass. Good point on the love interest aspect though. I'd have to think whether Morrigan made DA more immersive. Certainly Yennefer and Triss made the story and implications in Witcher 3 much more immersive.

Badass and like the nanny big sis of the group.

As for Morrigan, yes she made DAO more immersive, and honestly I think she's a way better love interest than Leliana. She turns from a goth... kinda bitch to a lovey dive wife. Can't say no. And in DAI (even if I hate that shit game) Morrigan looks like an 11/10.

They sure did. I always pick Triss tho because she is hot af in games

Vhaeyne

To answer the question:
I think Immersion is the full and total attempt to emulate a realistic, believable world within the limitations of current technology.

This could be up to and including things like a literal version of the matrix, or the fact that this may all be a simulation.

I would like to add to the conversation:

I think a more interesting question is: How Immersive should and MMORPG be?

For me, the answer is that I want a fantasy setting to explore and play in, but I don't want immersion to take priority over fun.

It is more immersive for me to feed and water my mount to keep it from dying. Hunting for food and purifying water over and over to keep my mount alive is great in a game like ARK, but it is not why I play MMORPGs. I normally play a game like Ark for a few weeks with friends until we burn out and have to take a break for a while.

MMORPGs, on the other hand, I tend to upkeep for years at a time, only take small few week breaks to play games like Ark. If I had to be fully immersed in an alternate reality every time I played an MMORPG, the genre would not appeal to me as much.

I am not saying I would not try an MMORPG that focuses on Immersion. I am just saying that I would not want to play it for as long. What I like about MMORPGs is that I can have three monitors up. One with the game, one with YouTube, and one with discord friends. I am able to spend hours watching YouTube, grinding and running dungeons while talking to friends, all without having my focus monopolized by immersion.

When it comes time to raid or PvP shift my focus to just the game and discord for a few hours, but I normally want to divide my attention on many things. Which is something Immersion inhibits. Immersion asks for my full attention, and I only want to do that for so long. I love it is short bursts, but I can only play something like Elite in VR for so long before the full Immersion starts to be taxing.

I hope this extra bit I added is valuable to the discussion in some way.

Dygz

(This is probably better than any of the Dev Discussion topics)

Immersion means I feel like my character is living in the virtual world and I'm not thinking about real world stuff. Mostly that I am experiencing the life of my character as much as possible.

Streamer tags break immersion because that has us thinking about a real world service that is outside of the game setting.
Proximity chat breaks immersion because there's too much random real world noise bleeding into the game setting - more real world noise and chatter than anything associated with the game.

Mini-map is a tool that helps with navigation in a world with restricted senses. We miss quite a few navigation cues that we use to help orient with 5+ senses. The draw distance in Ashes helps with navigation, making a mini-map less crucial. I prefer the NW compass over mini-map, though.

Quest icons are quality-of-life. Without them, it just wastes a ton of time trying to find a quest.

Sparkly particles on gathering nodes can also be quality of life. It's kind of like quest icons:
If you can harvest any gathering node you can recognize, and the nodes are reasonably easy to recognize, it's fine not have sparklies. But, in an RPG, what your character can notice may be different than what you as player can notice. Doesn't necessarily have to be sparklies, though.

First thing I loved about EQ immersion was orienting by sound on Kobold Pups.
Playing in an RPG where you can hunt by sound blew me away.

In some ways, I might say I don't care about danger - it's kind of like risk v reward - it's not a primary draw, but... the first time I was in a battle and my screen went black from Blind was an exhilarating rush of adrenaline and panic. Screen going wavy from being drunk is also fun and immersive.
Starting with EQ, the first thing I typically do is run from one racial starting area to another. There's a bit of thrill trying to survive that run, but I don't know that I would relate that to immersion.
Achieving signature class abilities, like Spirit of the Wind, makes me feel immersed - like I am finally, actually my class.
Games like KOA: Reckoning and Valheim make me truly feel like I'm a Rogue with stealth. And the combat in those games turn me into a hunter/stalker. Even though I am typically a carebear, I love slitting throats in KOA:Reckoning and I love butchering Deer in Valheim. Games that drastically change my playstyle due to immersion are fantastic.
Scouting dangerous areas via Stealth typically have me feeling immersed - when I level, I like to Stealth as far across the map as I can until I reach mobs that can see through my Stealth and one-shot me.
Last week, I played BDO for the first time. The action combat is too actiony. I don't feel like any class even though I'm playing Hashashin. I feel like I'm basically just button-mashing. I could be a fighter or a monk - it's just a melee class with a bunch of abilities. No Stealth so far. I did find an appearance for my avatar that's OK - sometimes I feel immersed in my BDO avatar appearance.

One measure of how immersed I feel is how many screenshots and vids I take.

One of my favorite immersion memories was in Vanilla EQ.
My Gnome Cleric was leaving Ak'Kanon and noticed a party sitting just inside the gates, medding to regain some Health. I dutifully Healed them and patted myself on the back for a job well-done. As I turned around to head out into the wild, I ran smack into a pair of knobby knees.
I thought, "Hunh. What's this???" I tilted my head up, up, up and realized I'd run into an Ogre...
just as it smashed me to a pithy pulp with its giant hamfist.

Dygz

Vhaeyne wrote: »

For me, the answer is that I want a fantasy setting to explore and play in, but I don't want immersion to take priority over fun.

It is more immersive for me to feed and water my mount to keep it from dying. Hunting for food and purifying water over and over to keep my mount alive is great in a game like ARK, but it is not why I play MMORPGs. I normally play a game like Ark for a few weeks with friends until we burn out and have to take a break for a while.

I want to play an RPG; not a survival game.
And, I want to feel like I'm in a movie or novel - I'm not interested in a sim that is as close to the real world as possible.
CoE game design just seems way to tedious. Like, they want you to have to dress appropriately for the weather as you explore the world, such that your character suffers from heatstroke or frostbite if you don't change into the proper clothing.
I just don't find the fun in that. I want to play; not work.

GrilledCheeseMojito

A big part for me that doesn't get brought up often is the soundscape. I want different types of shoes on my character to sound different, and have specific sounds based on surfaces. If I'm wearing full plate I better be clinking along on every surface, with some heavy splashes along water. I want to walk through a field and hear chittering in the trees, or wander a desert and hear the rushing wind or things creaking in the heat. You don't need very high technology to achieve this - a few defined terrain types, various environmental mixed sounds - but you get a lot out of it by making the environment feel like something that's alive.

Also, I think some mobs should make noise even when not engaged with you. I find it really weird that, say, bears only make noise when facing you, when it's fairly realistic for them to grunt at each other in a group.

Ironhope

Immersion to me means focusing on the in-game character you've just created and are perfecting and on his adventures, being ''kidnapped'' by the music and enviroment and transported to another place and time, to another world, and forgetting, just for a few hours, about all real life problems.

No matter how old much time passes and how many problems I have in my life, I will never forget what I felt when I bought wow and was questing through Elwynn Forest, Redridge, Duskwood, etc with my paladin

world%20of%20warcraft%20elwynn%20forest.jpg

Percimes

I'm no longer looking for immersion in a game. I can still get carried away by the storytelling or the virtual world, but there are too many meta elements to truly let go. Simply trying to find a weakness in an opponent is enough to be aware of the Matrix, no matter how marvellous it is. Any communication with other players shatters immersion.

And then there are the illogical things tied to the limitations of computing a virtual world.

Damn, I've grown old.

Azherae

Watching multiple Imperial and Federal Fleet Carriers converge on one of your faction's core systems to fight in a pitched, on-off war lasting a month that you triggered by supporting a different faction to expand into your system weeks prior, as part of an impromptu alliance involving them acting as the shield against challenges from the rising opposing Faction since they would eventually strong-arm a victory in an election, but can't necessarily bring to bear enough firepower to win a war against your Superpower's fleet of Elite combat pilot players.

Then scheming daily about how to make this fun and somewhat beneficial for everyone involved until the opposing Faction finally gives up, assuming they ever do.

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