gear progression.

From what I have heard and correct me if I'm wrong but gear is going to be more of the traditional vertical progression in ashes but just with a kind of soft cap where progressing gear past that point is kinda meh and not really needed but more of a humble brag type idea. Personally I feel that this wouldnt be the best idea in light of another system that a different game currently. This game is of course ESO where while I would say its gear system doesnt shine in that game, I would argue its cause the combat at its core is flawed for a mmo in that game as the game is build around the idea that you should be able to do almost everything solo to the point that people make 'invinicible builds' of all types to complete the hardest veteran content like it was nothing. The point is that the way that ESO does their gear progression is entirly horizontal as once gear reaches legendary and has max enchants placed on it than there isnt antyhing you can do to increase it further with the few options that do exist are either cp point passives for more armor or things like traits like infused that boost the enchants however at the cost that you can only have 11 infused traits maxed. This idea at its core without anything else would be bad but eso manages to make it very intresting which is set bonus's that boost your stats in certain ways and can even full blown give you massive new effects at a full set completetion that can REALLY change the way you play.

Personally i feel a system like this would work very well in ashes especially in light of the more special types of gear called monster sets and more importantly, mythics. monster helms are 2 piece sets that only have, well, 2 pieces in each set as you would expect and come often with set effects that MASSIVELY change how you play if you have the full on and mythics not just changing how you play but alterting how the core mechanics of the game apply to you like the snow treaders making you immune to immobilizations and snares but at the cost of being able to sprint and sets like the gaze of sithis or the soon to release oakenshield or the shield dodge ring that all 3 full blown disable a system of the game for you while giving you massive benefits with the shield dodge ring being the most intresting that doesnt just boost your stats massively like the oakenshield ring and gaze of sithis but full blown changing the way you dodge from actually dodging to producing a really damn big 20k dmg shield at base that last for 1 second and appears whenever you dodge.

At the end of the day im sure no matter what intrepid decides to do on this front, they will make it great but i feel that at least with the resources you get to make gear from things like end game world bosses like dragons at least could be used to replicate at least the monster helm set and or mythic system from eso of getting to wear legendary gear made from truly mythic materials and providing awe inspired changes to how you interact with the world around you to help give those who choose to really interact with the endgame something to try hard to make and fight for and especially give us ways to take on challenges with it could be really cool if certain mythics are great for certain areas but not others like how the harpooner's wading kilt for example is great if your playing in a group but not if your going to be playing solo as in a group you can avoid taking any damage and get the full buff without issue as the tank takes it all for you but if your solo than its almost as if you just took off a piece of armor with how worthless it would be with if ashes has mythics like this than it could be cool of what sort of stats open up depending on what mythics your raid group has or doesnt have and could alllow for RIDICULUS challenges for the hardcore guilds to have to do that requires you having put in enough time and research to get the right mythics to be able to take on the challenge that your guild wants to take on.

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Dygz

Ashes has gear sets. Yes.
Legendary gear is intended to be rare enough that it's highly unlikely for one character to have a full set of Legendary gear.
One character most likely will only have one Legendary item. Getting a full set of Legendary armor is nigh impossible.

HumblePuffin

Vvess wrote: »

*snip*mat limitations due to different node development*

I call needing to raze the new node and rebuild up the old node that has your rare mats, or protecting your current node that has those rare mats you want incentive to partake in node sieges or to participate in node defense.

If you are able to get the mats you want from both node A and node B, but you like node type A better you lose some incentive to build up node B.

I do get your perspective on it though, and they will definitely need to balance out how important those ultra rare mats are within the gear ecosystem.

Rookk

HumblePuffin wrote: »

Vvess wrote: »

*snip*mat limitations due to different node development*

I call needing to raze the new node and rebuild up the old node that has your rare mats, or protecting your current node that has those rare mats you want incentive to partake in node sieges or to participate in node defense.

If you are able to get the mats you want from both node A and node B, but you like node type A better you lose some incentive to build up node B.

I do get your perspective on it though, and they will definitely need to balance out how important those ultra rare mats are within the gear ecosystem.

correct me if im wrong but it sounds like you are saying that you think that the stuff to repair the item should be everything it took to make it meaning if you dont have access to that specific boss fight than you cant repair right? like im all for specific material drops only coming from specfic dungeons and raid/ world bosses and i think thats all thats needed to make certain guilds wanna push to keep node A up hardcore so they can make sure all their guildies get the item and than there would also be plenty of guildies who have no lifed all the major places and want node B up so they can get the specific materials to make the itmes. no need to make the repair materials drop from specific dungeons since that just means that gear will have way to limited a lifespan to really get a lot of use out of it or rely on it in any fashion.

HumblePuffin

I’m speaking in general that things like needing the specific claw from the dragon of flame to rebuild the blade of your epic level sword once it’s degraded adds more layers of incentive to participate in the node game play loops, and that they need things like this to contribute to the world not stagnating once the bulk of the player base has reached max level and got the gear they wanted.

This also helps to keep varying levels of crafting gear important as well other than just for deconstruction mats. Maybe the sword you make with that claw of the dragon of flame is your BiS epic sword, But it requires more maintenance to upkeep since you need that claw. Even though it’s BiS the next sword down might work fine too so you it creates a choice from the player; “do I bother farming this sword that will require some more specialized maintenance, or invest in this other one that generally gets me to that level but won’t be BiS”.

My overarching point is this game wants a player driven world and economy, and in order to keep that flowing for years to come there needs to be less permanence with player choice regarding “how important is this specific thing to me?; would I die for it to protect a node that may or not be my home?; would I die for it to tear down this other node?”.

Many games let you have everything all the time with no consequence, but I would argue that it’s not just having that thing that gives it meaning, but all the things you give up that make having/doing that thing more special.

Dygz

It's not necessarily about all guildies getting an item.

There are many reasons to keep your Node at the Metro Stage if you can. And also to keep other Nodes you like at the City Stage.
Everbody won't get everything. But, yes, if you need specific resources for a specific item - sometimes those resources may become unavailable.
Ashes has a dynamic world, rather than a static world. The availability of items and resources ebbs and flows as Nodes fall and rise.

Way too limited lifespan and not a lot of time are both subjective.

Rookk

HumblePuffin wrote: »

I’m speaking in general that things like needing the specific claw from the dragon of flame to rebuild the blade of your epic level sword once it’s degraded adds more layers of incentive to participate in the node game play loops, and that they need things like this to contribute to the world not stagnating once the bulk of the player base has reached max level and got the gear they wanted.

This also helps to keep varying levels of crafting gear important as well other than just for deconstruction mats. Maybe the sword you make with that claw of the dragon of flame is your BiS epic sword, But it requires more maintenance to upkeep since you need that claw. Even though it’s BiS the next sword down might work fine too so you it creates a choice from the player; “do I bother farming this sword that will require some more specialized maintenance, or invest in this other one that generally gets me to that level but won’t be BiS”.

My overarching point is this game wants a player driven world and economy, and in order to keep that flowing for years to come there needs to be less permanence with player choice regarding “how important is this specific thing to me?; would I die for it to protect a node that may or not be my home?; would I die for it to tear down this other node?”.

Many games let you have everything all the time with no consequence, but I would argue that it’s not just having that thing that gives it meaning, but all the things you give up that make having/doing that thing more special.

ok i do see the appeal of what your saying in that it would be good for forcing a ever changing meta purely based on what resources are and arent avalible and would make raid gear in general something you dont wear around for the lolz which could actually help balance some pvp around what i guess could be called this games version of overworld sets and honestly in that mindset i dont know if i actually would oppose that as it would make raid gear feel even more important to not lose and to use well and thinking about things like relequins omniprescence in basically ALL dps endgame builds as one example of permanently repairible gear in ESO it does kinda help to force the meta and the idea of building around normal sets and doesnt overshine their importance with general and just really op raid sets and it makes raid sets feel like items you ONLY wanna use during things like sieges of guild castles or nodes as well as raids and ok now im getting what your laying down. i will hold my judgement on deeming which is better now rather than saying making raid gear always repairible even if limited to getting it in the first place from certain nodes for later although i feel that idea still offers that same feeling as seeing a guy running around in a set of raid gear from a node that was only avalible 2 years ago would still be a seen to be seen and once the nodes change, since it takes a long time to change them it would mean that that set would only be avalible again in probably at least several months if not a few years meaning the meta would still be changing but people would have access to raid gear from everywhere.

basically this word wall of a poorly written comment boils down to the thought that i see the appeal and even could be presuaded that limited time raid gear could be cool but also still see the appeal i had for my idea of raid gears repairibility and that instead of deciding which i feel is better before even seeing either in action imma just wait for seeing what things shake out to being when the games alpha 2 and eventual beta 1 come out to being like.

George_Black

I like how people are against expansions, the nice new map additions they bring, the new rbs and enemies, lore, lv cap increase, few new skills etc etc, because they say makes older gear -and "their progress"- redundant, yet the concept of doing the same loop to repair the same old lv50 sword is appealing to them.

Is this also part of the much loved vertical progression? Is this meaningful gameplay to you? Not adding content in order to repeat the same content for years to come?

Tragnar

the thing is to have the same content that is fresh with each playthrough - kinda like roguelikes

Noaani

George_Black wrote: »

I like how people are against expansions, the nice new map additions they bring, the new rbs and enemies, lore, lv cap increase, few new skills etc etc, because they say makes older gear -and "their progress"- redundant, yet the concept of doing the same loop to repair the same old lv50 sword is appealing to them.

Is this also part of the much loved vertical progression? Is this meaningful gameplay to you? Not adding content in order to repeat the same content for years to come?

In my experience, these people not only complain about losing their progression with new content, but should they reach the end of where they can progress in a given content cycle, they are the first to complain asking for more new content to progress on.

Basically, they seem to want new content only added to the game when they are ready for it - not a moment sooner, and definitely not a second later.

fabula

George_Black wrote: »

I like how people are against expansions, the nice new map additions they bring, the new rbs and enemies, lore, lv cap increase, few new skills etc etc, because they say makes older gear -and "their progress"- redundant, yet the concept of doing the same loop to repair the same old lv50 sword is appealing to them.

Is this also part of the much loved vertical progression? Is this meaningful gameplay to you? Not adding content in order to repeat the same content for years to come?

To me the problem with expansions is not that you lose progression, it's that they remove and replace content and hardly ever do you end up with more content than you had before. With expansions the problem is that ALL of the max-lvl content is wasted after the expansion ends because hardly anyone is going to do it, an no, doing content for mounts like in WoW is just dumb and doesn't count. After a few of these expansions you have about the same max-lvl content as when the game first launched but you have a lot more leveling content. People then complain that it takes too long to reach max-lvl and that gets conpressed down to whatever it was at launch or less.

Using WoW as an example but it could really be any mmo. When it first came out it had a lot of nice zones with quests and dungeons. This content only took up about a played week in the life of a character but took up the majority of the game studio's resources. Otherwise they wouldn't have ended up with only a couple of dungeons, 1 working raid and 1 broken raid as their max-lvl content. In an expansion the opposite is true, most or all resources are spent on max-lvl content depending on whether the lvl-cap is increased or not.

Following this formula most of the work put into the game is wasted and you always have about the same amount of content so I can see why people are against such expansions and it's not just because they lose progression.

Vaknar

Personally, when I think of gear progression in an MMO I associate it with end-game. Ashes is a bit interesting in that we "don't have a typical end-game." (You can read more on that here) Which means that, while gear progression IS a part of the end-goal experience, really your focus might be on other aspects of gameplay like your node, your node government, your guild, or participating in other events around those features.

This is why gear enhancements will exist, which you can read more on here

We will learn more about gear enhancements, gear progression and how they work as we progress further in development.

What excited you all about gear-related features in Ashes of Creation?

Dygz

Part of the max Adventurer level experience. Yes.

Vaknar

Dygz wrote: »

@Vaknar
Ashes doesn't have an end-game. I think you mean max Adventurer level?

I believe I said that we don't have an end-game?

Edit: I changed it from "don't have an end-game." to "don't have a typical end-game." - Hope that clears up the confusion!

Vaknar

Dygz wrote: »

Part of the max Adventurer level experience. Yes.

Well said

Dygz

My current question for the next Dev Livestream:
Can Artisan skill boosts/stats be Crafted onto Adventurer gear?

George_Black

fabula wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

I like how people are against expansions, the nice new map additions they bring, the new rbs and enemies, lore, lv cap increase, few new skills etc etc, because they say makes older gear -and "their progress"- redundant, yet the concept of doing the same loop to repair the same old lv50 sword is appealing to them.

Is this also part of the much loved vertical progression? Is this meaningful gameplay to you? Not adding content in order to repeat the same content for years to come?

To me the problem with expansions is not that you lose progression, it's that they remove and replace content and hardly ever do you end up with more content than you had before. With expansions the problem is that ALL of the max-lvl content is wasted after the expansion ends because hardly anyone is going to do it, an no, doing content for mounts like in WoW is just dumb and doesn't count. After a few of these expansions you have about the same max-lvl content as when the game first launched but you have a lot more leveling content. People then complain that it takes too long to reach max-lvl and that gets conpressed down to whatever it was at launch or less.

Using WoW as an example but it could really be any mmo. When it first came out it had a lot of nice zones with quests and dungeons. This content only took up about a played week in the life of a character but took up the majority of the game studio's resources. Otherwise they wouldn't have ended up with only a couple of dungeons, 1 working raid and 1 broken raid as their max-lvl content. In an expansion the opposite is true, most or all resources are spent on max-lvl content depending on whether the lvl-cap is increased or not.

Following this formula most of the work put into the game is wasted and you always have about the same amount of content so I can see why people are against such expansions and it's not just because they lose progression.

First things first. Do you associate new content with instanced raids?

Dygz

When WoW first came out the content only took a week to reach max level??!!
You mean when Shadowlands came out??!!??

fabula

Dygz wrote: »

When WoW first came out the content only took a week to reach max level??!!
You mean when Shadowlands came out??!!??

A played week which is 24 * 7 = 168hrs

fabula

George_Black wrote: »

First things first. Do you associate new content with instanced raids?

I do not consider the leveling experience to be a part of the content I am talking about because this is just a one off thing you do once per character and unless a person hardly plays at all, most of their time will not be spent leveling up.

Content would then be any activity you can do in the game after you reach max-lvl or if you don't care about leveling up at all. This includes things like dungeons/raids, all the pvp activities such as sieges and wars and all tradeskill activities. It doesn't matter if its open-world or instanced.

Noaani

fabula wrote: »

To me the problem with expansions is not that you lose progression, it's that they remove and replace content and hardly ever do you end up with more content than you had before.

You aren't supposed to end up with more content, you aresupposed to end up with content you've not yet done.

Sure, all the previous max level content isn't worth doing, but this is only an issue if you're the kind of person that wants new content when they are ready for it, and not a moment earlier.

Developers need to add new content as soon as the games top end players have completed the existing content (ideally). If that means you miss out on some top end content, start getting through it faster instead of complaining.

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