In-game Skill Macros?

I know they've said they don't want to allow scripting/macroing, but will there be in-game skill rotation macros? Like where you can 'create an attack' which is just multiple skills in succession? I've played some games with this and I love it because I can spend time testing out my various rotations and then just save that to a macro rather than having to repetitively mash skills like I'm playing the piano on my keyboard.

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bloodprophet

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Security_systems#Macros

Macros
The issue with macros is that from an anti cheat metric perspective it's difficult to define what a macro is against a script. And in order to catch all scripts sometimes you have to prevent the macro usage. So really that's a that's a data issue. If we allow for macros then we lose our ability to precisely ban script users, botters.[6] – Steven Sharif

Sylvanar

superhero6785 wrote: »

I can spend time testing out my various rotations and then just save that to a macro rather than having to repetitively mash skills like I'm playing the piano on my keyboard.

This is you asking IS to compromise on skill play. Being able to successfully execute your rotations 10/10 times without making a mistake, making small changes to it as needed, etc. is what displays a players skill. Not merely figuring out the best rotations, that is the easy part.

If macros were allowed according to what you are suggesting, then we can easily find the rotation suited to our characters and spam the macro key while sipping coffee. Infact we can easily run a 2 line script where the mouse will automatically spam the macro key while we sleep. Lastly, everyone can just copy paste the best macros and be the best.

Will my gameplay suffer cuz I am older and my mechanical skills aren't what they used to be? Yes. But this isn't an excuse to be lazy or not try. Afterall no one is forcing anyone to play the game.

PS: Things like no addons, no macros is what makes AoC attractive to me and are non-negotiable.

AidanKD

I don't understand the desire to have the game played for you. Don't you lose the satisfaction you get when you achieve something through your own ability and through time and effort?

Sylvanar pretty much nails it - but yeah if we can use not having it as an additional counter measure to bots - I can't think of a good reason to have macros in the game.

Design the game and classes in a way that macro's aren't required (i.e. a bunch of instant spells need to be mashed at once) and it should be a non issue.

superhero6785

AidanKD wrote: »

I don't understand the desire to have the game played for you. Don't you lose the satisfaction you get when you achieve something through your own ability and through time and effort?

It's all a matter of degree. You can say the same about a run toggle key - "don't you like holding W for 10 minutes as you run from town to town?" Or a Craft All button - "don't you like crafting 100 daggers one by one?" Different strokes for different folks. I knew this was a contested idea, I was just throwing it out there.

Voxtrium

I'd be real salty if every time i got outplayed by a player it turned out the dude had pressed his macro key and managed to get off his abilities in the ideal sequence and timing

Taleof2Cities

superhero6785 wrote: »

AidanKD wrote: »

I don't understand the desire to have the game played for you. Don't you lose the satisfaction you get when you achieve something through your own ability and through time and effort?

It's all a matter of degree. You can say the same about a run toggle key - "don't you like holding W for 10 minutes as you run from town to town?" Or a Craft All button - "don't you like crafting 100 daggers one by one?" Different strokes for different folks. I knew this was a contested idea, I was just throwing it out there.

Many big name MMOs draw a clear line between combat macros versus other activities (crafting, exploring, etc.), @superhero6785.

It's not a contested idea.

HumblePuffin

If I’m able to use macros in a game I do tend to use them. However I personally do not want to see skill sequence macros in AoC.

I wouldn’t mind see fun macros like being able to macro a /say “coming in hot” to a fireball ability, or to go a little further down the rabbit hole, macros that put a raid marker on the target you’re attacking, but anything that can essentially play the game for you in any serious way would hopefully not be included.

Sylvanar

superhero6785 wrote: »

It's all a matter of degree. You can say the same about a run toggle key - "don't you like holding W for 10 minutes as you run from town to town?"

Pressing W for 10 min takes skill? Take a small rock and place it on your 'W' key for 10 mins, setup a timer and come back after. Macro done.

Then auto aim should be permitted too by your logic if its all a matter of degree of I don't know what and not skill.

I don't know what games you have played, but if you aren't playing your keyboard like a piano in PvP type games, you aren't playing them right or lacking in skill, at least as far as games with competitive nature are concerned.

superhero6785

Sylvanar wrote: »

Then auto aim should be permitted too by your logic if its all a matter of degree of I don't know what and not skill.

Idk about you, but most MMO's I've played use tab-targeting which is essentially auto aim. And yes, I would agree that is all part of the 'to what degree' debate. Someone who loves action combat might be upset if they lose in PvP to tab target abilities. It's all personal preference about how you want combat to play and what you think is appropriate skill required vs what is convenience. To me, I like tab target. I also like in-game skill macros. If it's supported in game, it's not an advantage that any one person has, it's just part of combat. I don't expect everyone to like skill macros, just as I don't expect everyone to like tab target.

JustVine

Avoxtrium wrote: »

I'd be real salty if every time i got outplayed by a player it turned out the dude had pressed his macro key and managed to get off his abilities in the ideal sequence and timing

Why? People say they don't want combos and execution based difficulty in the game because 'i don't want to play tekken'. I'm not saying you said this, but there are a lot of people who have. So if you do want twitch reaction gameplay ignore my question, but if you don't but care about a macro, why is THAT your line in the sand?

Vaknar

We understand that some of our players would like to see macros. Though as @bloodprophet mentioned, Steven has said in the past that it's a difficult decision to make. One of the primary reasons is because of security concerns.

AidanKD

I think that macro's in combat for the competitiveness of it versus its use in something like "craft all" to repeat a mundane activity are slightly different gradients. Personally I am against the FF14 system of make a system which *requires* you to macro it to really tolerate it for extended periods.

But Vaknar is right - the idea of dropping macro's entirely to rule out more botting options is enough of a reason in my book.

Voxtrium

Being outplayed with a macro isnt an outplay, a player casting abilities in sequence to maximize buff/debuff times is an outplay. A macro removes that ability which kinda sucks for the PvP environment.

superhero6785

AidanKD wrote: »

But Vaknar is right - the idea of dropping macro's entirely to rule out more botting options is enough of a reason in my book.

Yeah, I guess I just highly doubt that will stop people from macroing who want to macro. It's way too easy to make your macro "look real" by adding random delays and multiple combos used in random orders. It's a never ending cat & mouse game who's only impacted demographic is people who want it for convenience. But if the rational is for competitive reasons, I can understand that.

Balanz

My concern is not about macros as such, but with accessibility.

For the sake of my ability to play the game, I would hope that not all builds require the same frequency of button presses per minute.

For example, I really wanted to play Elite Dangerous, so I borrowed a PS4. Between my lack of experience with controllers, and arthritis in my left hand, I could not accurately control my ship for any length of time. I am fine with a keyboard and mouse or trackball, and if I had put the money into a gaming PC, I could have done that.

I understand that the vast majority of the player base must be able to express mastery in combat through quick reflexes and tactics, and I wouldn't deny them that for my sake.

I only hope that there are at least a few viable builds, not necessarily every class, that accommodate fewer button presses per minute.

So far, I am pinning these hopes on the Summoner, and perhaps Combat Pet Builds more generally. It would be nice for some other slow builds.

superhero6785

Balanz wrote: »

My concern is not about macros as such, but with accessibility.

For the sake of my ability to play the game, I would hope that not all builds require the same frequency of button presses per minute.

For example, I really wanted to play Elite Dangerous, so I borrowed a PS4. Between my lack of experience with controllers, and arthritis in my left hand, I could not accurately control my ship for any length of time. I am fine with a keyboard and mouse or trackball, and if I had put the money into a gaming PC, I could have done that.

I understand that the vast majority of the player base must be able to express mastery in combat through quick reflexes and tactics, and I wouldn't deny them that for my sake.

I only hope that there are at least a few viable builds, not necessarily every class, that accommodate fewer button presses per minute.

So far, I am pinning these hopes on the Summoner, and perhaps Combat Pet Builds more generally. It would be nice for some other slow builds.

Thank you for giving a good real world example of where skill macros offer "necessary" conveniences to certain players. I'm not denying others may be able to out-KPM me, but I personally never really attributed KPM/APM to the MMO skill based combat. For me, it was more about learning your character, learning your rotations, and then executing them at a "reasonable pace", even if that meant having a few skill macros in use. For me, the "skill" in an MMO came more from recognizing mechanics, knowing when to pop your big cooldowns, knowing when to counter and with what, and individual reaction time more so than being able to play Flight of the Bumblebee to perfect execution. I know that's not everyone's take, but can we at least all agree that what constitutes "skill" has different definitions to different people, and no one person is "right"? Maybe my casual is showing.

Caww

As long as combat is not too twitchy then the need for automation is negligible. If combat becomes "the fastest gun" wins then something else needs to be done to correct that. Strategy, set up and prep need to account for some advantage, not just who gets their load out there first.

Taleof2Cities

superhero6785 wrote: »

AidanKD wrote: »

But Vaknar is right - the idea of dropping macro's entirely to rule out more botting options is enough of a reason in my book.

Yeah, I guess I just highly doubt that will stop people from macroing who want to macro. It's way too easy to make your macro "look real" by adding random delays and multiple combos used in random orders. It's a never ending cat & mouse game who's only impacted demographic is people who want it for convenience. But if the rational is for competitive reasons, I can understand that.

Macro enforcement is definitely a topic for another thread, @superhero6785 ... we can only hope that Intrepid can catch cheaters and hax with ultramodern methods.

The topic of this thread, however, is should Ashes have in-game skill rotation macros.

If we look at other MMOs as precedent, the answer is a clear 'no'.

HumblePuffin

Caww wrote: »

As long as combat is not too twitchy then the need for automation is negligible. If combat becomes "the fastest gun" wins then something else needs to be done to correct that. Strategy, set up and prep need to account for some advantage, not just who gets their load out there first.

I hope the class system leads some room for both categories. Archwizards who have longer cast time spells for those big damaging abilities, Striders who are constantly moving around the battle field as they deal damage, Assassins who are trying to put as many of their skills on CD as fast as they can to burst people down, Guardians who are trying focus more on active attacking and managing the buff time the x/bard gives them.

superhero6785

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Macro enforcement is definitely a topic for another thread, @superhero6785 ... we can only hope that Intrepid can catch cheaters and hax with ultramodern methods.

The topic of this thread, however, is should Ashes have in-game skill rotation macros.

Catching botters seems to be tied directly to the decision not to allow skill macros. One can't be discussed without the other.

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