Best examples of Action Combat? Starting to Feel Like Tab > Action

Yours truly is trying a lot of different MMO's lately, and it's starting to feel pointless to have an Action-style combat system in a real MMORPG.

Now, I've tried Lost Ark - which is probably the end-all of Action-style combat systems. I didn't stick with it (80 hours, according to the tracker) because Lost Ark feels like a single-player game. It's almost akin to a 2D-scroller, except you can move in all of the compass directions. The most useful insight it provided is that Action-style combat really isn't very useful against a single opponent, since the game is capable of not registering that you're trying to hit the enemy; it's true usefulness seems to be in fighting against groups of enemies. However, most MMO's will let you tab-target either yourself or a single enemy, and then fire off an AoE ability, in fighting groups.

Since enemies in MMO's tend to gather directly around you or bunch up together in small, cloistered groups that you can just AoE, is it really necessary to HAVE Action-style combat in an MMO? Isn't it more of a hack-and-slash game feature?

Just started trying Guild Wars 2 - which in previous forums-threads, some people identify as Action-combat, while others identify it as Tab-targeting. I've come to define GW2 as Action-combat, since you don't have to have an enemy targeted to use your combat abilities, and your weapon swings freely - damaging any enemies in your way. I've already tried Lineage 2, since AoC is supposed to take a lot of inspiration from it's systems, and just find it too static/old now to really get into, as a new player.

Are there some really good examples of Action-based systems anyone can recommend? I'm not enjoying the feel/gameplay of GW2, atm.

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Azherae

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

Yours truly is trying a lot of different MMO's lately, and it's starting to feel pointless to have an Action-style combat system in a real MMORPG.

Now, I've tried Lost Ark - which is probably the end-all of Action-style combat systems. I didn't stick with it (80 hours, according to the tracker) because Lost Ark feels like a single-player game. It's almost akin to a 2D-scroller, except you can move in all of the compass directions. The most useful insight it provided is that Action-style combat really isn't very useful against a single opponent, since the game is capable of not registering that you're trying to hit the enemy; it's true usefulness seems to be in fighting against groups of enemies. However, most MMO's will let you tab-target either yourself or a single enemy, and then fire off an AoE ability, in fighting groups.

Since enemies in MMO's tend to gather directly around you or bunch up together in small, cloistered groups that you can just AoE, is it really necessary to HAVE Action-style combat in an MMO? Isn't it more of a hack-and-slash game feature?

Just started trying Guild Wars 2 - which in previous forums-threads, some people identify as Action-combat, while others identify it as Tab-targeting. I've come to define GW2 as Action-combat, since you don't have to have an enemy targeted to use your combat abilities, and your weapon swings freely - damaging any enemies in your way. I've already tried Lineage 2, since AoC is supposed to take a lot of inspiration from it's systems, and just find it too static/old now to really get into, as a new player.

Are there some really good examples of Action-based systems anyone can recommend? I'm not enjoying the feel/gameplay of GW2, atm.

Still plugging Neverwinter as always.

In terms of 'games that are not necessarily otherwise great proper MMOs', Blade and Soul is among the best as far as I know, and Onigiri is a specific type of thing that works decently due to being very spacing dependent, but isn't necessarily 'not tab targeted' either.

All these games are relatively lower mobility games, which I feel is somewhat required for the RPG part of MMORPG to happen. Even in voice chat, you can't really roleplay (not necessarily heavy RP, just sometimes 'basically any') if you can't rely on spacing or make predictions about situations.

The 'problem' with Tab Targeting in my opinion is that it often takes the 'spacing' aspect out of the game too, which feels to me to be a meaningful downgrade to the experience. Building in any type of 'tab targeting works but your spacing determines your damage or effectiveness' essentially makes the 'tab target' mode useless for difficult content, and refusing to build that in leads to the 'action target' mode useless for medium content.

Overall, Neverwinter does it best, even if you don't like the abilities in the game, you can sort of imagine what the game would feel like with more satisfying abilities, so maybe try that if you haven't.

arsnn

Here is a relatively comprehensive list.

Tera online: Although the game shuts down in a week, it is considered of most as probably the best action combat there is. The first time i played it i was blown away by it´s combat, i have never had so much fun pressing a button. Due it´s action nature, the spell quantity was limited and most open world PvE became stale quickly.
This video makes up for a good basis on difference of tab-targeting and iterations of action combat and on what made tera "truly action". Worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RGzzS1jGJc&t=1s

BDO: Contrary to tera the combat does not become stale even when grinding mobs for hours, as the combo system allows for many combinations of your spells. This is the strength and also the core of the game, you basically grind spots all day to progress. I have never really gotten into the combat, something felt off for me, but the skill ceiling is really high in that game.

Kritika Online: A hub based mmo that has a few really fun classes. The combat is a bit adhd though, you constantly press your 3-6 second cds from a selection of like 6 abilities. It feels like a mix of fighting and hack n slash.

Invictus: Another action / hackn slash type of combat, with reaction and dodging at it´s core.

Blade and Soul: Feels like "Fighting game THE MMO". Blocking, dodging, reaction and utility very key here.

PS02 is another one, though i have never played it.

Other 3D action combat games:

Smite: Because it´s a moba they made it really sanitized and clean, but also limited in terms of how movement and ability feels.

Kurtzpel: Fun classes with good ideas. But the permanent animation locking is frustrating.

Noaani

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

Yours truly is trying a lot of different MMO's lately, and it's starting to feel pointless to have an Action-style combat system in a real MMORPG.

This is something I agree with, and have been saying for a while.

A tab target combat system is not all that great for PvP. Action combat is where it's at there. It makes what you do as a player more interesting, but also makes the player you are fighting more interesting.

However, when it comes to PvE, tab target is where it's at.

With tab target, there absolutely is less to the combat system from a players perspective. However, this leaves developers free to make up that difference on the encounter side of things.

If you work on the assumption that developers can develop content in either tab or action combat that will overwhelm players (they can), you then have to assume that they can develop content to give players as much or as little to do as they want, and that action or tab have no bearing on how intense it is to fight a PvE encounter.

Based on this, action combat gives developers less wiggle room on the encounter side of things than tab combat does meaning there is less room for variation in PvE content.

The other downside to this is that tab target is often boring on trash mobs, where as with action combat you still have that action combat system.

It is essentially only at the top end of PvE where action combat shortfalls become glaringly obvious, though they can be spotted in other aspects of you look.

Songcaller

I'm not convinced at all. Rng was designed for tab because without rng tab is op. On top of that, with poor hitboxes action can be op.

The only time there are issues around imbalance between an input system and an output system is when both are designed in isolation.

Tab target is utter shit in collision and Los systems. Action Combat is utter Shite for a tank. Nothing urks me more in a duel than 1 million 'target not acquired' 'target not visible' 'target out of range' text spam.

The only issue around pve is the threat tables because I will have to have single tab target taunts for the tanks to ensure the toughest raid bosses are not all pulled into one Chaos combat circle except by utter noobs who spam aoe taunt and dps buttons.

Hybrid will always be superior because it merges all concepts and does not suffer narrow mind syndrome.

NishUK

Noaani wrote: »

However, when it comes to PvE, tab target is where it's at.

With tab target, there absolutely is less to the combat system from a players perspective. However, this leaves developers free to make up that difference on the encounter side of things.

I'd prefer not to lean on complete bias towards an ordered and strategically PvE setting.

Hardcore PvE, from a niche NA playerbase perspective is mainly focused around timely rotating skills and countering an enemies threats via a skill in a timely manner with a skill or a very simple movement of the character.
Tab target prioritizes a players role and capability, in an extremely simple manner and this old and rustic design almost completely eliminates interesting and reactive player combat and input. FF14 and WoW raids play out, pretty much like a poor puzzle game, you'll keep re-doing a boss and make corrections until you've solved it (and then once it's solved, look on youtube for the guide and follow the script...).
The entertainment value to this (besides the reason you fight, for the loot) for the most part, is quite comical as it's competitive, the name of the game is don't be the one to screw up, including offering a bit of social or leader roleplaying. It's funny because in it's competitive nature, the people who generally love this type of thing and herald "This is why we play MMO's" hate any talk, potential concepts or involvement in PvP although I can definetly sympthasize, as PvP isn't something directly rewarding, especially when tab target limits gameplay success to stats and timed rotations.

I'm sorry, but if you believe in tab target for the future production of something that is meant to be the next big attraction, provide solid entertainment and inspire people to play, you've failed to realize the potential and growth of gaming.

I will agree with you that action combat is neutured by a lack of passion and ideas of development on a mass scale, ie when many people are vs's a boss, crowd control doesn't work, so the whole impact and mechanics that players were used to and trained at have been sullied and all skill rests on quickly sending out attacking skills and evasion mechanics. In terms of bosses or encounters being way more difficult to develop though toward action combat I completely disagree, I don't think at all there is enough evidence to support that and I don't particularly want to give a further view on it.

Main point, for a real mmorppg (not a console/story one...), after 2010, to appeal to a wide scale audience that has numerous genre competitions it must go more action orientated.
If you didn't see the potential from BDO's combat system, I don't know what to tell you, the games systems and progression in its entirety was an uninpsiring mess but its foundations for player input and viewing reaction were next level, the quality of combat almost made you not care about the fact it was a failed mmo and if it had actual team/role synergy and a enjoyable/expanded war & objective system (without bs p2w) it could of been something decent!

At the end of the day Steven has seen the potential in Archeage, I'm not too concerned because there was quite a fair chunk of mobility and targetting going on with that game but I really do hope the mmo can go to the next level already, I like a diverse array of people...

NishUK

( no delete post option....New World's Archery/Mage targetting system is the future, for providing more excitement, like a good FPS and balancing because as Lineage 2, Archeage and even League of Legends has shown for 10 years, balancing things that always hit you is a big fail ).

Songcaller

Lol realised rng has no place in serious games. When rng decides a world cup and not skill, composure or knowledge then there is a huge red flag.

A top end raider should realise that tab and rng combo is a tame way to fight on rails. You can still use tab in Ashes, but, beware that tab will also flag you as combatant if wrong target chosen. Aoe will auto tab to pve toughest mob. Not that aoe should require a target at all. A nuke doesn't avoid the middle house of 3.

NishUK

Neurath wrote: »

When rng decides a world cup and not skill, composure or knowledge then there is a huge red flag.

Tournaments are a test of all elements, mainly controllable but some uncontrollable and it's what can bring many countries/people together, otherwise you'd only have the best players who consistently play in the top flight winning.

Basically, if you don't like surprises, you can play mutliply games that focus on 1v1 with strict rules, strict balancing and where strengths and weaknesses are limited.

Nerror

I rather enjoyed BDO's action combat. I don't really want Intrepid to change the direction they are going in now, but if for some reason they decided to go full action combat, it isn't a bad example to aim for.

If you have the time, go try it out. I am not recommending the game as a whole really , but the combat is fine and you might enjoy that type of action combat.

Songcaller

NishUK wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

When rng decides a world cup and not skill, composure or knowledge then there is a huge red flag.

Tournaments are a test of all elements, mainly controllable but some uncontrollable and it's what can bring many countries/people together, otherwise you'd only have the best players who consistently play in the top flight winning.

Basically, if you don't like surprises, you can play mutliply games that focus on 1v1 with strict rules, strict balancing and where strengths and weaknesses are limited.

There is 2 types of rng. I love input rng which you have referenced. I have referenced output rng. If you bought a gallon of fuel but you fuel gauge gave you a random number of miles available each time would you drive the car?

Songcaller

I tell you what. Let's not bother having buttons to input shit. Get a piece of paper and a calculator and let the random sums play for you. So much cheaper to develop. I'd rather not have tab rails, output failure support and nerfs to content.

CROW3

As far as action systems I find most enjoyable - Witcher 3. For MMOs, Neverwinter is probably my top entry. BDO is probably 2nd.

Ludullu

I love Genshin's action combat, but I dunno if that would work in an mmo context. It also has autotargeting for basic ranged attacks AND IT'S ABYSMALLY BAD. But outside of that it feels nice, animations are fluid (at least to me) and character movement feels snappy.

McShave

I think action with some tab is good for melee and tab with some action is good for range. melee attacks should be aimed and can hit multiple people but have some abilities that must be targeted, while ranged attacks should be guarenteed hits but then also have skill shots.

Songcaller

In my mind, unless you have a reticle, if you face someone that is you targeting that person. You do not turn to someone and surround them with a big red border before you say hello.

Noaani

NishUK wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

However, when it comes to PvE, tab target is where it's at.

With tab target, there absolutely is less to the combat system from a players perspective. However, this leaves developers free to make up that difference on the encounter side of things.

I'd prefer not to lean on complete bias towards an ordered and strategically PvE setting.

Hardcore PvE, from a niche NA playerbase perspective is mainly focused around timely rotating skills and countering an enemies threats via a skill in a timely manner with a skill or a very simple movement of the character.

This is only one design possibility within the tab target paradigm, it is not by any means the only way it can go.

The other major design possibility is to aim for spell priority, rather than spell rotation.

This spell priority paradigm is achieved simply by adding change to things during combat. Not necessarily RNG, just change. This does also mean that your assertion that tab target necessitates that the combat system be old and rustic in design, and almost completely eliminates interesting and reactive player combat and input isnt inherently true to all tab target, only to tab target that follows the spell rotation paradigm.

Songcaller

I made builds which fuelled each other and builds that fuelled itself. The builds which fuelled each other were op combined and too weak alone. Therefore, active buffs became passive buffs at long range to accommodate the need for individual action.

The other build which fuelled itself was rather too rigid. You mentioned spell rotation, well, with the fuelled buffs the rotation could not be changed and was always the same.

Therefore, both approaches were reversed and turned into class buffs. The class buffs mean rotation has ended and choice had been frees. However, the build seems simple because the extra functions have been absorbed or given to bard.

I have requested a combat tracker now and before I could not expect all the mini buffs, hots, dots and bursts to be trackable without a ct. Anyway, the requests are in and implementation takes time.

It is strange to be disconnected from any actual information back right now.

JamesSunderland

I dislike how a lot of people considers games as either completely Action combat or completely Tab-target combat as a dichotomy instead of a spectrum, Not even talking about straight up hybrid combat like GW2 that has a good balance of both action and tab target skills, even games where huge part of the skills are tab target like Archeage it still has a lot of Action skills, the pretty much full action combat game BDO has Aim Assist nowadays, even straight up hack-and-slash games like Devil May Cry and Bayonetta has some form on targeting.

I personaly like both Action combat and Tab target combat as long as not completely one or the other, therefore a good mix of both is the best in my opinion, thankfully Ashes is planning on going for hybrid.

As for questions
Q: is it really necessary to HAVE Action-style combat in an MMO?

A: Nowadays yes, but only to a certain extent as 100% Tab target becomes less viable even for MMORPGs as time goes by, and there is no need to go full on Action like BDO before the aim assist or Lost Ark.

Q: Isn't it more of a hack-and-slash game feature?

A: I would say originally, more of a fighting game feature, but certainly also a hack-and-slash feature even tho the majoriy of them still has some form of target.

Q: Are there some really good examples of Action-based systems anyone can recommend?

A: For MMORPGs in specific probably BDO, Blade and Soul and even tho very near it's scheduled death, Tera.

Songcaller

All action combat remains soft targeting. Really, me and the devs could have gone undercover and done the whole class academy with soft targeting and everyone would claim we were no longer hybrid. Lol.

George_Black

Tera Online. And that was back in 2011-2013.

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