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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Ashes of Creation Siege Engines and Defenses Part 2: Battering Rams, Mobile Sheds, and Moats
Goalid
Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
Time for part two on my series about historical siege weapons and tactics Intrepid can use to influence siege gameplay.
Imagine this scenario: your village node has been declared on by the owners of one of the five great castles of Verra. You and the inhabitants are terrified of the seemingly inevitable destruction of your home. You plan days in advance, reinforcing the sole gate of your node, the weak point of your fortification. It is however made of thick Mythril, you have that at least. You bring arrows to supply your archers along the walls, stockpile mana potions so your mages can cast fire magic at whatever monstrous machines these attackers have planned for you.
The day arrives, the drums of war blaring in the distance. You see the enemy wearing some of the finest armor you've ever witnessed. The enchantments from their weapons so strong you can feel their influence even at this range. They then begin to charge at the main gate. Fear spreads among your ranks; some weep, some pray. They reach your gate and you brace yourself for the horrors to come! And...
The attackers are now slashing the metal gate with their swords. The besieged look perplexed, why are they doing that? One warrior is stabbing the metal gate with his spear, an archer is shooting an arrow at it. Mages of the attackers are shouting incantations, some electrify the door, others set it aflame, but it's not made out of wood... A rogue is stabbing it with his dagger, a troupe of bards is blaring loudly as the attackers continue to stab and bang against the barrier. The summoner has sent a wolf to scratch at the gate. There's a lot of bodies in the way, so they're having a tough time hitting it all at once, as they are pushing against each other trying to scratch it.
You eventually shrug your arms and proceed to pour hot sand and quicklime on the attackers, their shrieks of pain not unlike the ones you imagined for yourself today. One of the attackers begins to scream "Damn it! This is an opponent unlike any I've faced before! It can't be slashed, frozen, burnt, electrocuted, pierced, and is even resistant to our maces!"
Getting to the point now, I don't like that in several siege modes, not just in Ashes of Creation Alpha One, that if there's a gate you have to go through, it's just about how much HP it has, and if you can get enough numbers to attack and destroy it. In reality I think it would add more strategy to the game, and enjoyment to gameplay, if you had to destroy a gate or wall with a battering ram, rather than just hit it with basic attacks and skills.
Going into the historical review, a battering ram was simply a log with a metal tip on the end. This meant that you could even cut down a nearby tree and use it as a battering ram. The simplest would just be carried by men, the more advanced were suspended by ropes and swung like a pendulum. But you have to remember that the besieged aren't going to just let a group of men swing a battering ram against their walls, they're going to try and attack them with arrows or thrown rocks. So, what eventually came about was that battering rams would be placed in a mobile shed. The mobile shed would protect the attackers from arrows or dropped stones as they were knocking down the wall or gates.
It would also have animal skins placed on the mobile shed, to make it more fire-resistant. These kinds of mobile shed battering rams were extremely effective, so the owners of fortifications would try and make the base of their walls thicker, and their main gates heavily guarded, in order to defend against these fearsome weapons.
Fortifications would also be built with moats, just a large ditch around the fortification to prevent a battering ram from being easily brought up to the city walls. The larger the city of course, the more difficult to build an effective moat that surrounds the entire city. The moat could also be filled with water in order to make the job of filling a section of it more difficult for the besiegers. We of course typically think of moats being filled with water.
To fill in these ditches, the invaders would use manpower. If you have an army of 10,000 men it is pretty simple to just order them to fulfill a daily quota of gathering dirt, rocks, or wood to be used to build a ramp or fill a ditch. To protect the attackers while they did this, they would again use a mobile shed made of animal skins and wood if they were in firing range. The Romans called these "vinea". These vinea did not require wheels, they could have stakes on the bottom that would pierce the ground, and to move them a group of men would simply pick up and move the vinea.
So, how can these ancient weapons and tactics be inspirational for Intrepid's team? Well luckily Intrepid has already had an eye on battering rams, based off what they had planned for Apocalypse in 2019.
What I would say is that there should be a driver for this mobile battering ram, and several bodies required to swing it against a wall. It should also be built with a large shed. If the attackers successfully bring this weapon to the gates, the shed can act as a barrier to line-of-sight attacks. Suddenly, bowman, mages, and other defenders cannot sit on top of the walls and kill the besiegers. They'll have to come down from the walls, and get into a melee on the ground. It's a nice way to take away an advantage the defenders have with the walls, as long as you can get the battering ram right up to the wall.
To fight against the battering ram and its shed, I imagine it should be vulnerable to fire and trebuchets the defenders may have on top of their walls. And if all of the operators of the battering ram are killed, the Sally should be able to destroy it.
The feature I'm most concerned about would be moats to protect against battering rams and siege towers. I would think giving the option to create moats is the easy part for mayors, with the inhabitants of a node having to fulfill some task to build a moat. Or moats just being automatically placed. The hard part would be having a game mechanic that attackers can use to overcome this hurdle. These are the solutions I've come up with if Intrepid wants to include moats:
1) Allow a vinea shed to be built. While it is placed in front of the moat with a player inside it, the direct area of the moat in front of the vinea begins to be filled with dirt. I'd have it take 5 minutes to fill in an area of moat with a vinea. The vinea would be destructible by melee attackers, fire, or trebuchets.
2) Have summoners summon a pile of dirt to fill in the moat. A siege only ability for summoners. Perhaps this can require a group summon to increase difficulty.
3) Create a new siege engine that would act as a bridge. You need to secure the area around the most, and then buy your siege engineers the time to create a bridge for you to bring battering rams and siege towers up to the walls / gate.
I believe having moats adds a good degree of strategy to the sieges, because there's multiple stages to bringing down a wall. To get inside the outer wall is to be able to lay waste to all the node buildings inside that bailey, with only more inner walls blocking an attacker's progress. It doesn't even matter if the attackers can't take the main keep, as long as they've destroyed most of the node buildings, the siege could be considered a success. The node will lose trade, have to rebuild all of those buildings, and perhaps prepare for an immediate siege declaration once their protected window is over.
Creating multiple phases to bringing down a wall should be the focus of Intrepid, not the boring gameplay we are all so used to, of breaking through the walls and gates only being a formality during a siege, and the real gameplay being over a control point.
Those phases in my mind at the moment would be this for a typical strategy:
1) Take down trebuchets and defensive structures on top of walls with offensive trebuchet, so you can easily approach the walls with siege equipment.
2) Create a bridge or fill in a moat so you can tamper with the wall.
3) Break down the wall with a battering ram, take over the wall via siege towers, ladders, or gliding mounts, or undermine the wall with sapping.
4) Get through the choke point entrance you've created, or use that choke point as a distraction to get past other points of the wall, creating more entry points.
5) Capture of a respawn control point inside that section of a node, and force the defenders to retreat further within the city.
I've had a lot of fun making these posts! I hope others are getting something from these too. Next week, I'm planning to switch from looking at the besiegers, to the besieged. I'm going to talk about the architecture of castles including: machicolations, crenulation, towers, drawbridges, gatehouses, and arrow slits. Let me know what y'all think about adding moats and battering rams.
Link to my previous post on walls, ladders, and sapping: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/52168/ashes-of-creation-siege-engines-and-defenses-part-1-walls-ladders-and-tunnels#latest
Imagine this scenario: your village node has been declared on by the owners of one of the five great castles of Verra. You and the inhabitants are terrified of the seemingly inevitable destruction of your home. You plan days in advance, reinforcing the sole gate of your node, the weak point of your fortification. It is however made of thick Mythril, you have that at least. You bring arrows to supply your archers along the walls, stockpile mana potions so your mages can cast fire magic at whatever monstrous machines these attackers have planned for you.
The day arrives, the drums of war blaring in the distance. You see the enemy wearing some of the finest armor you've ever witnessed. The enchantments from their weapons so strong you can feel their influence even at this range. They then begin to charge at the main gate. Fear spreads among your ranks; some weep, some pray. They reach your gate and you brace yourself for the horrors to come! And...
The attackers are now slashing the metal gate with their swords. The besieged look perplexed, why are they doing that? One warrior is stabbing the metal gate with his spear, an archer is shooting an arrow at it. Mages of the attackers are shouting incantations, some electrify the door, others set it aflame, but it's not made out of wood... A rogue is stabbing it with his dagger, a troupe of bards is blaring loudly as the attackers continue to stab and bang against the barrier. The summoner has sent a wolf to scratch at the gate. There's a lot of bodies in the way, so they're having a tough time hitting it all at once, as they are pushing against each other trying to scratch it.
You eventually shrug your arms and proceed to pour hot sand and quicklime on the attackers, their shrieks of pain not unlike the ones you imagined for yourself today. One of the attackers begins to scream "Damn it! This is an opponent unlike any I've faced before! It can't be slashed, frozen, burnt, electrocuted, pierced, and is even resistant to our maces!"
Getting to the point now, I don't like that in several siege modes, not just in Ashes of Creation Alpha One, that if there's a gate you have to go through, it's just about how much HP it has, and if you can get enough numbers to attack and destroy it. In reality I think it would add more strategy to the game, and enjoyment to gameplay, if you had to destroy a gate or wall with a battering ram, rather than just hit it with basic attacks and skills.
Going into the historical review, a battering ram was simply a log with a metal tip on the end. This meant that you could even cut down a nearby tree and use it as a battering ram. The simplest would just be carried by men, the more advanced were suspended by ropes and swung like a pendulum. But you have to remember that the besieged aren't going to just let a group of men swing a battering ram against their walls, they're going to try and attack them with arrows or thrown rocks. So, what eventually came about was that battering rams would be placed in a mobile shed. The mobile shed would protect the attackers from arrows or dropped stones as they were knocking down the wall or gates.
It would also have animal skins placed on the mobile shed, to make it more fire-resistant. These kinds of mobile shed battering rams were extremely effective, so the owners of fortifications would try and make the base of their walls thicker, and their main gates heavily guarded, in order to defend against these fearsome weapons.
Fortifications would also be built with moats, just a large ditch around the fortification to prevent a battering ram from being easily brought up to the city walls. The larger the city of course, the more difficult to build an effective moat that surrounds the entire city. The moat could also be filled with water in order to make the job of filling a section of it more difficult for the besiegers. We of course typically think of moats being filled with water.
To fill in these ditches, the invaders would use manpower. If you have an army of 10,000 men it is pretty simple to just order them to fulfill a daily quota of gathering dirt, rocks, or wood to be used to build a ramp or fill a ditch. To protect the attackers while they did this, they would again use a mobile shed made of animal skins and wood if they were in firing range. The Romans called these "vinea". These vinea did not require wheels, they could have stakes on the bottom that would pierce the ground, and to move them a group of men would simply pick up and move the vinea.
So, how can these ancient weapons and tactics be inspirational for Intrepid's team? Well luckily Intrepid has already had an eye on battering rams, based off what they had planned for Apocalypse in 2019.
What I would say is that there should be a driver for this mobile battering ram, and several bodies required to swing it against a wall. It should also be built with a large shed. If the attackers successfully bring this weapon to the gates, the shed can act as a barrier to line-of-sight attacks. Suddenly, bowman, mages, and other defenders cannot sit on top of the walls and kill the besiegers. They'll have to come down from the walls, and get into a melee on the ground. It's a nice way to take away an advantage the defenders have with the walls, as long as you can get the battering ram right up to the wall.
To fight against the battering ram and its shed, I imagine it should be vulnerable to fire and trebuchets the defenders may have on top of their walls. And if all of the operators of the battering ram are killed, the Sally should be able to destroy it.
The feature I'm most concerned about would be moats to protect against battering rams and siege towers. I would think giving the option to create moats is the easy part for mayors, with the inhabitants of a node having to fulfill some task to build a moat. Or moats just being automatically placed. The hard part would be having a game mechanic that attackers can use to overcome this hurdle. These are the solutions I've come up with if Intrepid wants to include moats:
1) Allow a vinea shed to be built. While it is placed in front of the moat with a player inside it, the direct area of the moat in front of the vinea begins to be filled with dirt. I'd have it take 5 minutes to fill in an area of moat with a vinea. The vinea would be destructible by melee attackers, fire, or trebuchets.
2) Have summoners summon a pile of dirt to fill in the moat. A siege only ability for summoners. Perhaps this can require a group summon to increase difficulty.
3) Create a new siege engine that would act as a bridge. You need to secure the area around the most, and then buy your siege engineers the time to create a bridge for you to bring battering rams and siege towers up to the walls / gate.
I believe having moats adds a good degree of strategy to the sieges, because there's multiple stages to bringing down a wall. To get inside the outer wall is to be able to lay waste to all the node buildings inside that bailey, with only more inner walls blocking an attacker's progress. It doesn't even matter if the attackers can't take the main keep, as long as they've destroyed most of the node buildings, the siege could be considered a success. The node will lose trade, have to rebuild all of those buildings, and perhaps prepare for an immediate siege declaration once their protected window is over.
Creating multiple phases to bringing down a wall should be the focus of Intrepid, not the boring gameplay we are all so used to, of breaking through the walls and gates only being a formality during a siege, and the real gameplay being over a control point.
Those phases in my mind at the moment would be this for a typical strategy:
1) Take down trebuchets and defensive structures on top of walls with offensive trebuchet, so you can easily approach the walls with siege equipment.
2) Create a bridge or fill in a moat so you can tamper with the wall.
3) Break down the wall with a battering ram, take over the wall via siege towers, ladders, or gliding mounts, or undermine the wall with sapping.
4) Get through the choke point entrance you've created, or use that choke point as a distraction to get past other points of the wall, creating more entry points.
5) Capture of a respawn control point inside that section of a node, and force the defenders to retreat further within the city.
I've had a lot of fun making these posts! I hope others are getting something from these too. Next week, I'm planning to switch from looking at the besiegers, to the besieged. I'm going to talk about the architecture of castles including: machicolations, crenulation, towers, drawbridges, gatehouses, and arrow slits. Let me know what y'all think about adding moats and battering rams.
Link to my previous post on walls, ladders, and sapping: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/52168/ashes-of-creation-siege-engines-and-defenses-part-1-walls-ladders-and-tunnels#latest
5
Comments
Yeah that would be ideal, I think ESO had portions of walls be destructible in their siege mode from videos I've seen, so it's not like there isn't precedent for it.
Haha I never would've thought of something like this. I wonder what other weird weaponry and defenses used to exist!
Ladders - Carry the ladders that you can craft to to walls to breach. Ladders could be pushed off or destroyed.
Castle Arrow Slits - Those slits you see in tower walls to shoot arrows at enemy, often the width just enough to fling arrows out about a hand width or less. It would be nice if you had a ability for the people looking out to maximize this angle from the inside like looking through a portal to a enlarged view. Only the most skilled, which depending on area, lets go with england, the bowman could shoot targets outside the wall safely from enemy fire. Its a defender buff in a way i guess. The typical wall slit for arrows is a V shape with the top of the V being towards the archer shooting out. In real life training your whole life since a boy to be a master bowman is one thing to get the accuracy and lethality down. But in a Video game on a pc screen in our century you cant expect alot of people to be able to be as lethal, so a view buff would be nice.
Catapult Ammunition - Besides the typical rock being hurled at times enemies would even launch sickly/dead men/cows whatever plague could be sent into the walls to soften the target. Would be cool to be able to do the same to soften the target through per say a debuff before entering. I'm sure it could be done in a fun yet unique way using Ashes of Creation animals, monsters what have you.
I'm actually going to go into arrow slits in the next post! Maybe even murder holes if they do proper gatehouses. Trebuchets are a couple of weeks away for me, trying to exhaust the subject completely in these posts.