Removing the xp bar

I think how AoC plans to have good content for all levels and not emphasize 'end game' is great but how counter-intuitive that is for MMOs at this point. I think most players will naturally struggle with this and their daily login goal will be to accrue as much xp as possible before logging out. I think one way to resolve this would be to just remove the xp bar. When you don't know the numerical values of xp gain from mobs, crafting, quests, dungeons etc you are less likely to be bogged down with optimizing and can focus on what you like without FOMO. Quest completion could provide some audio+visual feedback that could scale with the amount of xp you earn to make you feel the weight of a particularly important and rewarding quest. Otherwise, when fighting mobs for a quest or grinding, you gauge based on how difficult or easy it is if this is giving you good or mediocre xp for your level.

On the flip side, I actually was struggling to come up with reasons why removing the xp bar would be bad/detrimental to play. The only real reason I came up with (outside of being annoyed it isn't there if you expected it) is if you had to plan your level up with visiting some NPC for gaining your new skills (I don't even know if this is the case). Without fast travel, I'd be annoyed if I was a hair away from leveling without knowing it just to travel super far from the NPC I was right beside that would give me my new skills/augments. This can have easy solutions though, like if you visit your class trainer NPC (if there is such a thing) and talking to them would give you some idea 'you are still quite a ways away' (<50%) vs 'you're halfway there!' (~50%) vs 'you are close' (~25%) vs 'just a bit more' (<10%).

I wonder what other people think, would this enhance gameplay with AoC's goals in mind? Would it be annoying?

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Songcaller

I love the idea behind no xp bars. Fir a second I dreaded the crafting grind, however, I guess you could have other ways to determine investment needed without falling into a black hole of despair.

I think the rush of a sudden ding would be awesome. I would hope xp gain would still be given per activity because I like to plan kills etc.

Veeshan

Neurath wrote: »

I love the idea behind no xp bars. Fir a second I dreaded the crafting grind, however, I guess you could have other ways to determine investment needed without falling into a black hole of despair.

I think the rush of a sudden ding would be awesome. I would hope xp gain would still be given per activity because I like to plan kills etc.

WTB the old Everquest DIng noise on leveling :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P1SQYWChIM&ab_channel=SothisSpielwiese

McShave

A similar idea I like to your OP is the idea of not relying on character level for everything, instead having many different systems to level (like OSRS, but not as many things to level). I don't like the idea of locking combat abilities, armor, weapons, dungeons, etc behind an arbitrary number like a character level, especially when there are many ways to level up your character. Like what if you gathered to level 50 (unrealistic, but for example), and then you walked into an end-game raid having never fought a monster before.

It makes sense to me that the more you do a specific thing, the better you get at it. Similar to older WoW with their weapon skill. You had to use a weapon a bit before you were good at it. In practicalities, it was not a fun gameplay system since it arbitrarily made you bad at a weapon that might have been an upgrade for you, but I like the idea that you had to use something before you were good with it.

Like, what if instead of saying you must be level XX to wear this certain plate armour, you had to have a strength of XX to wear it, since plate is heavier and more cumbersome than mail or leather and it makes sense that you would need to be a stronger person to use it.

You can still have a character level, maybe an accumulation of all the different leveling aspects of a character, but you wouldnt have new skills when you level up your character level, but you would get new abilities when you level up your combat level.

Shoelid

The biggest downside to removing the XP bar is that watching it go up feels good. Seeing the big jump in progress after a difficult quest has always been the most satisfying part for me.

Basically, the core of the RPG genre is that "number goes up" feels good, and the XP bar is one of those numbers.

George_Black

Or or.... people that dont have time for such an mmo, can come to terms with it?

CROW3

I think @McShave & I are in the same boat, though I may take it to a greater extreme. I feel like player levels are the vestigial tail of PnP. Had I my druthers I'd eliminate levels entirely and push toward a skill based system similar to UO. We have systems that can handle many more sophisticated ways to quantify and normalize player character (not necessarily twitch) skills to create a character growth experience without micromanaging bar progression.

insomnia

I don't like the idea of not having the xp information, about how much i get from x thing. If i grinded something, i would like to know how much i would need to progress. Take crafting f.x. I would like to know how many of x item i would need to level. I don't grind mobs to level. But there are people that does it. You would want to know if it was worth your time and/or how many you would need to kill

Happymeal2415

I like the idea of no xp bar. I'd extend that to health bars as well. I enjoyed in lost ark having no indication of where the boss was at until we died or the boss did.

George_Black

Good... keep attacking the same mob not knowing if it's a good grind or not.
I begin to think that some people dont know how mmos are played. Anyway, this topic wont get any dev attention.
"Remove xp bar cause my feelings"

CROW3

George_Black wrote: »

Good... keep attacking the same mob not knowing if it's a good grind or not.
I begin to think that some people dont know how mmos are played. Anyway, this topic wont get any dev attention.
"Remove xp bar cause my feelings"

hm... I find your projection ironic. If you're unable to tolerate a discussion about disrupting the status quo because of your feelings, that's fine. I'd rather entertain the irrational to help move the needle in a new direction instead of assuming that 'grandma knows best' and accepting what was as what should be just because.

So a more productive question would be 'What are other ways (even totally irrational ways) to provide players a sense of progress and accomplishment for their character without a % progress bar?'

Dygz

Yeah - I don't know that it has to be a XP progress bar...
I much prefer the NW compass over a mini-map...
But, I definitely want some form of gauge of xp progress that will help me determine the length of a play session.

Caww

Give players the UI option to hide the XP bar but let other players have the familiarity of the usual setup.

tautau

The idea of untying the progress of various skills from xp/level is an interesting one. Perhaps learning new spells, for example, could be tied to use of current related spells instead. Crafting ability related to crafting usage, cooking to cooking, stealth to use of stealth, and so on.

Leave something tied to xp, perhaps new weapon usage and armor, too. But just because someone is level 50 shouldn't make them good at horseback riding if they have never ridden before or good at growing corn and 'taters if they have never worked on a farm.

Vaknar

Interesting discussion so far, everyone! ^_^

What are some creative ways you can think of to reimagine the XP bar?

Whisky

Caww wrote: »

Give players the UI option to hide the XP bar but let other players have the familiarity of the usual setup.

This. Give options, no need to lock into one way or another. You don't like XP bars? cool, turn it off.

JamesSunderland

Caww wrote: »

Give players the UI option to hide the XP bar but let other players have the familiarity of the usual setup.

The most reasonable choice. UI customization freedom is king.

JustVine

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to Alpha 2 where 'whether or not they have skilled enough coders to deliver on the ui customization that would result in a lot of solved problems like this' will be clearer. However it is a very specific skill and such customization does cost resources both to create and to run on the client side. Good coding is really going to make or break the ux experience for a game that has this many problems to solve.

Gizban

I feel this notion falls into the same category as 'please remove classes', which has led to McClassless crap MMOs where every 'non-class' special snowflake character does everything.
It follows a siren song of 'limitless freedom and personal expression' but falls to shallow gameplay and dumbed down yet polished tropes.
Some think by removing supposed "restrictions" you are guaranteed a better experience, well you're not.
Finding the way forward within limits is what makes one stretch the imagination and allows you to find pleasure in excellence, a job well done, trials be damned.

I know from experience that sometimes your satisfaction from a play session is not playing so much as feeling you've moved forward in the game.

Your character has progressed, grown slightly more powerful, and that slight power boost is going to move you closer to exploring the world more, kicking that mob's ass that wrecked you on the way to the other town, and so forth.
MMOs are like a classic Hero quest story. From weak to strong, with all the trials in between.
The XP bar is a definitive marker of your progression towards Hero.
Leave my XP bar alone!

I appreciate Steven's new ideals, such as nodes. I feel they will foster player ownership of the game and foster longterm players. But the primary reason I am here is because AoC is at heart a CLASSIC MMORPG!

Lets drop classes and be freeflowing and kool
Lets drop mobs because swords aren't constructive
Lets drop xp bar because.... "less likely to be bogged down with optimizing"

What does THAT mean? 'bogged down' by developing my character?! This is an RPG, THAT ITS PURPOSE!

BlackBrony

pyreal wrote: »

Lets drop classes and be freeflowing and kool

It's funny. Because why then limit the number of professions? It's a mmo after all. If you have the time, shouldn't you be able to master all classes? That is a design choice Steven made.
The fact that you have no levels, doesn't mean you get all skills.
Example: You can only have X amount of skills at the highest level, so if you want to be a tank, maybe you will have Mace+Shield+Resistance, after being hit a lot by many mobs. Maybe your physical resistance is high because you always grind physical mobs.
The archetypes might be end up being the same, but you could have an Archer that on purpose got hit a lot, and now it has a lot of physical resistance, maybe to counterattack assasins.

So, there you go. Now you have a whole new system where you're free to do what you want, but there are restrictions.
The XP bar is not a necessity, unless, of course, you want the most efficient route to level. And that's the idea behind, isn't? I MUST KNOW the fastest way to level. Might as well look at the source code and find out all the most efficient ways.
Imagine having skills instead of levels, now there's no fastest way to max level.

Caww

Vaknar wrote: »

Interesting discussion so far, everyone! ^_^

What are some creative ways you can think of to reimagine the XP bar?

So, the question above implies that there is some sort of XP bar but how can it be approached with a twist to add something special but practical to game play.

There could of course be Multiple XP bars; one for mob xp, one for quest xp, one for pvp xp, one for crafting xp, one for node development xp, etc. and their combined effect would determine your increase in leveling (which is what already happens in games, just without the granularity). This matrix of xp could have "trip points" where each xp category would, as an example, increase the amount of xp gained with that activity or just trigger a certain jump in the overall level bar. Having multiple triggers and other benefits along the way would probably encourage players to at least try a little of each xp category to get the bumps along the path to 50/60.

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