The Star Citizen Effect

So I am going to preface this by saying I Kickstarted this game WAY back when. I have Alpha2 access that I have been patiently waiting for since then. However, I fear this game is starting to follow the same feature creep problems Star Citizen has in terms of extending development. Not to mention the crazy amount of MTX bundles (some with pretty big price tags) to pay for those features.

From what I have seen the game on the surface seems to be promising (much like Star Citizen was early on). But I am a bit worried they are focusing too much on MTX bundles and not on releasing the game.

I am not trying to bash the game at all, I am VERY excited to play this game. But the direction they are going feels all too similar to Star Citizen(another game I kickstarted) that really hasn't panned out and that worries me.

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Talents

As far as we know they haven't added anything "new" that would create feature/scope creep. Everything they're adding/have added was in Steven's original game design document from like 2015/16.

The cosmetics don't create scope creep since they need to create the models for the cosmetics anyway since they will be mobs/buildings/ships/etc. in-game anyway, so they may as well sell them in the shop for some extra money if they're gonna make them anyway.

bloodprophet

Seems far to many people think they have a couple of hundred people building this project for the last several years.
Here is all 21people plus Steven that worked there in October 2017.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBBUXH6unZc

As Talents has said they they haven't added new features but have cut a few.
Project for people thinking this is taking to long. Go come up with an idea , design and build it. Come back and let us all know how long it takes.(Basic bird houses and such don't count)

Agann

Again I was only expressing concern for the bundles similar to star citizen. I am well aware of the size of the team. If those bundles are to help fund the company so he doesn't have to sell out to a bigger publisher then I get that and am all for it. I just don't want to get burned again similar to Star Citizen.

Sathrago

I see. It's the dwarves fault then. I agree we should just delete them from the game.

(im kidding get rid of elves instead)

Nerror

Agann wrote: »

Again I was only expressing concern for the bundles similar to star citizen. I am well aware of the size of the team. If those bundles are to help fund the company so he doesn't have to sell out to a bigger publisher then I get that and am all for it. I just don't want to get burned again similar to Star Citizen.

I understand the concern, but it really is unwarranted here. They don't suffer from scope creep. The project was just very ambitious from the start, so development takes time.

As for the packs they differ crucially from SC. In SC you are actually buying ships. In Ashes you are only buying skins for stuff you have to earn ingame. The packs aren't cheap, but they are also meant to be support for the game's development, not just a pure cosmetic skin transaction.

Dygz

Talents wrote: »

As far as we know they haven't added anything "new" that would create feature/scope creep. Everything they're adding/have added was in Steven's original game design document from like 2015/16.

The cosmetics don't create scope creep since they need to create the models for the cosmetics anyway since they will be mobs/buildings/ships/etc. in-game anyway, so they may as well sell them in the shop for some extra money if they're gonna make them anyway.

Well, technically, the new Dünir models are new.
They are still messing with hybrid combat and need to get that right.
They seem to be still messing with Orcs - enough so that they weren't in Alpha One.
I think we haven't seen new Tulnar concept art since the kickstarter/2017.
We can't even get Religious Node and Military Node articles because those are subject to change. (The last one was May 2019)
And we don't have a Lead Designer on the horizon.

Significantly changing features and systems due to player feedback is scope creep - it's going to significantly impact release dates (not that we have any public release dates right now).
This is also an aspect of Risk v Reward.

But, that should be OK.
What we want is a quality game - not a quick and dirty, crappy game.
The devs are going to need time to create the quality.
The "before 2020" date that Steven used to spout before Margaret was hired was always unrealistic.
MMORPGs typically take about 5 years... Ashes is ambitious enough in design that we should expect a few more years beyond that. If a quality game can be released in 6 or 7 years, that's a bonus.

Enigmatic Sage

Sathrago wrote: »

I see. It's the dwarves fault then. I agree we should just delete them from the game.

(im kidding get rid of elves instead)

Lol.

The elves are typically at the root and cause of many problems in many games/stories. I bet the corruption of Verra is somehow linked to them causing the planets races to flee the planet.

would be funny though if it was true.

bloodprophet

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

I see. It's the dwarves fault then. I agree we should just delete them from the game.

(im kidding get rid of elves instead)

Lol.

The elves are typically at the root and cause of many problems in many games/stories. I bet the corruption of Verra is somehow linked to them causing the planets races to flee the planet. would be funny though if it was true.

Even if it's not. We can blame them anyway.

Sathrago

bloodprophet wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

I see. It's the dwarves fault then. I agree we should just delete them from the game.

(im kidding get rid of elves instead)

Lol.

The elves are typically at the root and cause of many problems in many games/stories. I bet the corruption of Verra is somehow linked to them causing the planets races to flee the planet. would be funny though if it was true.

Even if it's not. We can blame them anyway.

CROW3

Sathrago wrote: »

I see. It's the dwarves fault then. I agree we should just delete them from the game.

Bwhahahahahaha! 🤣

😄

🙂

😕

🤨

/edit KOS list:
/add Sathrago
/save

🤫

Gizban

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

I see. It's the dwarves fault then. I agree we should just delete them from the game.

(im kidding get rid of elves instead)

Lol.

The elves are typically at the root and cause of many problems in many games/stories. I bet the corruption of Verra is somehow linked to them causing the planets races to flee the planet. would be funny though if it was true.

Sure are! I'm playing Skyrim again (only played 204hrs first time) and see the dirty work of those filthy Thalmor everywhere!

Gizban

Was navel stuff in the kickstarter?
I'm not sure, but its the only thing that pops into my head as possible feature creep.

I'm also a SC backer, and I really don't see a comparison. They have lost their selves in the minutia: a monthly dev report had a team working for a month on the way eggs jiggled or some crap like that.
Last one I bothered reading. Seeya in 6 years, SC.

CROW3

Yeah, I think that was one of Steven’s carrots when the dollar goal was hit.

maouw

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

I see. It's the dwarves fault then. I agree we should just delete them from the game.

(im kidding get rid of elves instead)

Lol.

The elves are typically at the root and cause of many problems in many games/stories. I bet the corruption of Verra is somehow linked to them causing the planets races to flee the planet. would be funny though if it was true.

This is basically confirmed in the lore: Atrax ruled the Toren empire. Torens are half-human/half-elven.
I blame the human side.

Yuyukoyay

As someone outside of the Star Citizen loop from day 1. I could tell that what happened to the game was going to happen. There is overhyping compared to hyping a product comparable to what the idea earned. Star Citizen was not a idea worth the hype it got. Thus it ended up getting massively overhyped. It was impossible not to get disappointed by that point.

Same thing kinda happened to Star Wars Galaxies which caused a huge influx of players who weren't going to like that game. Which caused a lot of the changes that the core playerbase ended up disliking.

Ashes of Creation has so much clear cut direction that it is impossible to predict what is going to pop out in the end. I can't put blind faith into someones first game with absolutely no doubt. However, there are a lot of similarities with this game's development that WoW also had. WoW was one of the rockiest developments a game ever got. The game was on the verge of failure from the day it released. However, it didn't end up failing because they made the changes the game needed to keep going.

This isn't going to be some magic mmo with no flaws in it. However, the team behind this game may be able to make the changes this game needs to also keep going. This is also by far the most ambitious mmo ever created. I mean their goal is to fix core problems behind every mmo that came before it. Along with adding unique game modes no modern mmo currently has and has had since Lineage 2.

This level of ambition along with clear signs of improvement are something Star Citizen never had. It's also a good sign that whenever we get developer videos on their channel we often get drastically changing concepts of existing ideas into potentially better designs.

It's clear to see a failure when you know what to look for. Generally it's when the developers talk about things that do not matter or are not core mechanics in a good game. There were times when this development team even might have made some of those mistakes. The development ashes has now is pretty good though. So I'll give them until they start trying to sell me character boosts at least. xD

Atama

This game is nothing like Star Citizen.

This game actually has progress, Star Citizen will never be released.

The only time this game was looking like SC was when they made APOC, but that came and went quickly. If this game was SC, then APOC would still be in development, and they’d have created another spin off game like a flying gryphon flight simulator combat game.

Alpha 1 was much closer to a real game than Star Citizen has gotten in their demos. And SC has been in development for twice as long. There’s really no comparison.

unknown

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Atama

Odal wrote: »

I agree though that Ashes promises a lot and it will require huge amount of work to make it good (dude, I wish I was developer of some kind, seems like fun!). I think what they need is attract more talented developers to work on the project, getting passionate and more professional designers, maybe who have worked for other MMORPG:s like WoW etc. It's probably not the easiest to get these people to move to a certain place for work I can imagine. Especially for senior positions.

Well they’ve done that. They have experienced developers from other games. Jeff Bard, the original lead designer, worked on EQ2 for a half decade. Michael Bacon, who develops environments also came from EQ2 and also worked on Saints Row 1 and 2 back in the day. Lead Producer Bryan Langford was at Blizzard for more than a decade and NCSOFT (maker of the Lineage MMOs) for 4 years. And so on. They already have what you think they need.

daveywavey

Odal wrote: »

Anyway, I don't think 3 developers is enough to say they "have what you say they need". They need many many more to make a successful MMORPG. I know they have some good people and are looking for more people and hopefully they can find them

LOL - they were some examples, they weren't the only examples...

daveywavey

Odal wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Odal wrote: »

Anyway, I don't think 3 developers is enough to say they "have what you say they need". They need many many more to make a successful MMORPG. I know they have some good people and are looking for more people and hopefully they can find them

LOL - they were some examples, they weren't the only examples...

Said who my man? Unless you go through a complete list of developers and their previous achievements there is no way of knowing if "They already have what you think they need." as he wrote.
Jeff Bard as also left the company, to add to it.

Im sure there is a lot of good developers though as stated. Hopefully they can attract more of them, they don't grow on trees from what I understand. Especially not good programmers.

Well, for starters, here's the link to the wiki's list of staff: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Intrepid_Studios#Staff

Some of them have their previous games mentioned. Others will likely have worked on other projects that just aren't listed there. I'm absolutely not going to go through them all listing out the games they've worked on, cos you seem like the kind of person who just wouldn't believe me anyway.

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