Experiences playing on the New Archeage Unchained Fresh Server

One of the things I noticed which could be a huge issue in ashes is having power gaps that are too large between more hardcore players and casual players in an open PvP environment. I noticed it during the alpha testing that the lvl 15s with good gear just crush the ones with lesser good gear without trying to a point of making it uncompetitive not just an advantage. I would highly recommend closing the power gap between levels/equipment for the more even playingfield between differently leveled/geared players. It's a better experience for all involved, even the ones with the better gear/levels. I still think the advantage should be there but just not as much. My experience in Archeage trying to farm and then getting 100 --> 0 in 1-2 seconds over and over was a very unfun experience. I'm always up for a pvp fight but not like that. I would love to hear other people's opinions on this!

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Sathrago

Well that's just how some combos work in Archeage, If someone is sweaty enough they will find that combo in any game that has meaningful level and gear progression.

The argument here is that some players are dedicating more time and energy to the game and using said time and energy they destroy casual players. Not everyone can be a winner my friend, they put the effort into the game and life is not fair, they have more time to play. I am sorry if that seems unfair to you, but that is not something that can be addressed without serious damage to the foundation of the game.
See, if they are going red to do it they risk jail time. If they are attacking the enemy faction, well that's the side you signed up against so go call your own sweats or start playing the meta pvp builds.

Now for how to take this in regards to ashes of creation, I believe this same exact thing will happen here and no amount of brain power will devise a way to balance out pvp during the level experience. We also have the corruption system as a way to deter one sided fights like that, as if someone can kill you as quickly as you describe in ashes, that means the person is either too high level, or flagging red against you. They are risking quite a bit to attack you, so either go on you way, defend yourself, or even take up bounty hunting yourself to make sure your player experience is not so one-sided.

truelyyy

Sathrago wrote: »

Well that's just how some combos work in Archeage, If someone is sweaty enough they will find that combo in any game that has meaningful level and gear progression.

The argument here is that some players are dedicating more time and energy to the game and using said time and energy they destroy casual players. Not everyone can be a winner my friend, they put the effort into the game and life is not fair, they have more time to play. I am sorry if that seems unfair to you, but that is not something that can be addressed without serious damage to the foundation of the game.
See, if they are going red to do it they risk jail time. If they are attacking the enemy faction, well that's the side you signed up against so go call your own sweats or start playing the meta pvp builds.

Now for how to take this in regards to ashes of creation, I believe this same exact thing will happen here and no amount of brain power will devise a way to balance out pvp during the level experience. We also have the corruption system as a way to deter one sided fights like that, as if someone can kill you as quickly as you describe in ashes, that means the person is either too high level, or flagging red against you. They are risking quite a bit to attack you, so either go on you way, defend yourself, or even take up bounty hunting yourself to make sure your player experience is not so one-sided.

You seem to have misunderstood my point, I didn't say remove the power gap, I said flatten the gap, where lets say fights would happen which wouldn't end in corruption because the power difference being too great.

Also I forgot to mention, this point was at max level, yes during levelling it will of course happen.

Thinking about it, they do this in Return of Reckoning private server I played where underleveled players are bumped up, but by basically not making the less levelled / geared players completely useless but still at a disadvantage makes for really good/fun gameplay.

and corruption can take care of where there huge power gaps between players.

Noaani

In Ashes, there is an added corruption penalty for killing a non-combatant that is a lower level than you.

This is all that is needed to deal with this issue, imo.

JamesSunderland

Archeage main source of character power gap is definitely gear disparity,
i would say gear in Archeage represents about 85%-95% of players power.

Archeage Early Game and Mid game is a one-shot fiesta as people heavily invest in their weapons first and mostly neglect their armour, Hybrid builds aren't very viable so most people either go full glass cannon or Tanky AF also the overall Time to Kill in AA is fairly low.

Steven has said that gear has approximately a 40-50% influence on a player's overall power in the game and that Time to kill will be around 30-60 seconds.

So i believe such power disparities because of gear on same level characters to the point of one-two shots(other than glass cannon vs glass cannon) most likely won't be a thing in Ashes.

truelyyy

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Archeage main source of character power gap is definitely gear disparity,
i would say gear in Archeage represents about 85%-95% of players power.

Archeage Early Game and Mid game is a one-shot fiesta as people heavily invest in their weapons first and mostly neglect their armour, Hybrid builds aren't very viable so most people either go full glass cannon or Tanky AF also the overall Time to Kill in AA is fairly low.

Steven has said that gear has approximately a 40-50% influence on a player's overall power in the game and that Time to kill will be around 30-60 seconds.

So i believe such power disparities because of gear on same level characters to the point of one-two shots(other than glass cannon vs glass cannon) most likely won't be a thing in Ashes.

Yea I hope so, that's the point of the post. It makes for very unfun gameplay imo.

CROW3

Noaani wrote: »

In Ashes, there is an added corruption penalty for killing a non-combatant that is a lower level than you.

This is all that is needed to deal with this issue, imo.

Agreed. I’ve been playing the Mortal Online 2 beta - which is open world pvp with full loot. I’ve been testing with Ashes in Mind. There is a tangible fear in MO2 that really prevents most in world interaction. The presence of a corruption system would be a huge help to improve these interactions.

truelyyy

CROW3 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

In Ashes, there is an added corruption penalty for killing a non-combatant that is a lower level than you.

This is all that is needed to deal with this issue, imo.

Agreed. I’ve been playing the Mortal Online 2 beta - which is open world pvp with full loot. I’ve been testing with Ashes in Mind. There is a tangible fear in MO2 that really prevents most in world interaction. The presence of a corruption system would be a huge help to improve these interactions.

yea, I'm sure corruption may have lots of loopholes so lots of testing will be needed

Luthienstorm

"One of the things I noticed which could be a huge issue in ashes is having power gaps that are too large between more hardcore players and casual players in an open PvP environment. I still think the advantage should be there but just not as much. My experience in Archeage trying to farm and then getting 100 --> 0 in 1-2 seconds over and over was a very unfun experience."

An MMORPG is "in game balanced on" gear, level, and skill. It might have been fun for you but it was probably fun for them. Games in essence are a battle of wits, discovery, and optimization in a "safe place". (As in your decision doesn't get you killed or ruin your life) Steven's time to kill time avg was 30-60 seconds. Most people want a power gap...they just want their power gap to be on the high side. That's how most people make decisions. People think their decision is the most "right" or brings the most utility. MMO's aren't mean to be "balanced", just fair. Corruption should deal with the killing over and over part.

Let's be realistic though there are people who are going to have a 10% better gear, knowledge, and build. If they kill you in 20 seconds or straight up counter your build decreasing kill time to 15...that's just the way it is.

Jonta

Thought all the hardcore mmo players wanted this ? I've got more time so my stuff is better or have I been reading the wrong forum ?

Vhaeyne

truely wrote: »

yea, I'm sure corruption may have lots of loopholes so lots of testing will be needed

It's been tested since 2003 when Lineage 2 came first launched. The only thing that is unproven are the tweaks Steven has made to L2's "Karma System" to make the corruption system. On paper, some tweaks are an improvement to the Karma system. So the corruption system could be better. The Karma system was not perfect, but it did a hell of a job keeping the game from being a pure gank box.

truelyyy

Luthienstorm wrote: »

"One of the things I noticed which could be a huge issue in ashes is having power gaps that are too large between more hardcore players and casual players in an open PvP environment. I still think the advantage should be there but just not as much. My experience in Archeage trying to farm and then getting 100 --> 0 in 1-2 seconds over and over was a very unfun experience."

An MMORPG is "in game balanced on" gear, level, and skill. It might have been fun for you but it was probably fun for them. Games in essence are a battle of wits, discovery, and optimization in a "safe place". (As in your decision doesn't get you killed or ruin your life) Steven's time to kill time avg was 30-60 seconds. Most people want a power gap...they just want their power gap to be on the high side. That's how most people make decisions. People think their decision is the most "right" or brings the most utility. MMO's aren't mean to be "balanced", just fair. Corruption should deal with the killing over and over part.

Let's be realistic though there are people who are going to have a 10% better gear, knowledge, and build. If they kill you in 20 seconds or straight up counter your build decreasing kill time to 15...that's just the way it is.

yea what you state sounds good to me

Don't think I agree with your statement about people wanting the power gap to be high, I think that's a warped perspective of the more niche harcore community as the more casual audience which is the higher numbers of players would not want the power gap to be high.

Games in essence are a battle of wits, discovery, and optimization in a "safe place" - Well this is highly situational. In theory it sounds good, just depends on the reality of the situation. In theory I agree that in other words you are saying that gameplay is king.

Even in the unbalanced nature of MMos, there still needs to be balance which is kind of my point, otherwise the unbalance just takes away all the gameplay of the game which again = unfun.

truelyyy

JONTA wrote: »

Thought all the hardcore mmo players wanted this ? I've got more time so my stuff is better or have I been reading the wrong forum ?

Sure there are some nerds that enjoy just destroying people with gear advantage but the actually good players prefer good gameplay and challenge. I'm sure recking people is enjoyable for a while but even that gets old and franky from what I saw in Archeage just leaves a highly toxic community is all thats left which means it's always in small game territory.

Zarrath

After everything I have read about this game, this game does not seem like it is for, nor will it cater to, the traditional definition of the ‘casual player.’

Steven even said that the game will not be for everyone.

I don’t disagree with most of the points made, I don’t think that the disparity should be massive, but disparity in general is realistic. It’s like a brand new footsoldier who just finished training and is thrust onto the field of war going face to face with a grizzled veteran of many battles. Extremely unlikely that that battle ends in the novices favor, I’d say 1 time out of 10,000.

Templating is not the way to go either, because templating takes away the need for meaningful gear progression in general, and makes the feel of getting good gear much less significant. If I can just not worry much about getting the best gear - and working other progression systems - and throw myself right into the fight as a player who has played for a few months fighting someone who has played for a few years, I shouldn’t be able to win.

HOWEVER: There are caveats. PvP must be primarily skill driven. I should not be running around ripping players apart who are the same level as me as a button mashing novice who doesn’t understand my class or how to play it just because my gear is better than theirs.

One would generally imagine, however, that in a game like this one is supposed to be, where participation rewards and hand outs aren’t a thing - that players who are geared to the teeth also are very skilled and know their classes well.

At least that is what I would like to imagine will be the case.

The balance to strike will be how to balance the need for gear with the necessity to master your class. Both of those need to be important.

My biggest worry in all of these regards is that todays gamer is more concerned about instant gratification. If it takes time, they don’t want it. I am worried that the population of classic mmorpg gamers has dwindled over the years, and as a result, the AoC team will have to make the game ‘easier’ in order to build a player base that is big enough to facilitate/fund the development of continuous, meaningful content and keep the game alive.

Zarrath

truely wrote: »

JONTA wrote: »

Thought all the hardcore mmo players wanted this ? I've got more time so my stuff is better or have I been reading the wrong forum ?

Sure there are some nerds that enjoy just destroying people with gear advantage but the actually good players prefer good gameplay and challenge. I'm sure recking people is enjoyable for a while but even that gets old and franky from what I saw in Archeage just leaves a highly toxic community is all thats left which means it's always in small game territory.

This is why I think the corruption system should be brutal against that kind of play, but should be intuitive if possible.

I 100% would prefer to fight players that are my equals because that is where you get that dopamine rush.

But if I am running around in the world and a group of 10 lower leveled players decide to gang up on me for a kill, I should be able to plow through them and not get corruption as a result. The corruption system should be able to tell the difference. This means players who like to grief and bully for no reason get punished, but also means that the high fantasy aspect of the game remains intact.

:::insert reference: If Fingolfin, an elf, can stand toe toe with and wound Morgoth, one of the oldest gods…I should be able to slaughter 10 weaklings who want to gang up on me as a max level, heavily geared veteran player in a high fantasy setting:::

Noaani

Barrakus wrote: »

HOWEVER: There are caveats. PvP must be primarily skill driven. I should not be running around ripping players apart who are the same level as me as a button mashing novice who doesn’t understand my class or how to play it just because my gear is better than theirs.

But if gear doesn't make a decent difference, what is the point of progressing via gear?

If you are not trying to progress via gear, what is the point of playing?

And don't say "fun". If all a player wants is progression-less fun, then are myriad lobby based or other non-persistent games for them to play. the entire point of a persistent world in terms of gameplay is progression.

So, if there is no progression, why bother?

Vhaeyne

Insert MJ popcorn meme...

truelyyy

Noaani wrote: »

Barrakus wrote: »

HOWEVER: There are caveats. PvP must be primarily skill driven. I should not be running around ripping players apart who are the same level as me as a button mashing novice who doesn’t understand my class or how to play it just because my gear is better than theirs.

But if gear doesn't make a decent difference, what is the point of progressing via gear?

If you are not trying to progress via gear, what is the point of playing?

And don't say "fun". If all a player wants is progression-less fun, then are myriad lobby based or other non-persistent games for them to play. the entire point of a persistent world in terms of gameplay is progression.

So, if there is no progression, why bother?

It's having the gear difference too high between players, no one said there won't be any gear difference! I would say new world gear differences is actually a healthy amount for all its flaws. When PvPing you don't feel you lost combat just because of gear differences.

Noaani

truely wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Barrakus wrote: »

HOWEVER: There are caveats. PvP must be primarily skill driven. I should not be running around ripping players apart who are the same level as me as a button mashing novice who doesn’t understand my class or how to play it just because my gear is better than theirs.

But if gear doesn't make a decent difference, what is the point of progressing via gear?

If you are not trying to progress via gear, what is the point of playing?

And don't say "fun". If all a player wants is progression-less fun, then are myriad lobby based or other non-persistent games for them to play. the entire point of a persistent world in terms of gameplay is progression.

So, if there is no progression, why bother?

It's having the gear difference too high between players, no one said there won't be any gear difference! I would say new world gear differences is actually a healthy amount for all its flaws. When PvPing you don't feel you lost combat just because of gear differences.

If you don't feel as if you lost because of gear, you don't feel as if you won because of gear.

Again, progression in an MMO is supposed to be at the forefront of the entire game. People come back to a persistent world to progress - people play lobby games to just compete against other players.

The entire notion of a persistent game in which character progression is muted is self defeating.

JustVine

The point of an open world mmo is immersion and your actions having an impact on the wider world and your neighbors. Lobby and instanced games do not offer this. Progression is a seperate part of the puzzle entirely.

Noaani

JustVine wrote: »

The point of an open world mmo is immersion and your actions having an impact on the wider world and your neighbors. Lobby and instanced games do not offer this. Progression is a seperate part of the puzzle entirely.

Well that is one of the biggest loads of crap I've read from you. It is purely arguing for the sake of arguing, without even making any sense.

Since an open world is defined as any game world in which the player can go where they please, rather than being on a rail, all MMO's that I have ever played are open world. I'd be interested to hear if you can point to one that isn't.

Perhaps you are getting confused with the concept of a sandbox game, rather than an open world game. Your comment makes sense as a point to argue if you made this mistake, but is still wrong. Archeage is a sandbox MMO, and yet players don't change the world in that game at all.

Really, this comment of yours here is just factually incorrect, and has nothing at all to back it up.

Progression is the core of all MMO's, always has been, and always will be.

People that do not like this should simply play a different genre. Something with a lobby, perhaps.

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