THE Solution to Leveling AND “Archetypes” —— Be something new!

This is the short version because I lost the first one. Sorry, it was great. I’d love a part time job thinking about these things. Thanks!

There is no leveling as we know it. There are skill levels and skill groups that match corresponding enemy/event types.

If I spend all day for a year killing boars, my skill at killing boars is going to be great. I’ll be good at killing all pigs, and better at killing mammals in general. If I did it all with an axe, I’m going to be the axe king. My defense against the above types will be good too.

Later in the game, a long distance away, I find myself upon a group dying repeatedly to a boar humanoid boss. I can help, and I do. We easily defeat the boss. I leave with huge confidence and get into a fight with a baby dragon that spits ice. I’ve never fought against ice before, nor have I fought against anything that flies. I died because my moves aren’t as effective against these types… yet.

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Gh0stSK

Not sure if it’s there yet or not but there should be a key cast of characters, like a brand, that exist on every server. They can develop differently on each server.. skills, strengths, armor, weapons, spells… but they retain a similar look, attitude, and color scheme. With all the variation, there have to be recognizable memories across the entire user base. How cool to have them vary slightly across servers. They need to slowly grow and develop, using a system similar to nodes, and similar to the one I posted above. This keeps the game interesting long term and across servers.

Server fading events…
Be newwww! Why not, yolo?

daveywavey

I would imagine that the amount of work they've already put into the archetype system suggests that this idea would be needed for a different game. Can't see it happening here.

Dizz1

Korea games already done these kind of systems before.

The result is bad, basically create an huge gap of old players and new players, you won't want these systems in Ashes.

Noaani

Here's the problem with a system like this.

If a new content drop happens, and there is a lot of really hard content but none of it is mammalian, the OP is going to have a really hard time of it.

I'm all for gaining a bonus to mob types if you kill enough of them - I'd encourage a system to meet that end in any game that I could. However, this should be a bonus on top of the progression system, not the base of the progression system.

Gh0stSK

I’d say I agree with the counters here but can anyone tweak it to make it work instead of shoot it down? How has it failed before and what could be changed to make it work?

To start, maybe some of the skill passes over as a baseline for other skills. So.. you start a little higher with swords even though you’ve never used one, because you’re really good with axes (hand weapons in general).

IMO.. The new content should be hard when it first drops!

daveywavey

Gh0stSK wrote: »

I’d say I agree with the counters here but can anyone tweak it to make it work instead of shoot it down? How has it failed before and what could be changed to make it work?

To start, maybe some of the skill passes over as a baseline for other skills. So.. you start a little higher with swords even though you’ve never used one, because you’re really good with axes (hand weapons in general).

IMO.. The new content should be hard when it first drops!

I think as Noaani suggested, it'd be better as an addition to the levelling system, rather than a replacement. I remember in the Guild Wars expansion Nightfall, the further along the main questline you were, or the more of a certain type of enemy you killed, the better your Rank in the Sunspear Title Track, and as your rank got higher, you'd get a bonus to your damage against the main questline enemies. If it was going to be in-game, it'd need to be something like that. Nothing too big, but a small boost just to give you a slight edge. It'd be super interesting if, on selecting a small increase to a certain type of creature, you also had to select a small decrease on a different type.

Dygz

It's not a solution. It's also not really an RPG.
Could be a fun game though.

Azherae

Methodology:
Give Passives that suit specific enemies and resistances. Possibly weapon skill levels explicitly.

FFXI's implementation:
When a class has multiple weapons, you will 'cap' your accuracy and attack with the weapon you use the most, the fastest (through use of it against enemies at-level). This does not prevent you from hitting the 'cap' per level eventually, with any weapon, you merely have to use it under similar conditions. The cap itself exists for balance purposes. An endgame 'Merits' system allows specialization, but due to the 'restrictions on effectiveness of weapon by job class' this is seldom relevant.

As for the enemy type, abilities such as Undead Killer cause the player to be more effective against Undead enemies by 'intimidation', causing them to randomly not attack at a certain rate, increasing the player's defense against them. Other options such as inflicting short CC or negative statuses could be used.

Resistances are similar.

Optimized Implementation I use for design:
Characters get passive skills at level X. When they want to change this specific passive, they pay some amount of EXP related to how much they had to gain to reach level X. So a character with 'Resist Ice Rank 4' can change to 'Resist Ice Rank 3' + 'Resist Wind Rank 1' after a certain amount of EXP gain, then repeat 3x more to reach only 'Resist Wind Rank 4'. Roleplayers may 'go fight something that does Wind damage' to gain the EXP, then change (no bonus exp is awarded for doing so in current model). Mechanics players just need to gain EXP in any form, and can build and keep a stockpile of 'excess EXP' once at endgame, for changing these things so that they are able to instantly adapt to content. Also, prevents a massive rush of those players into the 'leveling zone' containing the 'Wind using enemy' all at once (they'll probably end up there after, since their resistances have changed now and their Ice-enemy based leveling zone may no longer be optimal for certain classes).

This could also be used for enemies by granting the aforementioned 'X Killer' traits, regardless of their effects. Possibly limit by titles acquired by killing some number of the enemy type.

As of my last simulation of this approach, negative effects are minimized (technically, none found). Players who 'want everyone's experience to be a story' and who want to impose this way of play on others such as 'high level mechanical focused players' may find it insufficient, however it is not the role of design to force group A to be subject to group B when both can be accommodated, outside of balance considerations.

Therefore please note any balance considerations.

George_Black

Dont fix what isnt broken.

Vaknar

daveywavey wrote: »

Gh0stSK wrote: »

I’d say I agree with the counters here but can anyone tweak it to make it work instead of shoot it down? How has it failed before and what could be changed to make it work?

To start, maybe some of the skill passes over as a baseline for other skills. So.. you start a little higher with swords even though you’ve never used one, because you’re really good with axes (hand weapons in general).

IMO.. The new content should be hard when it first drops!

I think as Noaani suggested, it'd be better as an addition to the levelling system, rather than a replacement. I remember in the Guild Wars expansion Nightfall, the further along the main questline you were, or the more of a certain type of enemy you killed, the better your Rank in the Sunspear Title Track, and as your rank got higher, you'd get a bonus to your damage against the main questline enemies. If it was going to be in-game, it'd need to be something like that. Nothing too big, but a small boost just to give you a slight edge. It'd be super interesting if, on selecting a small increase to a certain type of creature, you also had to select a small decrease on a different type.

Very interesting! That could make a system like the one OP is talking about work, I imagine. Would be interesting to see it implemented into a western game at some point.

Noaani

EQ2 had a system of titles where you would get a title based on how many of a given mob type you killed.

Hunter of * for something like 100 kills. Slayer of * for 500 or so.
I do remember specifically that the top one was Destroyer of * for 10,000

The game didn't have a bonus system hooked in to titles when I played it, but you could easily take just that one system and apply an applicable bonus to each title, and that gives players a real bonus against any specific mob type they have killed many of.

For weapons, many games have a skill system where the more you use a weapon, the higher the kill you have in it gets.

In most games, this just results in players maxing all skills they can, so isn't really worth it. Some games have a limitless (or near enough) cap, which means players are rewarded for botting, basically, and thisnisnt a good system either.

What I'd like to see in this regard is a system where weapon skills are a thing, but they have caps, and are are opposed.

The more you use swords, the better your sword skill gets (this could be more granular, with short sword use increasing short sword skill a lot, and sword skill a little).

However, as your sword skill goes up, your other skills go down. Make the game in a way where people probably need a number of different skills, and where the higher a skill is, the more it reduces other skills, and you have a game where players need to change things up in order to remain viable.

Edit: the first of the above could work in Ashes, the second absolutely could not work.

Khronus

A system where titles gave you a boost to something would be pretty interesting. Obviously not something overpowered but it would make title hunting even more unique. Being able to change your title to further min/max your character and all that.

I think it would even be pretty badass to be able to semi tell what a player is doing based on their title. A whole raid of players passing by using the "destroyer of dragons" title would instantly make me notify the guild that our enemy is heading to a raid. Don't know if this would break immersion for some but it would be a feature I would enjoy.

daveywavey

Khronus wrote: »

I think it would even be pretty badass to be able to semi tell what a player is doing based on their title. A whole raid of players passing by using the "destroyer of dragons" title would instantly make me notify the guild that our enemy is heading to a raid. Don't know if this would break immersion for some but it would be a feature I would enjoy.

I dunno, if they're that good at killing dragons, it stands to reason that they'd be at least reasonably well known in the world. So, seeing them pass by, you could conceivably imagine some people whispering to each other: "Hey, there go the dragon slayers!" Might even add to the immersion!

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