MMO Etiquette

So I just watched an early impressions video of New World. One of the impressions he gave was of his annoyance at the toxicity of the New World community.

Kill stealing for skins is a huge problem in New World. I played the open beta, before refunding, and was myself alarmed at how many would instantly skin my animal kills as if they were their own right.

The reviewer then went on to say that one person had called a culprit a bottom-feeder in annoyance. He earned himself a ban for 24 hours. The bottom-feeder? Yep, nada.

MMO etiquette was a high priority in my favourite game of old. Everquest. I believe it should be pushed and enforced in Ashes to attain the best community possible.

So, how does Ashes intend to maintain a strong and friendly community? One free of toxicity and neglecting of basic MMO food behaviour.

Or, if you like, should Ashes attempt to enforce a solid community by enforcing MMO etiquette?

In fairness, it has been my impression from following this game since before kickstarter that the community is friendly. However, not everyone that follows Ashes grew up with the rules of games like Everquest. MMOs have changed, but shouldn't basic courtesy be paramount?

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bigepeen

AoC gives players the freedom to instantly nuke players like this. You see someone being a dick and stealing your kill, you have the player agency to kill them and cost them some exp, a percentage of their mats, and whatever else is included in the standard death penalty. Maybe next time, they think twice about stealing someone's kill.

Nothing will really stop people from behaving like this except for fear of consequences. This is why there needs to be freedom to attack other players anywhere in the open world. The reason New World has failed in designing a good game system is because it restricts player freedom through their flagging system, and lets players get away with toxic behavior with no chance of consequences.

Khronus

It will be different in AoC but I don't feel like writing out the essay that my fingertips are buzzing to write.

My guild is playing new world. by no means is it a good game. It is great to pass the time and get the team organized. I hosted world pvp/roaming last night. We raided a fort, killed a ton of people, talked shit in chat and voip. Good old time.

Complaining about losing skinning, or trees, or nodes to mine....that is all just really silly. This is the dumbed down version of what new world was supposed to be. There is a place for "MMO Etiquette" but new world is not it. AoC will have a certain level of this because of the nature of the game. The age of players is part of it but what a player expects to get out of the game is exactly what they will put into the game. If everyone logs into AoC with the same mind set that the community does it new world....aoc's community is going to be rough around the edges until players realize sitting around town and never communicating is not how it is supposed to be played. Same with being a toxic ass to everyone. I have faith that the AoC community will be both competitive but also have some sort of "code" where we can shit talk, murder each other, but also respect each other enough to not cause too many long term issues on each server.

CROW3

Yes, and keep in mind the corruption system will still apply to you if the players stealing your mobs kills are green.

Atama

Shut up you jerk.

_{(Just kidding but how funny would it be if that's all I wrote?)}

Vaknar

I'm very happy that the community for this game is already so awesome! I hope that Ashes as a game not only redefines the genre but that the community will as well!

nidriks

Atama wrote: »

Shut up you jerk.

_{(Just kidding but how funny would it be if that's all I wrote?)}

I see your point. However, I feel I need to add that I did paraphrase.

Of course, I do feel that anyone who actively steals corpses to skin deserves what they are called. Within reason, of course (I understand that toxic behaviour, in excess, in response to toxic behaviour would not help). But sternly making it known that a behaviour is not tolerated would be a better precedent.

In any event, if the whole situation was allowed to be told then punishment should not have been to just one.

In WoW I would bypass animal corpses numerous times unless I was sure no one was about to claim them.

I believe there is no excuse for rude behaviour. Maybe I am just old.

JustVine

nidriks

JustVine wrote: »

Man people were stealing my kills in Alpha, I don't know what y'all think is going to be that different about it. It's an open world game where monsters don't have a priority flagging system for combatants. That's just going to happen; ettiqute, corruption, or not. It costs me more to kill you than to 'grumble at the random hit and run on a mob I am fighting. It costs rude trolls very little to be 'helpful' or malicious. PvP doesn't solve this in the slightest. Not going to change their behavior.

We, as a community, should attempt to change that behaviour. I believe it is possible.

I also don't think PvP is the answer.

Atama

nidriks wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Shut up you jerk.

_{(Just kidding but how funny would it be if that's all I wrote?)}

I see your point. However, I feel I need to add that I did paraphrase.

Of course, I do feel that anyone who actively steals corpses to skin deserves what they are called. Within reason, of course (I understand that toxic behaviour, in excess, in response to toxic behaviour would not help). But sternly making it known that a behaviour is not tolerated would be a better precedent.

In any event, if the whole situation was allowed to be told then punishment should not have been to just one.

In WoW I would bypass animal corpses numerous times unless I was sure no one was about to claim them.

I believe there is no excuse for rude behaviour. Maybe I am just old.

I’m old too. I played EQ in ‘99-‘01. Etiquette was critical. That was a game where you often had to camp one spot with a group for hours and if some jerk came in to screw things up you might ruin a whole day for a bunch of people. It would be many minutes between spawns and you’d have to wait many spawns for the rare enemy to appear and then the drop for an item wasn’t guaranteed, and then only one person could claim it. We didn’t have loot tools and stuff, it was honor system. You had to have a social contract that everyone followed and if you didn’t then the game wouldn’t work.

That was backed up by a big group of dedicated customer support people. But I think part of the reason why Verant (later SOE) was able to afford that staff is that it was supplemented with “volunteers” who received no pay, only free subscriptions.

They had to stop doing that though, because I believe a court ruled that once you offer someone anything as compensation to work for you, they are employees for legal purposes and need a minimum wage and other benefits as required by labor laws.

I think that made such large customer service staff groups no longer profitable. I don’t think an MMO can afford the kind of enforcement that EQ could at the beginning. No GMs that can respond to every request in seconds. As much as I wish it was possible.

Some of the misbehavior in AoC should be policed by players though via PvP. So I hope that between that and customer service staff enforcing any really egregious transgressions (harassment, really abusive behavior, cheating) any bad apples will find the game is unwelcoming to them.

George_Black

Here is a copy paste from the previous "good manners demand" topic...

I find childlike behaviour less toxic than those that pretend to act mature. They drag the drama on and on, wheras with "toxic" people you either walk away or kill them and move on.

Sane community? Keep a sane community? Who are you or anybody to tell others what to do? Leave people alone.

For me the only reasonable thing is tackling real issues like exesive insulting and real racism. Take a pic of the chat send it to IS. IS can issue a warning or ban straight away if there is a real offense there.

That's all. People label toxic everything that isn't about giving then validation and a feeling of belonging. You cant even argue anymore without someone turning to victimhood and making threats for a ban.
People get killed ingame in a game that has killing in it and they call it harrasment. Weak in mind, seek others set up rules that ruin everybodys fun just because their bubble bursted.

Grow up people. It's not the community that's not sane. It's you that you havent learned to ignore, argue facts or pvp back.

George_Black

Did somebody steal your skin? Kill them. Did you get corruption points because you took revenge? Deal with it. I guess you are an adult. Figure it out.

bigepeen

nidriks wrote: »

In any event, if the whole situation was allowed to be told then punishment should not have been to just one.

I'm not sure what this sentence means, please clarify.

nidriks wrote: »

But sternly making it known that a behaviour is not tolerated would be a better precedent.

I believe there is no excuse for rude behaviour. Maybe I am just old.

Lmao yea, this doesn't work on most people who steal kills. Sorry, but most won't care what you say to them about it.

nidriks wrote: »

I also don't think PvP is the answer.

Why isn't PvP the answer?

Open world PvP exists as a valid option for dealing with any conflict such as someone messing with a grinding spot. In fact, open world PvP is encouraged as a way to contest resources. If enough people kill those for violating an unwritten rule of stealing kills, then it provides a disincentive for those that engage in that behavior. Seems fair to me.

Enigmatic Sage

JustVine wrote: »

.

BaSkA_9x2

New World is poorly designed, it has nothing to do with etiquette.

Also, etiquette is overrated, especially in a game like AoC where people can make your life miserable if you're a lil bitch.

Gizban

BaSkA13 wrote: »

New World is poorly designed, it has nothing to do with etiquette.

Also, etiquette is overrated, especially in a game like AoC where people can make your life miserable if you're a lil bitch.

You actually have that backwards. Do you realize that?

'Manners are overrated' Says the piggy at the trough, eh?

nidriks

bigepeen wrote: »

nidriks wrote: »

In any event, if the whole situation was allowed to be told then punishment should not have been to just one.

I'm not sure what this sentence means, please clarify.

nidriks wrote: »

But sternly making it known that a behaviour is not tolerated would be a better precedent.

I believe there is no excuse for rude behaviour. Maybe I am just old.

Lmao yea, this doesn't work on most people who steal kills. Sorry, but most won't care what you say to them about it.

nidriks wrote: »

I also don't think PvP is the answer.

Why isn't PvP the answer?

Open world PvP exists as a valid option for dealing with any conflict such as someone messing with a grinding spot. In fact, open world PvP is encouraged as a way to contest resources. If enough people kill those for violating an unwritten rule of stealing kills, then it provides a disincentive for those that engage in that behavior. Seems fair to me.

1. I mean that if the whole story is know, i.e. that the insult has been chucked because someone is shadowing and stealing his kills, then why is just the aggravated side banned?

2. PvP doesn't solely work as an option because it would not be an option for me. I plan to play Ashes with the bare necessities of combat, and I hope that is an option for those that want to do similar.

It was an option available some years back in Vanguard.

I will however hopefully have a guild behind me, so the option should exist to gather the help to deal with those who disrupt the community.

However, if the troublemaker has not killed anyone, just interfered with a player's progress then it will be the reacter who risks gaining corruption.

I personally believe a community functions better when there are unwritten rules. Valour, honour, rules of combat. Whatever you might call it. A player who kills needlessly can be dealt with by PvP. A troublemaker needs to be taught. A community can be educated.

Communities have suffered in MMOs for years partly because those rules are not treasured.

Some reactions have made me wonder about this community.

As Mack (worthabuy), who made the video I referred to, said, there are a lot of youngsters who have not grown up with the etiquette of games like EQ. NW is certainly a sign of that.

I hope the community can push for the simple rules that benefit the game.

Gizban

George Black wrote: »

Here is a copy paste from the previous "good manners demand" topic...

I find childlike behaviour less toxic than those that pretend to act mature. They drag the drama on and on, wheras with "toxic" people you either walk away or kill them and move on.

Sane community? Keep a sane community? Who are you or anybody to tell others what to do? Leave people alone.

For me the only reasonable thing is tackling real issues like exesive insulting and real racism. Take a pic of the chat send it to IS. IS can issue a warning or ban straight away if there is a real offense there.

That's all. People label toxic everything that isn't about giving then validation and a feeling of belonging. You cant even argue anymore without someone turning to victimhood and making threats for a ban.
People get killed ingame in a game that has killing in it and they call it harrasment. Weak in mind, seek others set up rules that ruin everybodys fun just because their bubble bursted.

Grow up people. It's not the community that's not sane. It's you that you havent learned to ignore, argue facts or pvp back.

If someone is 'acting mature', how do you know if its genuine or 'pretend'? I'm doubting you...

'Leave people alone.'

Because that is always a recipe for success! You don't have children, do you?

"Weak in mind, seek others set up rules that ruin everybodys fun.."
Is this a Hitler quote? Or a novel quote about some coward who dies in a horrible comeuppance?

Ever heard of a 'law'? They are generally agreed upon by a community. They exist in the "Real World", their purpose is to prevent people from doing bad/evil/prohibited things. People must be governed, they don't have the ability to self-regulate. How do I know? History.

You might be able to trust a person. 'People'? Nope.

nidriks

Atama wrote: »

nidriks wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Shut up you jerk.

_{(Just kidding but how funny would it be if that's all I wrote?)}

I see your point. However, I feel I need to add that I did paraphrase.

Of course, I do feel that anyone who actively steals corpses to skin deserves what they are called. Within reason, of course (I understand that toxic behaviour, in excess, in response to toxic behaviour would not help). But sternly making it known that a behaviour is not tolerated would be a better precedent.

In any event, if the whole situation was allowed to be told then punishment should not have been to just one.

In WoW I would bypass animal corpses numerous times unless I was sure no one was about to claim them.

I believe there is no excuse for rude behaviour. Maybe I am just old.

I’m old too. I played EQ in ‘99-‘01. Etiquette was critical. That was a game where you often had to camp one spot with a group for hours and if some jerk came in to screw things up you might ruin a whole day for a bunch of people. It would be many minutes between spawns and you’d have to wait many spawns for the rare enemy to appear and then the drop for an item wasn’t guaranteed, and then only one person could claim it. We didn’t have loot tools and stuff, it was honor system. You had to have a social contract that everyone followed and if you didn’t then the game wouldn’t work.

That was backed up by a big group of dedicated customer support people. But I think part of the reason why Verant (later SOE) was able to afford that staff is that it was supplemented with “volunteers” who received no pay, only free subscriptions.

They had to stop doing that though, because I believe a court ruled that once you offer someone anything as compensation to work for you, they are employees for legal purposes and need a minimum wage and other benefits as required by labor laws.

I think that made such large customer service staff groups no longer profitable. I don’t think an MMO can afford the kind of enforcement that EQ could at the beginning. No GMs that can respond to every request in seconds. As much as I wish it was possible.

Some of the misbehavior in AoC should be policed by players though via PvP. So I hope that between that and customer service staff enforcing any really egregious transgressions (harassment, really abusive behavior, cheating) any bad apples will find the game is unwelcoming to them.

Well, I could solve one problem. I'd happily GM in my own time if I had that time. If I could give up work I certainly would. 😁

bigepeen

nidriks wrote: »

1. I mean that if the whole story is know, i.e. that the insult has been chucked because someone is shadowing and stealing his kills, then why is just the aggravated side banned?

Okay, I think I got what you're saying. Yes there should not be a way to report people for griefing or behavioral stuff, because this system can be abused by making false reports.

Players should have the freedom to choose to be an asshole, but other players should also have the freedom to kill them for being one. Maybe by the time players have an interaction with you, they will be less likely to do something that is usually frowned upon because they've been killed for it repeatedly in the past.

nidriks wrote: »

2. PvP doesn't solely work as an option because it would not be an option for me. I plan to play Ashes with the bare necessities of combat, and I hope that is an option for those that want to do similar.

Then yes, your guild should be the answer. This is supposed to be the solution to a lot of conflicts in the open world.

Most times, combat in the open world won't be completely fair or balanced by its nature, so you need help from guildmates to put the balance in your favor or at least to give you a decent chance of winning.

nidriks wrote: »

As Mack (worthabuy), who made the video I referred to, said, there are a lot of youngsters who have not grown up with the etiquette of games like EQ. NW is certainly a sign of that.

EQ was ages ago. The internet was a different place back then. Players have evolved past the excitement of just getting to play with others in an MMO. Etiquette still exists, but there are a lot of people who are desensitized and aren't ashamed to not follow it in an online game. Either way, it's not the end of the world if someone slights you in a online game that gives you the freedom to do something about it.

George_Black

Hey @pyreal

The OP complained about people taking his skin in NW. Well that's what happens when you listen to weak minded people and you create yet another mmo in which you cant kill another player in the open world without their consent for PvP.

How the f did you get Hitler involved in there?
You are more of a dictator than me, demanding people to "behave themselves" in a video game.

If anybody hasnt used serious offensive language there is NOTHING that's going to force people to follow an "etiquette". Which "rEaL woRL" do you live in?

Telling me about laws...

You mean the laws that change on the fly, eg. an employer cant dismiss an employee for medical related reasons, yet in 2021 it was ok to do so?

Wakanda laws do you want in a video game?
If the programming code has been designed to allow an action IT'S legal.
If there is no code for, let's say a cleric/bard taking a selfie by a lv3 node, guess what? Taking selfies is illegal in AoC.

How about you let the developers say what actions merrit ban and you can get your notion of etiquette and shvt.
Is that mature enough for ya?

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