How to give Action Fans Active Blocking without Breaking Waterfall Stat Blocking

We had a very in-depth discussion today on the Discord about how to give action fans active blocking without breaking passive (waterfall or tab) blocking.

Keep in mind this discussion is on shield use, not tanks using shields.

1: Active Blocking should give you a flat damage reduction on incoming damage. This damage would be based on the shield type/size/quality. So a small round shield might reduce 100 points of damage on every attack coming in, and a tower shield might reduce 500 points of damage on every attack coming in.

There is alternative variant to this where you could have active blocking give 100% damage reduction up to the set threshold/exhaustion level (see #3)

2: Even while active blocking your passive blocking can still trigger for whatever percentage passive blocking gives to damage reduction. So if you have a block rating of 30% then 30% of the time you'd block the attack, regardless of if you are active blocking or not. This would then give whatever damage reduction you give on blocks (100% or less as designed)

3: Instead of creating an exhaustion bar or a stamina bar for blocking, the "exhaustion" bar is a set amount of damage that shield can take in any one gulp. So you can hide behind your buckler for 1000 damage or your tower shield for 3000. After that damage is capped your ability to go into your active blocking stance goes on cooldown and your shield drops and you can no longer actively block (but you can still passively/waterfall block). Smaller shields recharge this HP pool faster than bigger shields.

4: The shield itself has a set amount of HP (can be in the hundreds of thousands of HP) but it has to be repaired. The more you block, the more HP damage the shield takes.

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Comments

AidanKD

Happy with a system that can accommodate the waterfall system and active block side by side. Good way to differentiate between the "block" we saw in the video yesterday and the shield use we will eventually see which ought to have a good balance between its defensive capabilities for the damage trade off.

NishUK

Loved BDO blocking and their stamina system generically existing in skills/dodges/blocking for all classes.

I don't believe this unique system brings joy.

Liniker

I would love if they did it like the shield having an exhaustion bar based on a set amount of damage that the shield can take, with a (not so long) CD for using it again, this would encourage skill as for using it in the right moment, the 3rd option you described is what I hope they go for

Azherae

I don't find any of these options (other than #2 which I would just assume to be the way it works in a game where Passive Blocking exists) to be engaging or an even semi-realistic representation of 'how shields work', so I see no benefit.

Noaani

Liniker wrote: »

I would love if they did it like the shield having an exhaustion bar based on a set amount of damage that the shield can take, with a (not so long) CD for using it again, this would encourage skill as for using it in the right moment, the 3rd option you described is what I hope they go for

This sounds like tab target blocking, tbh.

I can't for the life of me remember which game it was (I think it was a random Russian MMO I played for a few months, many years ago), but the game had a durability on shields that wore down as you blocked, and tanks had a block ability on a 15 or so second cooldown.

Solvryn

To add to this:

Velocity should be added to the ranged weapons in the same effective weight is added to the melee weapons. So a bow may be faster to reload, but its velocity is less than the crossbow bolts. A crossbow may be slower to reload, but the bolt velocity is higher than that of an arrow.

The weight system needs to be thorough, so parry for non-shields which just means parry then have an action afterwards whether it be a counter attack or a manuever within a fight sequence.

Thank you all who were an involved in the conversation on discord and thanks Jahlon for making this thread.

Please posters, dont derail the thread its meant for weapons as it was on discord.

Azherae

Solvryn wrote: »

To add to this:

Velocity should be added to the ranged weapons in the same effective weight is added to the melee weapons. So a bow may be faster to reload, but its velocity is less than the crossbow bolts. A crossbow may be slower to reload, but the bolt velocity is higher than that of an arrow.

The weight system needs to be thorough, so parry for non-shields which just means parry then have an action afterwards whether it be a counter attack or a manuever within a fight sequence.

Thank you all who were an involved in the conversation on discord and thanks Jahlon for making this thread.

Please posters, dont derail the thread its meant for weapons as it was on discord.

So, wait, is the thread about 'blocking with shields', about 'blocking with weapons', or about 'weight'?

Dygz

I have a feeling that Active Block will not be limited to Shields.
I expect other weapons will also use Active Block.

AidanKD

So the discussion stemmed in part on the fact that we saw block in game with a weapon, but a shield will exist and parry ought to exist for weapons, while Shields exist as the pure defensive weapon by forgoing damage.

Just because they showcased blocking with a sword, this is really about what we could do differently.

The shield could have a bar, but the idea behind the "durability" will work similar to stamina, but vary based on the shield type i.e big shield take more hits. Make the blocking a bit more active style but balancing it so as well.

Night Wings

I personally hate games with stamina blocking I feel like if I'm going to waste that much stamina I might as well try to dodge it instead... That being said I much rather have a durability on a shield that reduces X amount
of on coming damage (not all damage) and then eventually breaks where you got to repair it.

I feel the amount of the damage being reduce should be base on the quality of shield

Item rarities in Ashes of Creation.
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Common.[37]
Uncommon.[38]
Rare.[39]
Epic.[40]
Legendary.[41]

Also with adding an specific enchant that will allow it to
Dmg the attacker ( obviously not much)
Strengthen the durability of the shield so its harder to break, but take more on coming dmg
Reduce more of incoming dmg, but makes the shield less durable

Developer would have to find a balance other wise I can totally see every pvp guy carrying a shield because its meta.

just my 2 cents though.

AidanKD

I think part of the idea is also that this would not be a choice of block or dodge. Block is its own mechanic exclusively for shield and dashes will be class abilities.

Noaani

So, thinking about the system described in the OP, the only issue I have with it is that it still requires all tanks to use a fairly decent amount of active defense..

What I would personally like to see (note; like to see, not expect to see), is a system where armor, weapons and shields all have passive defensive stats on them, but also have active defensive stats. The bigger and bulkier the gear you are wearing, the more passive defense you have. The lighter your gear, the more active defense you have. This would apply to both dodge and block - and potentially parry and riposte as well (parry is blocking with a weapon btw - and a riposte is the first attack you make after a parry).

What this would mean is that each player can kind of set their own limit for how much of their defense is active, and how much is passive. If you have a lighter weapon (rapier, as an example) and a small shield (buckler, perhaps), and are in fairly light armor (leather, chain, what ever), then you probably have average at best passive defense, but your active defense is on point. This makes a little sense to me, as you have a reasonable range of movement with that gear.

On the other hand, if you are in full plate, with a tower shield, your active defenses would be less viable, but your passive would be much higher.

In terms of how to make a stat affect an active defense like dodge, block, parry or riposte, rather than making block a stance you activate where you hide behind your shield, you make it so that these defensive actions are used in direct relation to an offensive action - and the amount of damage reduced is based on the timing of your defensive action in relation to the moment where the offensive action you are blocking would make contact. One block is able to block exactly one attack - if timed right.

Then you make it so the stats on the gear to increase/decrease your active defensive abilities relate to the speed at which an active defense is activated. In lighter gear, this could be instant, but in heavier gear it could take a second or more (being effectively worthless for all but the biggest, slowest attacks).

A good player may well be able to block or dodge most - or all - attacks from a less skilled player, but this is a good thing. However, while they are using active defense, they are unable to attack (which brings up the value of parry and riposte being in the mix).

Solvryn

Azherae wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

To add to this:

Velocity should be added to the ranged weapons in the same effective weight is added to the melee weapons. So a bow may be faster to reload, but its velocity is less than the crossbow bolts. A crossbow may be slower to reload, but the bolt velocity is higher than that of an arrow.

The weight system needs to be thorough, so parry for non-shields which just means parry then have an action afterwards whether it be a counter attack or a manuever within a fight sequence.

Thank you all who were an involved in the conversation on discord and thanks Jahlon for making this thread.

Please posters, dont derail the thread its meant for weapons as it was on discord.

So, wait, is the thread about 'blocking with shields', about 'blocking with weapons', or about 'weight'?

The conversation stemmed from some of us (I’m vocal about it) thinking that blocking with daggers doesn’t make sense in their weighted feel philosophy.

Daggers should have active parry, no block.

Shields should have block.

But it all ties into their weighted feel philosophy and it being thorough in their weapons portions of the combat system.

Enigmatic Sage

In my opinion for active blocking, it should either be resource based to prevent people from abusing the mechanic or at very least add in a stagger/shield breaker mechanic so you can only block so much before the stagger takes affect regardless of % damage blocked.

Blocking should be relatively direction based by which way your character is facing for the block. If someone attacks from behind and you can block it, that just seems like an odd choice for design.

With what was currently said in the recent video with how directional movement affects your attack animation, blocking could and should be no different other than the side of the body and item used for blocking. By this i refer to shield block vs weapon block. There is some variables involved which suggest choosing a hand for where you want your shield to go (assuming one uses a shield over a weapon).

So there is a few situations that are based on character choice, blocking % dmg reduction with a weapon vs blocking with a shield and the effect of resource consumed as well stagger mechanic if implemented. It doesn't have to be a CC effect where the user of the block is at a huge disadvantage for X amount of time but they could take a penalty elsewhere preventing the abuse of the mechanic while allowing them to continue useful contributions to combat without being temporarily incapacitated.

Ottobot

Not sure what the issue is with full action combat blocking. Putting damage mitigation in the hands of an rng stat seems lazy and boring. Since when is actually playing the game a problem?

Noaani

Ottobot wrote: »

Putting damage mitigation in the hands of an rng stat seems lazy and boring.

Spoken like someone that truly has no idea of how tab target games work at all.

Enigmatic Sage

Even with active blocking mechanics, there could still be abilities that enhance these features to adjust mitigation and resources used temporarily and situationally. I definitely prefer active blocking over attribute and stat dependencies it gives players more control over their character and choices opposed to relying more heavily on stats and RNG reactive blocking/parrying.

I wonder if they'll give key bind options for press and hold vs toggle

Noaani

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Even with active blocking mechanics, there could still be abilities that enhance these features to adjust mitigation and resources used temporarily and situationally. I definitely prefer active blocking of attribute and stat dependencies it gives players more control over their character and choices opposed to relying more heavily on stats and RNG reactive blocking/parrying.

I prefer having both.

Without a doubt, gear selection and acquisition matters more with passive defense than with active, and gear acquisition is a major component of an MMORPG (arguable *the* major component).

As such, I am almost always against anything that lessens the value and impact of it.

Enigmatic Sage

Noaani wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Even with active blocking mechanics, there could still be abilities that enhance these features to adjust mitigation and resources used temporarily and situationally. I definitely prefer active blocking of attribute and stat dependencies it gives players more control over their character and choices opposed to relying more heavily on stats and RNG reactive blocking/parrying.

I prefer having both.

Without a doubt, gear selection and acquisition matters more with passive defense than with active, and gear acquisition is a major component of an MMORPG (arguable *the* major component).

As such, I am almost always against anything that lessens the value and impact of it.

When you say both? you referring to using one or the other? OR having both currently active/available at any given time?

regardless...

Going off the OP:

You can still actively block and have stats/attributes affect the blocking mechanics with additional improvement from abilities for those situations that require a bit more improvement to blocking. But I would definitely keep it a positional frontal block as being a 360 block mechanic just wouldn't feel right to me.

But I am still very much so in favour of a stagger/shield breaker mechanic to help reduce how much someone can block regardless of class and items used.

I just hope the studio doesn't go down the path of burst damage and burst healing so that defensive feature can stay relevant before becoming a game of cat and mouse with pvp balancing. I find burst dps one of the least engaging methods for combat in games like this. I'd rather combat come down to more about skill and choices rather than popping cool downs and bursting especially with the goal for large player battles but I am starting to tangentially go off a bit from the active blocking thread haha.

With how the shapes of hit boxes are, it wouldn't be that difficult (relatively speaking) to have it engaged as frontal blocking opposed to a stat based mitigation 360 coverage. It doesn't even have to be a 180, it could be less coverage than that depending on stance and positioning with implementation goals.

Noaani

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

When you say both? you referring to using one or the other? OR having both currently active/available at any given time?

Both at the same time, as I outlined in the post.

A TL:DR version would be that active blocks act similar to attacks in that they are activated by a player, any will block the first melee attack that happens in about a 0.5 second time frame. From there, you can gear up to make your active block either better or worse, but the trade off will always be your passive defense. This lets players pick between better active defense but worse passive, or better passive defense but worse active.

There is more to it, but in terms of the general idea, that is a fairly decent outline of what I'd like to see.

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