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Primary vs Secondary Archetypes

I'll keep this very short and concise. Aside from participating in the Alpha 2 or Betas, what do you think the best method of selecting a Primary (and thus secondary) Archetype will be based on PLAYSTYLE? For instance, if I am trying to replicate the feeling of a Retribution Paladin from World of Warcraft, am I best going with a Fighter Primary with a Cleric secondary? Should I be rolling Cleric primary with a Fighter secondary? What if I want to closely resemble a WoW Death Knight? Is that Fighter Primary with a Mage Secondary?

Essentially, I intend to participate in the Alpha 2 and Betas, but aside from leveling each and every primary to a high enough level to test the secondary (thus creating a class), how do we know we like the playstyle enough? I'd LOVE to have the ability in the Betas (when stuff is more fleshed out and only polish is needed) to roll MANY characters and test as many of the 64 classes as possible to see what I like prior to launch. Thoughts?

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    tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I most enjoy playing a character with aspects of my real life personality. For example, someone who has a hobby of working with wood making beautiful furniture might like to be a crafter. A physician might like playing a healer. A football lineman would be attracted to being a tank.
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    mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited February 2022
    Watch youtube videos from other people who played Alpha 2 and betas.

    I'm not against a test the class feature.

    I think that once we play the game and understand how the augments affect the different classes, this will be easier to figure out. Right now we have an idea of how it works but don't understand the full extent of how they change abilities.

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    NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I'll keep this very short and concise. Aside from participating in the Alpha 2 or Betas, what do you think the best method of selecting a Primary (and thus secondary) Archetype will be based on PLAYSTYLE?

    I think you pretty much covered it :smile: Only other way is to have a friend or a streamer who likes the same playstyle as you and have them play it while you watch.
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    Watch youtube videos from other people who played Alpha 2 and betas.

    I'm not against a test the class feature.

    I think that once we play the game and understand how the augments affect the different classes, this will be easier to figure out. Right now we have an idea of how it works but don't understand the full extent of how they change abilities.

    I agree. I essentially think it's "too early" as the classes are still begin developed but I'm hoping I can glean this information from Alpha 2s or Betas in order to be fully informed come launch. I want to know what the class I hope to put 10k hours into will feel like prior to leveling the character to that level to reach Class status.
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    TalentsTalents Member, Intrepid Pack
    I mean, how did you find out what classes you liked in other games? Most other MMOs don't have a "test class" function before making your character.
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    VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
    edited February 2022
    This will really come down to the augments you choose for your class. The archetypes abilities remain largely the same. So, Cleric will have Cleric abilities and Fighter will have Fighter abilities. However, how you augment those abilities will change the flavor and feel of the class.

    (Side note; Paladin is one of the 64 classes ;).)

    Let's say you combine Primary: Fighter with Secondary: Cleric. That gives you a Highsword. This is virtually just a combination of both archetypes. However, if you scroll down you can read the section about Cleric augments. You'll notice that "Classes with Cleric as a secondary archetype are able to choose between life or death augments."

    So, depending on how you augment your class you can start to choose the fantasy you're wanting to achieve.

    You can read more about classes here
    More on Augments here :)
    Here is a video of Steven briefly discussing what classes vs archetypes mean! ^_^


    A trial of Classes (combination of two Archetypes) is not something we have shared much information on. Currently, we'd like players to explore the various Archetype combinations through gameplay.
    Since you'd like to see a trial system:
    • What are some features you think would be important for a system like this?
    • Have you seen other games do it well, which ones did you like the most and why?
    • Do you think there are any cons to a system like this?
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    I agree. I essentially think it's "too early" as the classes are still begin developed but I'm hoping I can glean this information from Alpha 2s or Betas in order to be fully informed come launch. I want to know what the class I hope to put 10k hours into will feel like prior to leveling the character to that level to reach Class status.

    I doubt Intrepid will have any objections to you rolling multiple characters during Alpha-2 and Beta, @GraphicalElm. They'll take as much testing feedback as you'll give them.

    All that said, remember Alpha-2 and Beta testing is not "just playing the game".

    You'll have to do your part in submitting regular and candid feedback ... especially when the devs call for functional area and spot testing.
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    We can always go with the Ultima VI model of choosing an archetype based on a survey of your personal values.

    How virtuous are you? ;)
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
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    AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    CROW3 wrote: »
    We can always go with the Ultima VI model of choosing an archetype based on a survey of your personal values.
    With my luck I'll end up as a Shepherd. :/

    BAAAA!
     
    Hhak63P.png
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    Talents wrote: »
    I mean, how did you find out what classes you liked in other games? Most other MMOs don't have a "test class" function before making your character.

    Good point/question. I guess a major part of it was you could see how those spaces would play out via talent trees and such. I was curious about this as I’m sure as we approach Alpha 2 and beta and the classes are actually fleshed out (there’s maybe 10% completion and information on the wiki regarding the 64 classes) the. We can use these as references. But nothing beats trying live in game. So I hope I can dabble in each of the 64 during Beta.

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    All that said, remember Alpha-2 and Beta testing is not "just playing the game".

    You'll have to do your part in submitting regular and candid feedback ... especially when the devs call for functional area and spot testing.

    Totally. My hope, in this aspect, would be to give feedback on this small aspect of the classes
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    Vaknar wrote: »
    Since you'd like to see a trial system:
    • What are some features you think would be important for a system like this?
    • Have you seen other games do it well, which ones did you like the most and why?
    • Do you think there are any cons to a system like this?

    I think the weapon trial (tutorial?) system in Monster Hunters series did it pretty well.

    In MH different weapon essentially plays like a different class. And in every MH game there's usually an NPC you can talk to, then he ports you to an arena, puts you in standard starting gear for that weapon class, and pits you against a just-right-difficulty monster, and gives you advice as you fight it.

    The one in Monster Hunter World's probably a good reference point.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    My expectation is that during Alpha 2, and possibly Beta 1, we will have days where we are dev-boosted to Level 35 or more so that we can play around with Augments and the Class system.

    Could be that Racial, Religious and Social Org Augments will help you build the "Paladin" you want to play, even if you don't choose the official Paladin class (Tank/Cleric).
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    JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Since you'd like to see a trial system:
    • What are some features you think would be important for a system like this?
    • Have you seen other games do it well, which ones did you like the most and why?
    • Do you think there are any cons to a system like this?

    I think the weapon trial (tutorial?) system in Monster Hunters series did it pretty well.

    In MH different weapon essentially plays like a different class. And in every MH game there's usually an NPC you can talk to, then he ports you to an arena, puts you in standard starting gear for that weapon class, and pits you against a just-right-difficulty monster, and gives you advice as you fight it.

    The one in Monster Hunter World's probably a good reference point.

    Skyforge did it the best I've seen minus not using mobs to a full extent. You literally had a tutorial simulation you could try max level skills and abilities for different classes. Any serious PvP mmo should have something like it, and accessible after leveling. I'm not sold on Ashes being that though just yet.
    Riding in Solo Bad Guy's side car

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
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    I think it would be cool to have a test range for archetypes the same way Insurgency has a test range for weapons.

    Just have a defined zone where I get all skills for an archetype up to level 20 or 30, just high enough to get a sense for the class combat. Then I can switch between classes and weapons. Once I’m good, I can leave the zone and make my choice.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
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    Atama wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    We can always go with the Ultima VI model of choosing an archetype based on a survey of your personal values.
    With my luck I'll end up as a Shepherd. :/

    BAAAA!

    You'd be a Trickster, fooling people with your unrivalled wordplay.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
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    Vaknar wrote: »
    A trial of Classes (combination of two Archetypes) is not something we have shared much information on. Currently, we'd like players to explore the various Archetype combinations through gameplay.
    Since you'd like to see a trial system:
    • What are some features you think would be important for a system like this?
    • Have you seen other games do it well, which ones did you like the most and why?
    • Do you think there are any cons to a system like this?

    [*]What are some features you think would be important for a system like this?

    I'd echo the idea of having some sort of "test" environment you can go to just to play around with abilities. It doesn't have to be all of them, and it doesn't have to be with all the augments, but perhaps just a flavour of what to expect from the get go, but leaving some room for discovery down the line.

    [*]Have you seen other games do it well, which ones did you like the most and why?

    My only experience with a trial system is honestly with Lost Ark recently, and it was okay actually. Picking your class is a huge experience and while their game is very alt friendly i.e. encourages multiple classes to be played, they give you a chance to test out abilities at their base level against some enemies.

    [*]Do you think there are any cons to a system like this?

    To mirror some other sentiments, I didn't really feel a problem with NOT having a class trial system in games like WoW. You would learn by playing, playing AGAINST, or researching about it. So I think the biggest problem with a trial system would be taking away that feeling of discovery you get from discovering things for the first time through first hand experience in the world. That said, I don't think I would have an issue with it existing, you could design it in a way where it doesn't take from the immersion. But I wouldn't have an issue with it not existing either.

    Truthfully, it might even be enough to forgo the trial and just have a class trainer of sorts which gives a little introduction to what to expect if you specialise in their school for a secondary Augment. For example: You hit level 10! You can now select a secondary archetype. Please speak with the 8 class trainers (optional) - and select which school you would like to specialise in for your secondary archetype (required). You can then go to the relevant class halls and when speaking with the trainer, we could have UI elements which just show the ability, how the augment will change it, perhaps show the animation change (or not?) - that might be fine.

    You could do this exact same thing and incorporate the trial, throwing you into an instanced space to play around. I would be happy with either but i'm just spit-balling ideas.

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    A trial of Classes (combination of two Archetypes) is not something we have shared much information on. Currently, we'd like players to explore the various Archetype combinations through gameplay.
    Since you'd like to see a trial system:
    • What are some features you think would be important for a system like this?
    • Have you seen other games do it well, which ones did you like the most and why?
    • Do you think there are any cons to a system like this?
    [/quote]

    I actually fully appreciate that mentality of wanting people to explore the Classes via gameplay. I think at launch, this should definitely be the approach.

    For Beta testing, I'm sure you guys will allow us to "jump" to level 25 to be able to thoroughly test out each of the 64 classes to give input and find bugs/imbalances/gimmicks.

    1. For this system I'd like to be able to toggle between the 64 classes to test each with various augments. When the augments classes give are fully fleshed out and are KNOWN, this feature becomes less necessary as you can visually see how a secondary Archetype will augment the features of your primary Archetype. At present, when the classes are presumably still in flux, it is hard to visualize how a Spellsword will play compared to a Highsword, etc.
    2. WoW implemented a class trial system late in their lifecycle for players who were newer to the game. It allowed you to play with the kit a bit, but not too much. It was adequate.
    3. I don't believe this should be included at launch as presumably by then all of the augments will be well known so "Classes" will be easier to visualize. Presently it is all theory crafting.
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    Dygz wrote: »
    My expectation is that during Alpha 2, and possibly Beta 1, we will have days where we are dev-boosted to Level 35 or more so that we can play around with Augments and the Class system.

    Could be that Racial, Religious and Social Org Augments will help you build the "Paladin" you want to play, even if you don't choose the official Paladin class (Tank/Cleric).

    I have to imagine the dev boost will give me the "trial period" I am hoping for.
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    tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I would prefer not having any type of 'trial' at all, beyond A2 and B1 B2. Why?

    Just like the players have to discover the mechanics of breeding, I think that we should have to discover the mechanics of each of the 64 options. Well, far more than 64 when we consider all the armor/weapon/augments/skill choice/etc. combos there will be. Certainly, there will be THOUSANDS of different combos.

    So, any trial would turn out to be inadequate because there are so many potential combos that only the most patient player will identify most of them, much less give most of them a thorough trial. Much less keep careful records of the trials. Much less share their results in a cohesive way to the general player base.

    But the real reason that I do not want 'trials' is selfish. I want to be able to figure out one of these thousands of combos that gives me a significant advantage and let that remain my secret.
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