Class fantasy

I really hope this game does well from launch. The one thing I find unsatisfying in current MMOs is that classes are either too restricted (not enough choice) or lack class identity.

So far, with 64 classes to choose from we can't say classes will be restricted and I am glad that IS is going for a Archeage type of class combos. However, my concerns go to class identity. In Archeage, you hardly get a feel for the class.

For example, from the classes to choose from in AoC, would the Falconer play with a Falcon? Do you guys think classes will have that class identity as per their names?

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George_Black

I share your concerns. From what we heared so far be prepared for only 8 arche-classes with distinct identity.

Imagine the rogue/fighter and fighter/rogue, both using dual wield. Now add to the mix the fighter/tank and rogue/tank. And now add the fighter/fighter and rogue/rogue.
From the above 6 combos, only 2 or maybe 3 will be viable for more than roleplay. Only those will have a distinct feel to it.

Take the ranger/ranger class. Now apply all the other combos to this archer-type playstyle. How many do you think will make sense to pick at the end of the day?
One or two.

And everything else X/ranger? Will they be competitive choices?
I doubt it.

Let's wait for further development regarding the classes and then give feedback, hoping that if there is a need for big changes, there will also be time to implement them.
But I share your concerns.

ThornyDevil

I just hope they can give flavour to each class and one way to do it would be to give it some unique skills based on the chosen class.

So for rangers, the soulbow could get a mystic shot ability. The sentinel gets a piercing vision spell *allowing him to detect stealthies*. The scout gets a stealth mechanic, etc.

They did say it will be a rock, paper, scissors type of design so hopefully, most classes would have their usefulness in countering others. Plus, I think if flavourful enough people will end up picking these classes for its fantasy.

Wandering Mist

ThornyDevil wrote: »

I just hope they can give flavour to each class and one way to do it would be to give it some unique skills based on the chosen class.

So for rangers, the soulbow could get a mystic shot ability. The sentinel gets a piercing vision spell *allowing him to detect stealthies*. The scout gets a stealth mechanic, etc.

They did say it will be a rock, paper, scissors type of design so hopefully, most classes would have their usefulness in countering others. Plus, I think if flavourful enough people will end up picking these classes for its fantasy.

I'm afraid this won't happen. The secondary classes don't grant any extra abilities (those only come from the primary archetype). All they do is add augments that change the way some skills work.

For example, a Bowsinger (Ranger/Bard) and a Soulbow (Ranger/Cleric) will have the same basic abilities, but the Bowsinger will get Bard-inspired augments whereas the Soulbow will get Cleric-inspired augments.

Also, the balancing of the classes will be done on a a group scale, not an individual 1v1 scale.

Ironhope

Wandering Mist wrote: »

I'm afraid this won't happen. The secondary classes don't grant any extra abilities (those only come from the primary archetype). All they do is add augments that change the way some skills work.

For example, a Bowsinger (Ranger/Bard) and a Soulbow (Ranger/Cleric) will have the same basic abilities, but the Bowsinger will get Bard-inspired augments whereas the Soulbow will get Cleric-inspired augments.

Also, the balancing of the classes will be done on a a group scale, not an individual 1v1 scale.

Two questions,

So how different will ''classes'' from eachother then? Will they be as different as wow specs are from eachother?

Also, why won't intrepid re-name the ''classes'' to ''specs'' or something more appropriate?

The word ''class'' tends to have a heavy meaning among mmo-rpg gamers (games) and here it's clearly not justified, only leading to a very large number of people being mislead.

Wandering Mist

Ironhope wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

I'm afraid this won't happen. The secondary classes don't grant any extra abilities (those only come from the primary archetype). All they do is add augments that change the way some skills work.

For example, a Bowsinger (Ranger/Bard) and a Soulbow (Ranger/Cleric) will have the same basic abilities, but the Bowsinger will get Bard-inspired augments whereas the Soulbow will get Cleric-inspired augments.

Also, the balancing of the classes will be done on a a group scale, not an individual 1v1 scale.

Two questions,

So how different will ''classes'' from eachother then? Will they be as different as wow specs are from eachother?

Also, why won't intrepid re-name the ''classes'' to ''specs'' or something more appropriate?

The word ''class'' tends to have a heavy meaning among mmo-rpg gamers (games) and here it's clearly not justified, only leading to a very large number of people being mislead.

We don't know for sure how different the classes will be, as we only have a couple of examples of augments so far. We won't know much more than that until all the base archetypes are implemented and the devs start working on the augment system.

As for names, the naming convention comes directly from Steven so it's unlikely to change.

SirChancelot

Wandering Mist wrote: »

ThornyDevil wrote: »

I just hope they can give flavour to each class and one way to do it would be to give it some unique skills based on the chosen class.

So for rangers, the soulbow could get a mystic shot ability. The sentinel gets a piercing vision spell *allowing him to detect stealthies*. The scout gets a stealth mechanic, etc.

They did say it will be a rock, paper, scissors type of design so hopefully, most classes would have their usefulness in countering others. Plus, I think if flavourful enough people will end up picking these classes for its fantasy.

I'm afraid this won't happen. The secondary classes don't grant any extra abilities (those only come from the primary archetype). All they do is add augments that change the way some skills work.

For example, a Bowsinger (Ranger/Bard) and a Soulbow (Ranger/Cleric) will have the same basic abilities, but the Bowsinger will get Bard-inspired augments whereas the Soulbow will get Cleric-inspired augments.

Also, the balancing of the classes will be done on a a group scale, not an individual 1v1 scale.

But we don't know the extent of how the cleric augments will effect the ranger/cleric. Will it be able to change the ability from a direct damage to a heal, letting the soulbow be a healer? Or just add a minor self heal? Or choose death school augments and add a decrepify debuff on hit?

We really don't know the extent of these systems yet...

Talents

Don't take the class names literally, if you do then you'll be disappointed. They've said before that

Jeffrey Bard wrote:

We're not really talking about 64 true classes, we're talking about eight classes with 64 variants... There isn't as much variance between the 64 classes as you might expect. It's not like there are you know 64 different versions of... radically different classes.

Orym

Yup agree with you here.
Class identity is lacking in many newer mmos and i even think that is one of the big 5 reasons why mmos have lost a bit of its charm and character.
But just the fact they are planning to have these 8 archtypes eases my nerves a bit.
Unfortunatly I think you are going to be able to wear whatever armor and weapons you like if im not mistaken.

One game that does class identity extremely well is obviously warhammer online, each class is amazing and are viable plus feel completely different from eachother. I'm such a sucker for warhammer fantasy universe overall but i guess i have to accept that no other games will be exactly like that

I just hope the classes are all going to be good and feel uniqe and not like new world where everyone runs around in heavy armor with 2H axe or whatever the meta setup is for that specific month.

SirChancelot

Talents wrote: »

Don't take the class names literally, if you do then you'll be disappointed. They've said before that

Jeffrey Bard wrote:

We're not really talking about 64 true classes, we're talking about eight classes with 64 variants... There isn't as much variance between the 64 classes as you might expect. It's not like there are you know 64 different versions of... radically different classes.

It doesn't have to be radically different to have very different identity
Look at summoner. A necromancer and beastmaster are both 'summoners' but hopefully have very different asthetics and are easily identifiable from each other.

TrUSivraj

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

Talents wrote: »

Don't take the class names literally, if you do then you'll be disappointed. They've said before that

Jeffrey Bard wrote:

We're not really talking about 64 true classes, we're talking about eight classes with 64 variants... There isn't as much variance between the 64 classes as you might expect. It's not like there are you know 64 different versions of... radically different classes.

It doesn't have to be radically different to have very different identity
Look at summoner. A necromancer and beastmaster are both 'summoners' but hopefully have very different asthetics and are easily identifiable from each other.

Agreed. If we read the wiki, Steven stated that skills CAN potentially be altered into completely different skills, but you'll still have an identity of what the skill once was.

So a falconer(ranger summ) using the augmented flame arrow ( linear field of flame) and turning it into a linear field of thorns that slow and snare is pretty different than a scion (ranger/mage) turning it into a field of frost that slows and freezes OR leaving a tether at max range that the ranger can recast to teleport to, or a soul bow (ranger cleric) turning it into a field of healing over time, with Hawkeye (ranger x2) just making flame arrow stronger by increasing dmg or field size.

EDIT: When it comes to " class reflection " we can look at the simple fact that, say a Tank/ranger (warden) vs a Ranger/tank (sentinel) would have two entirely different primary skills from the start.

So a sentinel turning augmented flame arrow into a grappling /tether shot that leaves targets in a small diameter until they break off by moving in a certain direction for a period of time, will be fundamentally different from a Warden using Augmented "Javelin" to snare a successfully pulled target in place.

Small or fundamentally different changes for each class, yet give them their own identity and purpose. I find that quite acceptable.

Podgnil

8 classes is more then enough, for good rpg enough 5 classes mage, ranger, assasin, fighter and cliric. Main question: can intrpd balance classes and subclasess and make them diferences really important. Because even one different spell can change game play, ure will craft and seek another armor, u will have another role in dungeon, and pvp gamestale. MAIN is balance them and make unique. In balance I mean not equil dps for dd and equil heal for heals, I mean thet every class be usefull in some game aspect and people will not play in same builds, stat caps and equip. For example rogue/rogue is best in instant mele dmg, and can awesome burst the target and rogue/cliric have less instant and tunel damage but have lifesteal. So one will have equip to be glass canon, and second focus on long fights and surviving, some heal perks on equip and etc.

Taleof2Cities

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

But we don't know the extent of how the cleric augments will effect the ranger/cleric. Will it be able to change the ability from a direct damage to a heal, letting the soulbow be a healer? Or just add a minor self heal? Or choose death school augments and add a decrepify debuff on hit?

We really don't know the extent of these systems yet...

Which is why honest and calculated feedback during the beta phase of testing will be super important.

I hope to be an Intrepid Pack member by then and participate myself ...

TrUSivraj

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

ThornyDevil wrote: »

I just hope they can give flavour to each class and one way to do it would be to give it some unique skills based on the chosen class.

So for rangers, the soulbow could get a mystic shot ability. The sentinel gets a piercing vision spell *allowing him to detect stealthies*. The scout gets a stealth mechanic, etc.

They did say it will be a rock, paper, scissors type of design so hopefully, most classes would have their usefulness in countering others. Plus, I think if flavourful enough people will end up picking these classes for its fantasy.

I'm afraid this won't happen. The secondary classes don't grant any extra abilities (those only come from the primary archetype). All they do is add augments that change the way some skills work.

For example, a Bowsinger (Ranger/Bard) and a Soulbow (Ranger/Cleric) will have the same basic abilities, but the Bowsinger will get Bard-inspired augments whereas the Soulbow will get Cleric-inspired augments.

Also, the balancing of the classes will be done on a a group scale, not an individual 1v1 scale.

But we don't know the extent of how the cleric augments will effect the ranger/cleric. Will it be able to change the ability from a direct damage to a heal, letting the soulbow be a healer? Or just add a minor self heal? Or choose death school augments and add a decrepify debuff on hit?

We really don't know the extent of these systems yet...

We have a decent understanding that sub cleric classes can heal, but never to the extent of replacing the healer primary archetype. You should absolutely expect some skills to do dmg and heal at the same time, just not to an extreme extent.

bloodprophet

Podgnil wrote: »

8 classes is more then enough, for good rpg enough 5 classes mage, ranger, assasin, fighter and cliric. Main question: can intrpd balance classes and subclasess and make them diferences really important. Because even one different spell can change game play, ure will craft and seek another armor, u will have another role in dungeon, and pvp gamestale. MAIN is balance them and make unique. In balance I mean not equil dps for dd and equil heal for heals, I mean thet every class be usefull in some game aspect and people will not play in same builds, stat caps and equip. For example rogue/rogue is best in instant mele dmg, and can awesome burst the target and rogue/cliric have less instant and tunel damage but have lifesteal. So one will have equip to be glass canon, and second focus on long fights and surviving, some heal perks on equip and etc.

Your primary archetype will set your role. Tank will tank and Cleric will heal.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Roles
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Archetypes

TrUSivraj

bloodprophet wrote: »

Podgnil wrote: »

8 classes is more then enough, for good rpg enough 5 classes mage, ranger, assasin, fighter and cliric. Main question: can intrpd balance classes and subclasess and make them diferences really important. Because even one different spell can change game play, ure will craft and seek another armor, u will have another role in dungeon, and pvp gamestale. MAIN is balance them and make unique. In balance I mean not equil dps for dd and equil heal for heals, I mean thet every class be usefull in some game aspect and people will not play in same builds, stat caps and equip. For example rogue/rogue is best in instant mele dmg, and can awesome burst the target and rogue/cliric have less instant and tunel damage but have lifesteal. So one will have equip to be glass canon, and second focus on long fights and surviving, some heal perks on equip and etc.

Your primary archetype will set your role. Tank will tank and Cleric will heal.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Roles
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Archetypes

You should expect some subclass comboes to be far worse in PvE/PvP than others. If you have a healer in a party of 5, do you need to be healing yourself or could you have more dmg or more cc, or maybe you're fighting a big boss and you can't cc it, so you may as well have more dmg while being able to heal yourself while your cleric is busy. The perk in this game, is that you'll have different schools for each of your augments, so maybe you won't have to change spec, but simply change what your Augment is currently doing.

TrUSivraj

My recent msg was for you woops.

TrUSivraj

Podgnil wrote: »

8 classes is more then enough, for good rpg enough 5 classes mage, ranger, assasin, fighter and cliric. Main question: can intrpd balance classes and subclasess and make them diferences really important. Because even one different spell can change game play, ure will craft and seek another armor, u will have another role in dungeon, and pvp gamestale. MAIN is balance them and make unique. In balance I mean not equil dps for dd and equil heal for heals, I mean thet every class be usefull in some game aspect and people will not play in same builds, stat caps and equip. For example rogue/rogue is best in instant mele dmg, and can awesome burst the target and rogue/cliric have less instant and tunel damage but have lifesteal. So one will have equip to be glass canon, and second focus on long fights and surviving, some heal perks on equip and etc.

Messed up twice lol. My subclass response was towards you xD

SirChancelot

bloodprophet wrote: »

Podgnil wrote: »

8 classes is more then enough, for good rpg enough 5 classes mage, ranger, assasin, fighter and cliric. Main question: can intrpd balance classes and subclasess and make them diferences really important. Because even one different spell can change game play, ure will craft and seek another armor, u will have another role in dungeon, and pvp gamestale. MAIN is balance them and make unique. In balance I mean not equil dps for dd and equil heal for heals, I mean thet every class be usefull in some game aspect and people will not play in same builds, stat caps and equip. For example rogue/rogue is best in instant mele dmg, and can awesome burst the target and rogue/cliric have less instant and tunel damage but have lifesteal. So one will have equip to be glass canon, and second focus on long fights and surviving, some heal perks on equip and etc.

Your primary archetype will set your role. Tank will tank and Cleric will heal.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Roles
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Archetypes

I keep asking whether that is true or not for the live streams and haven't gotten an answer yet

Also:
Although traditional roles are present, players should not feel branded by their primary archetype.[2][4]

I'm still going to stand by I hope what you say isn't the case, huge missed opportunity if it is....

bloodprophet

Why?
Choices should matter and letting everyone do everything means nothing matters.

SirChancelot

bloodprophet wrote: »

Why?
Choices should matter and letting everyone do everything means nothing matters.

I didn't say everyone do everything. And just because I have a fighter/tank doesn't mean he can instantly tank now. You still have to have the gear, augments, and skill points set to be a tank.

I'm not advocating the WoW/FFXIV style of click a button and swap your role. What I hope to see is some fluidity in primary archtypes so they are capable of building towards different roles. So not EVERY party needs a tank, a cleric, and then 6 whatever. Having a summoner/cleric geared for and built to be a healer instead of a DPS being capable of filling that role.

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