Animation canceling, Dodging, weaving

Mag7spy

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SongRune

There is no animation cancelling in Ashes.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

At the moment we have contradicting information and the current info says other wise compared to the old info. But we will see as they show more combat and it gets tested.

No we do not. Again, he answered "yes" before Margaret could even finish saying animation cancelling. And from the past 2 years of watching their streams I know for damn sure that Steven has so much stuff on his mind that he doesn't respond to splitsecond questions. He's asked Margaret to repeat questions multiple times in the past because he was either looking at chat or was just deep in thought. And in that video you can see him looking to the side when she's asking him the question. And right in the middle of "animation cancelling" he says "oh absolutely" and goes on to explain plain dodging mechanics and mitigating abilities.

Your desire for this game to have animation cancelling is the same as Dygz' for it to have such harsh corruption penalties that no one ever bothers him or my desire for those penalties to be balanced in such a way that I can PK a couple people a night (at my own lvl) and being able to remove that corruption in the dungeon where I killed those people, before BHs can catch me. All of those things are just wishes for the game and we have no clue which one will be the reality. Except in Dygz and mine cases it's purely up to balancing of a few number values, while in your case it's a whole damn mechanical design direction that's gotta be built from the ground up. And right now the info we do have is "no animation cancelling"

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

At the moment we have contradicting information and the current info says other wise compared to the old info. But we will see as they show more combat and it gets tested.

No we do not. Again, he answered "yes" before Margaret could even finish saying animation cancelling. And from the past 2 years of watching their streams I know for damn sure that Steven has so much stuff on his mind that he doesn't respond to splitsecond questions. He's asked Margaret to repeat questions multiple times in the past because he was either looking at chat or was just deep in thought. And in that video you can see him looking to the side when she's asking him the question. And right in the middle of "animation cancelling" he says "oh absolutely" and goes on to explain plain dodging mechanics and mitigating abilities.

Your desire for this game to have animation cancelling is the same as Dygz for it to have such harsh corruption penalties that no one ever bothers him or my desire for those penalties to be balanced in such a way that I can PK a couple people a night (at my own lvl) and being able to remove that corruption in the dungeon where I killed those people, before BHs can catch me. All of those things are just wishes for the game and we have no clue which one will be the reality. Except in Dygz and mine cases it's purely up to balancing of a few number values, while in your case it's a whole damn mechanical design direction that's gotta be built from the ground up. And right now the info we do have is "no animation cancelling"

They also stated in the past nothing is finalized and no its really not the same. There is no reason someone can't use a dodge roll out of a skill at the start or during a skill if there is a threat. It adds a skill curve and helps with the fact some skills hold you in place making you be able to react to skills.

The comment was still yes int he video, and he could have said there isn't and reacted the same way about swords making you move slower. So we will see what happens but you can't change a answer that was given because you are against it. The most you can say is there is conflicting information with a comment from 5 years ago and the present...

And yes im 100% for animation cancelling and dodging mid out of skill that might lock you in place so you can dodge a move.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

but you can't change a answer that was given because you are against it. The most you can say is there is conflicting information with a comment from 5 years ago and the present...

Except I'm not changing the answer. I'm saying that he wasn't answering the question you wanted him to answer. But yes, we'll just have to wait till they say one way or the other.

And as for my own feedback on this point. I don't care.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

but you can't change a answer that was given because you are against it. The most you can say is there is conflicting information with a comment from 5 years ago and the present...

Except I'm not changing the answer. I'm saying that he wasn't answering the question you wanted him to answer. But yes, we'll just have to wait till they say one way or the other.

And as for my own feedback on this point. I don't care.

Well we will and its kind of a big thing in action combat, and no reason for it not to be there. Its the same way you can stop mid cast channeling by moving.

Ludullu

Another pov on the issue.
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxNPWLnfqjw67k1ar6hf9-oWgTh8CoSeH2

Mag7spy wrote: »

Well we will and its kind of a big thing in action combat, and no reason for it not to be there. Its the same way you can stop mid cast channeling by moving.

A channeling spell can be cancelled midcast because the damage output is drawn out instead of being upfront.

I probably should've asked this way earlier, but how exactly does animation cancelling in BDO work? Or, more importantly, does the damage go through at the end of the attack animation or at the start?

Cause in my experience the attack check happens at the end of the animation so cancelling the animation stops the attack completely. From what I understand from just hearing about it, ESO players used anicancel because attack check was at the start of the animation so cancelling it would prevent you from wasting time on the full animation (correct me if I'm wrong, those who have played ESO). Which one was it in BDO?

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Another pov on the issue.
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxNPWLnfqjw67k1ar6hf9-oWgTh8CoSeH2

Mag7spy wrote: »

Well we will and its kind of a big thing in action combat, and no reason for it not to be there. Its the same way you can stop mid cast channeling by moving.

A channeling spell can be cancelled midcast because the damage output is drawn out instead of being upfront.

I probably should've asked this way earlier, but how exactly does animation cancelling in BDO work? Or, more importantly, does the damage go through at the end of the attack animation or at the start?

Cause in my experience the attack check happens at the end of the animation so cancelling the animation stops the attack completely. From what I understand from just hearing about it, ESO players used anicancel because attack check was at the start of the animation so cancelling it would prevent you from wasting time on the full animation (correct me if I'm wrong, those who have played ESO). Which one was it in BDO?

BDO is a game with multihit moves, which can only be canceled at the correct times, like a fighting game.

If you cancel early, the rest of the hits don't happen.

Full Action games are a completely different style of thing than what Ashes is currently trying to be, so I suggest not drawing too many comparisons to what they do.

If we see any signs that Ashes has anything similar, we'll let people know in discussions since it will be important to consider, but for now, just assume it is MOBA style combat (Ashes) vs BDO style combat (its own thing that is familiar mostly to players of Eastern games and modern fighting games)

Mag7spy

Animation cancelling works in a few ways, in the broken way it lets you skil some animations to deal dmg faster which is not good.

In the good way you stop your skill and go into another skill, so the stopped skill doesn't deal dmg. So you would use the other skill or cancel the animation by dodge.

Edit
Which helps since you can stop a long animation so you can react to something else. Its not something you should be able to spam every second though as everything has cooldowns.

George_Black

The only good way is this, cancel first actions animation and output in order to perform a dodge or block. Anything else will result in glitchy combat, with very few viables builds, the ones that benefit from normal attacks and non-channeling abilities.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Which helps since you can stop a long animation so you can react to something else. Its not something you should be able to spam every second though as everything has cooldowns.

And as much as I understand your overall point, I disagree mainly because, to me, using a long cast perfectly is as skillful as dodging an incoming attack after cancelling said long cast.

If I can maximize my damage, while minimizing damage to me, all while using 3-5 second animation abilities - I'm at such a high understanding of the game flow and my current opponent that I can perfectly predict (or setup) timeframes where I can use those long casts w/o them losing their damage value.

One skill takes twitch skills and fast reactions, the other skill takes game knowledge and people understanding. To me those are equally-valued skills. To you, obviously, twitch skills are more important. Ideally Ashes can appeal to us both, but we'll have to see.

CROW3

The /stopcasting command in WoW was useful to precede ‘oh shit’ macros and big damage attacks that required conditions (like Kill Shot). If movement cancels long casts that’s a fine work-around.

Mag7spy

Naa having both in together is the best form and you get the highest skill ceiling. Like i said before you shouldn't be able to spam dodge and use iframes forever then a new issue comes up. But if you have a dodge every set amount of time you can use it mid attack or maybe you want to save it for another point knowing someone has a strong skill they haven't used yet. Adds a lot more complexity to the fight as you still have to deal with the mechanicals and times when you aren't using your dodge.

Again there is n reason why in tab target you should be able to break out of a skill early but not action combat by using your dodge. Nor does it mean every skill you are able to use a dodge for to break out of it early either. That is part of making the game feel more fluid for example the hammer attack if you started to use that skill but they dodged and were about to attack you, or another person was about to charge you it allows you to react to it. Which is a lot more fun and skill level increase then being a sitting duck.

Mag7spy

Again if you are dodging your skill should be stopped and no more dmg given for that current skill.

Theplague4u

I always hated having to use animation canceling/weaving in ESO. I'm glad that's not going to be a combat mechanic in AOC. It looks glitchy and broken.

Solvryn

AC isn’t going to happen.

234Graph

No need to add in more of a hassle to combat with animation cancelling

Mag7spy

Skill ceiling and fluidly in combat is not a hassle. The same way you can break out of a cast time in tab target, is the same way you should be able to cancel animations into dodges at the bare minimum. Else movement for cast times should keep you still as well, which would be the opposite of being fluid.

The only reason not for animation cancelling is if you want people to be locked in animation, which in the end will feel more clunky if you don't have highs and lows of control with a character. Only reason is tab target players want an advantage against players that use action skills freely being able to cancel all their skills if cast times are involved.

falcorpix

Idk how you can make action combat without animation cancelling, it would be like having a tab-target game with only long cast skills and no way to interrupt them.

Weaving like in ESO is trash, tho.

Mag7spy

falcorpix wrote: »

Idk how you can make action combat without animation cancelling, it would be like having a tab-target game with only long cast skills and no way to interrupt them.

Weaving like in ESO is trash, tho.

1. Broken animation cancels shouldn't be included (allows your skills to do more damage)
2. You shouldn't be able to animation cancel every skill sometimes its only at the beginning
3. It shouldn't be spammed every second
4. Damage is stopped upon animation cancel of the current skill used.

falcorpix

Mag7spy wrote: »

1. Broken animation cancels shouldn't be included (allows your skills to do more damage)
2. You shouldn't be able to animation cancel every skill sometimes its only at the beginning
3. It shouldn't be spammed every second
4. Damage is stopped upon animation cancel of the current skill used.

Correct.

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