BLEEP the Casuals.

We keep seeing these "protect the causals" posts, frankly I'm sick of them. Here's a list of reasons why altering gameplay for the sake of people who aren't invested in the game is bad (if that isn't reason enough already):

1) Removing features because SOME people can't handle them is wrong. The goal of AoC shouldn't be to pander to as large of a group as possible, simplifying things to the most mediocre levels, it should be to make a good game and receive a following based on a good design.

2) Easy =/= Good. If I play a video game that requires me to learn absolutely nothing from it mechanically, chances are I can play an exact copy of the game somewhere else. Casual players don't want to learn anything new, they want to play the same game presented in a different format, till the end of time. I expect to be bad at something in this game, and I will overcome it, because I'm not a quitter and I want to be challenged. Will a casual player?

3) "WHAA! I have responsibility's now!" And so your new job/family/situation should effect the outcome of a game enjoyed by a potential million +/- player game? I'm sorry you don't have as much time on your hands as you used to, but frankly that's just a "not my problem" moment. It's also a really stupid argument, because If you don't have time to do basic "casual" things like leveling or grinding, I don't want you in my raid group, because if I give you gear I'll never see you again.

4) When a new game comes out, the casuals leave, and all the shitty choices made for their sake stick around.

Do I want people to not play because they are casual? Of course not. Do I mind lowering the skill floor if it doesn't forsake the nature of the game? Of course not. Do I think that these players should have a dramatic impact upon a game that they play 1 hour a day for 1 month and then quit?
Of. Course. Not.

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Comments

Marzzo

Your points are good! But there is a limit. The game can't be infinitely hardcore either, so we need to find a balance.

Some casual stuff i think would be good for the game are:

1. We don't need extremly long, large and complex rotations for most classes.
2. There is nothing wrong with a class that is a little bit easier to also be good.
3. Some level of catch up mechanic is necessary for new players to join 6-12 months down the line.
4. Vertical progression, does not need to be everything.
5. It is entirely possible to make a game that is fun for the 5,10,20,40,80-hours a week players.

AidanKD

I think I am mostly on the frame of mind as @Marzzo. Though I will hit your points;

- I don't think ashes should remove any features. And I don't think will either. It's more likely they will modify/balance something to be in its best form (we would hope).

- I don't think you can just say that casual players don't want to learn anything new. What's your definition of a casual player for the sake of the people you are targeting? Is it just people who have less time to play? Or people that aren't out to min/max? The game should be challenging and whether you have 5 hours or 50 hours a week, it would just be a case that having less time means you will need more time to reach the levels of your longer-playtime peers. I am pretty sure that Steven is pretty firm when it comes to the design of the game, especially given that it is self published.

- I don't get your point #3. It's not something I have really seen in the community so I don't know what your concern here is.

- Every new game release has a huge initial boom and a sharp drop until it stabilises, so I guess that's normal?

If your only issue is that you don't want the game developers to compromise on the core qualities of the game - then I don't think you have anything to worry about.

There is one main thread in these forums anyway which was created to discuss reducing the power gap between "casuals" and people with more time, but I don't think that the representation of "casual supporters" is nearly as high as you think.

As someone who would probably fit your definition of casual, I support some of your sentiment and want the game to retain its challenge and I don't expect to be hitting elite content - but you also need to curb some of your elitism which is bleeding through your post with a lot of your bitterness towards "casuals".

Vissox

AidanKD wrote: »

As someone who would probably fit your definition of casual, I support some of your sentiment and want the game to retain its challenge and I don't expect to be hitting elite content - but you also need to curb some of your elitism which is bleeding through your post with a lot of your bitterness towards "casuals".

I'm not bitter towards casuals perse (except towards certain entitled attitudes that I reference in my 3rd point) , I'm bitter towards people who consider the uneducated/uninformed feedback that these types of players give as gospel based on slight majority over good design. Whether I like it or not, MMOs NEED casuals to thrive, but based on what I have read from others, I see myself in stark contrast in thinking that systems and mechanics meant to preserve them should not exist, because they almost always come at a price to gameplay.
For example, I have seen people request that dungeons should have the option to be instanced, which totally alienates PVP content in dungeons, because why would you go to a dungeon that has competition when you could just turn it off and focus on clearing?

I do agree like I said in my venting post that low skill floor classes have their place in any game, but I think any percentage of effort I apply should be visible in gameplay in some way if I were to play a "less easy" class.

More off topic: I'm not sure if the elitist comment was a jab, but I do embrace it. Elitism is a checks and balances system to me, lacking it I think society falls into a mediocre state where everything is fake and fine, too much and it becomes unbearably bureaucratic. I probably was a bit on the extreme side I'll admit, unfortunately it's where I innately lean.

Caww

People should play the games they like and pass on the ones they don't think they will like or.... just take a chance and maybe be surprised.

AidanKD

@Vissox I think it's good that you acknowledge "causal" players being an essential piece of MMOs. I think that on the surface if a game is enjoyable and designed well, then it doesn't need targeted features for people with less time. There will be a power gap and that's fine. If they are ganking you and not being penalised, then the corruption system isn't doing its job, so lets hope Intrepid nail that.

Re; my comment on Elitism, I wouldn't say it was a jab as much as it was just my interpretation. I think that I would probably share alot of the "morales" of an elitist but the vocal side in terms of how it's delivered is probably where I draw the line! I think it's okay for people to have opinions and preferences, but a lot of your issues rather than targeting the design - not to say you didn't target design, but your motivation on this topic *was* with a good amount of fixation on casuals.

It's only my interpretation and it might mean nothing but just to clear up my choice of words!

Happymeal2415

Marzzo wrote: »

Your points are good! But there is a limit. The game can't be infinitely hardcore either, so we need to find a balance.

Some casual stuff i think would be good for the game are:

1. We don't need extremly long, large and complex rotations for most classes.
2. There is nothing wrong with a class that is a little bit easier to also be good.
3. Some level of catch up mechanic is necessary for new players to join 6-12 months down the line.
4. Vertical progression, does not need to be everything.
5. It is entirely possible to make a game that is fun for the 5,10,20,40,80-hours a week players.

I agree with most of your points except 3. Catch up mechanics are terrible.

darthaden

Nothing wrong with casual content but as Steven has said multiple time risk vs reward. If you only do casual solo friendly pve content you'll never reach the same level of power as a hardcore raider who jumps into pvp.

The vast majority of players have a full time job. There has to be solo friendly content for those players. By the time they get home from work, get their real world responsibilities taken care of, and log on they won't always have the time to find a group to run challenging content. If the game ignored these players it would die a fast death.

Personally I fall kind of in the middle. I have a full time job, sometimes working up to 12 hours a day but I'm single with no kids so I have no real responsibilities. If I just work a standard 8 hour shift I can usually make time to play 4+ hours a night if I'm in the mood to play and then as long as I want on weekends. On those 12 hour work days though it'll be nice to be able to just log on and solo quest/gather/farm mobs for a hour or so before going to bed.

darthaden

Happymeal2415 wrote: »

Marzzo wrote: »

Your points are good! But there is a limit. The game can't be infinitely hardcore either, so we need to find a balance.

Some casual stuff i think would be good for the game are:

1. We don't need extremly long, large and complex rotations for most classes.
2. There is nothing wrong with a class that is a little bit easier to also be good.
3. Some level of catch up mechanic is necessary for new players to join 6-12 months down the line.
4. Vertical progression, does not need to be everything.
5. It is entirely possible to make a game that is fun for the 5,10,20,40,80-hours a week players.

I agree with most of your points except 3. Catch up mechanics are terrible.

In a game with PVP if they don't have sometype of catchup mechanics new players wont stick around. Why bother even trying to play if you start 2 years after launch if there's no chance of catching up? If Steven sticks to the plan of gear not being soulbound the game already will have catchup mechanics built in right there though. when flashy new item level gear comes out the slightly lower item level gear will become obsolete and become affordable for newer and more casual players. the point of catchup mechanics isn't to get newer players on the same level but to put them in a position of possibly being competitive in a few months with effort instead of a few years.

JustVine

There are two types of casuals. Casual in play and Casual in time.

Casual in time people are as dedicated to the game as you are they just don't have the privilege or value things like family and non-mmo friends. These people's opinion and place in the world should definitely be thoroughly considered and made enjoyable just as much as 'people with a lot of time's place in the world' should be. You see those threads come up relative to this type of casual because a PvP game with gear progression will ultimately make life for such people (as well as people new to a server) difficult without good design to keep things enjoyable for them.

Casual in play people are the ones you are actually 'upset' about in your post, but you seem to be bunching the two types of players together. Casual in time players do not usually want the game to be made easy for them. They just want the game to still be fun even if they have 'fallen behind due to time requirements'. A game with open world PvP presents a unique challenge to that. So obviously it will be a continued topic of discussion.

They are not 'the general masses' or casual in play style players which is what you seem to really be railing on here. Yes we get it you want the game to stay hard and fun for people at the top and basically NO casual in time player will ask for the game to be easier for you so that their game can stay fun. If you want to rail on both types of casual equally, I guess whatever people's response to you will say a lot about the state of the current community.

Happymeal2415

darthaden wrote: »

Happymeal2415 wrote: »

Marzzo wrote: »

Your points are good! But there is a limit. The game can't be infinitely hardcore either, so we need to find a balance.

Some casual stuff i think would be good for the game are:

1. We don't need extremly long, large and complex rotations for most classes.
2. There is nothing wrong with a class that is a little bit easier to also be good.
3. Some level of catch up mechanic is necessary for new players to join 6-12 months down the line.
4. Vertical progression, does not need to be everything.
5. It is entirely possible to make a game that is fun for the 5,10,20,40,80-hours a week players.

I agree with most of your points except 3. Catch up mechanics are terrible.

In a game with PVP if they don't have sometype of catchup mechanics new players wont stick around. Why bother even trying to play if you start 2 years after launch if there's no chance of catching up? If Steven sticks to the plan of gear not being soulbound the game already will have catchup mechanics built in right there though. when flashy new item level gear comes out the slightly lower item level gear will become obsolete and become affordable for newer and more casual players. the point of catchup mechanics isn't to get newer players on the same level but to put them in a position of possibly being competitive in a few months with effort instead of a few years.

Catch up mechanics create a mass of people who don't know how to play. They're only around because games like WoW release an expansion and negate the content previously therefore the actual game is the new expansion so they catch people up. In ashes each servers new content comes from node fluctuation. You need people hitting the lower level content to build up lower level nodes. I think it's a ridiculous take to think that everyone is just not going to play because they have to grind. Which btw intrepid has said this game is being built to the grindier side of the scale.

AidanKD

Otr wrote: »

Will the game have also an initial entry cost, beside the monthly subscription?

Just a monthly sub! No box cost.

Marcet

Big part of building loyalty with a game is how it educates you.
You invest time to learn and in exchange you get a great game and a deeper experience. Subconsciously, you respect something that takes the time to teach you, and despise easy things thrown at you just so you stay.
That's the reason why catering to casuals kills the interest.

"I paid my monthly 15$ so I should only have fun and win"

No.

Marcet

Even if I was a dad playing 5 hours a week, I would lose interest if the game caters to ME. It's humiliating, that the game has to stoop down to your height, instead of challenging you.

Dygz

I think it's just the one "Protect The Casuals" post that keeps getting necroed.

Tyranthraxus

/StongAgree with this thread.

There are certainly bound to be some activities that will be suitable/enjoyable to casuals - but the rest of the game shouldn't be dumbed-down nor lesser-engineered, specifically to suit them.

Am very much hoping to "no-life" Ashes when it comes out. I don't wanna find out only a couple hours into different activities that those couple of hours are purposefully the limit, out of fear that casuals will be put off by deeper, more-meaningful content.

Karthos

What people seem to fail to understand is that you ask 10 people what a "casual gamer" is and you will get 10 different answers. I would consider myself a casual player because I don't log in and raid every week, but I still play 6-8hrs a day, which would be "hardcore" for someone who only plays 4hrs a week and never raids.

The game should be made "for players" and let the community decide what they are going to do. We don't need to make special tasks or activities specifically for certain groups. You just make a bunch of content and let the players decide where to spend their time/resources.

If you choose to blow through all the content by doing 16 lines of cocaine and staying up for 2 weeks playing the game, that's your business, and I also don't think we should cater the game to you either.

Just make the game for players with a wide variety of content for a variety of players, And let them sort themselves out.

Dygz

Well, designers actually do have to design content for different types of players.
One bra size does not fit all.

Ramirez

You know what you are doing when protecting casuals? Protecting Bots to, Lost ark and new world, are good example of that.

Open world content without any challenge + catchup features + almost every content soloable, first step for bots to have a safe life in your mmorpg, and reproduce like rabbits

Sweatycup

I think the issue is more people like things RIGHT NOW! Even casuals which i will define as people who either do not play enough to ever join a top guild because of gear score, only play sparingly or simply won't be able to play the full seasons for crafting/gathering and misses some. I'm sure you've noticed the increasing p2w games for people and it's a NOW thing. If bob works for 7 days a week and john only works 3 days a week, they both work the same job, obviously bob is going to make more. It's no different. Now i'm not saying there isnt a system that could be built in a game that can properly level out that playing field, i just don't know of one. However there should be ways for guilds to offer hand-me downs and such as typical. Just never expect all guilds to care about people who are only on once a week or for only a hour or two every day or so. It just means casuals will have to wait longer to produce the same equivalency. Why? They want it NOW! Dopamine overload! If your trying to play this game as a casual and plan to race to top level and gear score, this mmo is not for you. Then again prolly all if not most mmo's are not for you. If we just level the playing field for people who play less the rewards from playing a MMO the same as the person who is playing 60 hours a week, yeah kinda breaks the point of a game and kinda becomes a sandbox. I consider myself a casual however i am not a Now kinda guy. Real Life has rules so does Ashes when it comes to quality of life.

VmanGman

This post is really dramatic. There has been one "protect the casuals" post and it was not asking for any of the things that seem to make you so angry.

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