I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

I haven't played it yet, so I'm not drawing any sort of line yet. But steven asked for feedback about if we are going in a positive direction, and I'm just gonna say that every action combat korean type mmo I've ever played I have absolutely hated. I am tab target 100%, I think action combat only works from an overhead 3rd person perspective like diablo or league of legends or lost ark. I don't want to aim my ability's honestly, If I use a sword and get animation locked, and at the same time I'm required to dodge some kind of skill shot. I'm not gonna be happy. If I miss a spell as a spell caster because my mouse was 4 pixels off, same thing. Tab targeting let's me focus on what I think matters.

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Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

If you can't tell BDO classes apart you have not played the game at all, so why are you talking about bdo if you don't understand it when people are telling you that is not the case? Clearly the people that have played the game on a higher level would know better.
1. If its clunky to you, you never played the game to learn it
2. You can clearly see in videos people can move and attack, they have movements with their attacks and are not standing still all day. Which can also vary class to class.

Funny seeing this kind of argument after several people super deep into tab games have told you that they felt that combat in those games felt fluid. You haven't played those games as much as those people, yet you yell about it not being fluid just because you've watched a few videos on them.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

If you can't tell BDO classes apart you have not played the game at all, so why are you talking about bdo if you don't understand it when people are telling you that is not the case? Clearly the people that have played the game on a higher level would know better.
1. If its clunky to you, you never played the game to learn it
2. You can clearly see in videos people can move and attack, they have movements with their attacks and are not standing still all day. Which can also vary class to class.

Funny seeing this kind of argument after several people super deep into tab games have told you that they felt that combat in those games felt fluid. You haven't played those games as much as those people, yet you yell about it not being fluid just because you've watched a few videos on them.

I've played them, not watch videos lmao

Mag7spy

I've already went though my list of tab games I've played, not really need to keep repeating it. Also have made points on the systems with global cooldowns and you can see in videos as well. So its a mix of experience and videos to help show it and its pretty clear as day if you look and see how the combat flows.

Mag7spy

This is flow, using 3 moves together and they seamlessly flow and chain together without a issue like butter. Not move stop global cooldown move stop global cooldown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsEg1Dg9ndQ

Mag7spy

Wish this guy was a higher level but its still fine you can see the cooldown bar going off, its staggering the moves so he can't spam them all at once as systems in tab are different then combat. And staggered with a global cool down so its like starting a car, stopping, starting a car and stopping again. Not as bad as even older mmorps but its still not smooth with flow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yp0ijP1T3g

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

What about throne and liberty?

Waiting to see what they show. If it's f2p and available to me - definitely gonna at least try it. I'm 99% sure it's gonna be a p2w piece of shit, even if the game itself is semi-decent, so if it costs money - I ain't supporting that shit. It was supposed to be L3 back in the day (along with several other games) so I hope they manage to have a good game, but I really don't trust NCsoft to make a well-balanced non-p2w game.

Current information indicates the P2W element will be low, but that's just 'promises to make sure it's fair'.

Other clearer information around it however does indicate there are structures implied where it won't be 'direct' P2W in any real way

Mag7spy wrote: »

Wish this guy was a higher level but its still fine you can see the cooldown bar going off, its staggering the moves so he can't spam them all at once as systems in tab are different then combat. And staggered with a global cool down so its like starting a car, stopping, starting a car and stopping again. Not as bad as even older mmorps but its still not smooth with flow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yp0ijP1T3g

So, if a Tab game doesn't have Global Cooldown, is it fine?

iccer

Mag7spy wrote: »

This is flow, using 3 moves together and they seamlessly flow and chain together without a issue like butter. Not move stop global cooldown move stop global cooldown.

Way too over the top, ADHD infused, hack and slash gameplay. Probably would get tired of it after 1h of playing.

I'll take my tab-target games, tyvm.

No but seriously, not all games have long GCDs that prevent you from using one skill after another. Some games allow you to precast abilities, most of them chain one ability after another when you press two abilities one after another... You are generalizing a lot.

Combos are possible in tab-targeting games as well just fyi.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

What about throne and liberty?

Waiting to see what they show. If it's f2p and available to me - definitely gonna at least try it. I'm 99% sure it's gonna be a p2w piece of shit, even if the game itself is semi-decent, so if it costs money - I ain't supporting that shit. It was supposed to be L3 back in the day (along with several other games) so I hope they manage to have a good game, but I really don't trust NCsoft to make a well-balanced non-p2w game.

Current information indicates the P2W element will be low, but that's just 'promises to make sure it's fair'.

Other clearer information around it however does indicate there are structures implied where it won't be 'direct' P2W in any real way

Mag7spy wrote: »

Wish this guy was a higher level but its still fine you can see the cooldown bar going off, its staggering the moves so he can't spam them all at once as systems in tab are different then combat. And staggered with a global cool down so its like starting a car, stopping, starting a car and stopping again. Not as bad as even older mmorps but its still not smooth with flow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yp0ijP1T3g

So, if a Tab game doesn't have Global Cooldown, is it fine?

If tab doesn't have global cooldown it break because its designed differently. Action combat is more about the movements being the timeframe between your next attack, and then being able to use other skills that flow or cancel it so you aren't able to spam everything instantly.

In theory if you removed cooldown bars and the character has to do a full animation and you could use your next skill after and there was no global cooldowns perhaps that would be a start for tab target. Where you could be like this game does have a flow to actually talk about with it. Some traits AA did have I believe when you transformed into the demon form as that felt a bit more hybrid to me though still more on tab target side.

So short form no global cooldown would be a step in the right direction in having that kind of discussion if it has good flow to it.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

What about throne and liberty?

Waiting to see what they show. If it's f2p and available to me - definitely gonna at least try it. I'm 99% sure it's gonna be a p2w piece of shit, even if the game itself is semi-decent, so if it costs money - I ain't supporting that shit. It was supposed to be L3 back in the day (along with several other games) so I hope they manage to have a good game, but I really don't trust NCsoft to make a well-balanced non-p2w game.

Current information indicates the P2W element will be low, but that's just 'promises to make sure it's fair'.

Other clearer information around it however does indicate there are structures implied where it won't be 'direct' P2W in any real way

Mag7spy wrote: »

Wish this guy was a higher level but its still fine you can see the cooldown bar going off, its staggering the moves so he can't spam them all at once as systems in tab are different then combat. And staggered with a global cool down so its like starting a car, stopping, starting a car and stopping again. Not as bad as even older mmorps but its still not smooth with flow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yp0ijP1T3g

So, if a Tab game doesn't have Global Cooldown, is it fine?

If tab doesn't have global cooldown it break because its designed differently. Action combat is more about the movements being the timeframe between your next attack, and then being able to use other skills that flow or cancel it so you aren't able to spam everything instantly.

In theory if you removed cooldown bars and the character has to do a full animation and you could use your next skill after and there was no global cooldowns perhaps that would be a start for tab target. Where you could be like this game does have a flow to actually talk about with it. Some traits AA did have I believe when you transformed into the demon form as that felt a bit more hybrid to me though still more on tab target side.

So short form no global cooldown would be a step in the right direction in having that kind of discussion if it has good flow to it.

So... 'Tab Games without GCD are broken by design'?

Hm... no, you clarified... 'If you have to do a full animation'...

I'm just learning new things here, I didn't really play a lot of those 'You hit the button and your stuff works regardless of anything else with no animation requirement' games.

Thanks for that.

Mag7spy

iccer wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

This is flow, using 3 moves together and they seamlessly flow and chain together without a issue like butter. Not move stop global cooldown move stop global cooldown.

Way too over the top, ADHD infused, hack and slash gameplay. Probably would get tired of it after 1h of playing.

I'll take my tab-target games, tyvm.

No but seriously, not all games have long GCDs that prevent you from using one skill after another. Some games allow you to precast abilities, most of them chain one ability after another when you press two abilities one after another... You are generalizing a lot.

Combos are possible in tab-targeting games as well just fyi.

That is not hack and slash that is just combat with flow to it. It is simply a person using 3 skills that mesh together well and you can feel the weight, speed and power of the moves. Compared to the rift video where the person is using like 3 moves but they pretty much feel like the same thing.

I'm well aware of some skills can be used off global cooldown, that is in a lot of mmorpgs where you get some counter skills and such, but that isn't really flow. If I use a skill, and then I have a counter move i can do, and my global cooldown skill is back up. I can press both keys quickly and do both attacks pretty much instantly.

Mag7spy

Action combat doesn't need to be as fast as BDO, simply just using that as an example of the skills flowing and feeling well together, there is nothing clunky there.

I know when BDO feels clunky is when you are on a new class or new to the game and don't know what to do as inputs are pretty important. Things you see in bdo are not as hard as you might think tod oit on a more basic level and have a bit of flow when you are doing pve. Though pvp is on the more extreme side of hard as you have to worry about a lot of mechs to be efficient else someone can farm you.

Mag7spy

It is like the same 5-10 people though, most people aren't really concerned about tab target.

iccer

Mag7spy wrote: »

That is not hack and slash that is just combat with flow to it. It is simply a person using 3 skills that mesh together well and you can feel the weight, speed and power of the moves. Compared to the rift video where the person is using like 3 moves but they pretty much feel like the same thing.

I'm well aware of some skills can be used off global cooldown, that is in a lot of mmorpgs where you get some counter skills and such, but that isn't really flow. If I use a skill, and then I have a counter move i can do, and my global cooldown skill is back up. I can press both keys quickly and do both attacks pretty much instantly.

But see here's the issue, to me in that BDO video it also looks like 3 moves that feel like the same thing. In Rift it's 3 simple projectiles vs 3 large overly flashy AoEs in BDO.

Also the character is lvl 15 in that Rift video, so it's not a great representation of the combat.

iccer

Mag7spy wrote: »

It is like the same 5-10 people though, most people aren't really concerned about tab target.

It seems like you are though, as you keep replying to every comment.

CROW3

Mag7spy wrote: »

If tab doesn't have global cooldown it break because its designed differently. Action combat is more about the movements being the timeframe between your next attack, and then being able to use other skills that flow or cancel it so you aren't able to spam everything instantly.

Uhm... no. The GCD can be completely decoupled from the tab v. action debate. At some point it's ok just to prefer action over tab and let it go instead of overstating non-facts to help you 'win.' Not every opinion needs to be a supreme court case.

Mag7spy

iccer wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

It is like the same 5-10 people though, most people aren't really concerned about tab target.

It seems like you are though, as you keep replying to every comment.

The three piece combo did not look like the same move over and over did you watch the video? Dark froward attack, circular attack and into a heavy jump slam attack. All with their own mix of motions.... Lets try another video lvl 30 and his moves don't feel different they feel all kind of the same. Movement helps a lot in making more of a impact on the feeling of your skills and flow of combat and not something that is normal to tab target.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMvRMmjet5A

If i hear someone say something i feel is wrong like action can't do larger scale tab ya ill reply that is just how I am. You are missing the point though, they see the thread is up here and plenty of people could easily say if they dont like he direction and want it to be more tab focused and could voice their thoughts here as well. But its the same 5-10 people that prefer action, tab or both with a argument.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

I've played them, not watch videos lmao

You've played hundreds and thousands of hours of EQ2/L2/FF11? I don't remember you ever mentioning that. You keep complaining about gcds slowing down combat and making it way less fluid, yet L2 didn't have a single shred of gcd and literally worked like an action game: you're locked in an animation of an ability; you can cancel out of that animation any time you want and cast smth else immediately. I dunno how EQ2 or FF11 were cause I haven't played them, but I trust Noaani and Azherae if they say it felt fluid to them (though I don't remember if Azherae said that FF11 was super fluid).

You generalizing all tab games is the same as me looking at NW's combat and saying "holy fuck all action games are trash and boring and limited".

Mag7spy

You realize there are other mmorpgs beside those ones? I've mentioned multiple times I've played a lot of mmorpgs and have "thousands" of hours on tab target mmorpgs.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I've played them, not watch videos lmao

You've played hundreds and thousands of hours of EQ2/L2/FF11? I don't remember you ever mentioning that. You keep complaining about gcds slowing down combat and making it way less fluid, yet L2 didn't have a single shred of gcd and literally worked like an action game: you're locked in an animation of an ability; you can cancel out of that animation any time you want and cast smth else immediately. I dunno how EQ2 or FF11 were cause I haven't played them, but I trust Noaani and Azherae if they say it felt fluid to them (though I don't remember if Azherae said that FF11 was super fluid).

You generalizing all tab games is the same as me looking at NW's combat and saying "holy fuck all action games are trash and boring and limited".

You can see a lot of times when i post a video reference it has been to EQ2. I played shadowbane over L2.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

You realize there are other mmorpgs beside those ones? I've mentioned multiple times I've played a lot of mmorpgs and have "thousands" of hours on tab target mmorpgs.

"I have played bad tab target MMOs and I don't want Ashes to be like that."

"That's great, I have played good tab target MMOs and I don't want Ashes to be like the bad ones either."

Have you tried 'assuming that the people who like Tab Target ones have played the good ones'?

Not saying it's definitely true, but it might help to have productive discussion if you start there instead.

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