Mind Control

This thread is all about that awesome & frustrating crowd-control (cc) called Mind Control (MC). For the sake of ease, I’m going to use the 5th Edition definition of mind-control for the conversation:

You can try to control the mind of target within range. The target must make a wisdom saving throw. On a failure, you take total control over the mind of your target, making him nothing more than a mindless puppet…For the duration, the target is considered stunned, only acting under your commands.

Url: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Mind_Control_(5e_Spell)

There have been a number of MC implementations out there. Personally, my favorite is WoW because it allowed me to fling annoying opponents from high ledges.

So - what are your thoughts on mind-control? Do you want mind-control to be an available spell in Ashes? If, yes - what are the effects and limitations? What classes do you think are best fit to have MC in their kit? What happens if I MC someone who is MC’ing another player? Can I MC a corrupt player and run him toward guards? Or a bounty hunter?

What are your experiences and how do those experiences shape what you would like Ashes to implement?

I’m curious. 🤔

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PenguinPaladin

MC being a very long cast where the target has to remain in range, and literally anything interrupts it?

Id see the mage base class having it, and rouge augments changing the casting animation to be nearly silent, and similar to an idel animation.

And if its something that hard to actually manage to cast, i wouldnt mind you being able to give the mind controlled any commands you couod give a summon

CROW3

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

And if its something that hard to actually manage to cast, i wouldnt mind you being able to give the mind controlled any commands you couod give a summon

So if I MC you, I’d have access to your whole ability bar? I’d basically be able to play as you?

Can the player casting MC have access to your inventory? 🙀

PenguinPaladin

CROW3 wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

And if its something that hard to actually manage to cast, i wouldnt mind you being able to give the mind controlled any commands you couod give a summon

So if I MC you, I’d have access to your whole ability bar? I’d basically be able to play as you?

Can the player casting MC have access to your inventory? 🙀

I imagine you couldnt aim an action skill for your summons, so you probably have access to assigning my target, and telling me to use my tab targeted abilities perhaps? Or just to fire off some cones without aiming.

I doubt a summon has an inventory, so i dont think you'd be able to access my inventory.

If MC ends up in the game... seems like a pretty "deep" spell to try and incorporate tho

JustVine

I know this ability as 'charm' https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Charm_(Status_Effect)

Charm is a Light-based negative status effect that causes afflicted characters to start physically attacking whoever the monster is currently engaged in combat. Charmed players cannot access menus, use macros, or input text commands (except for chat-related commands) until the effect has worn off.

Charmed players have their pets de-spawned (although, times are not reset), and also have reduced movement speed. TP is not retained when the status effect wears off.

Players who are charmed are treated as foes and can be attacked by other players, though no experience points penalty is incurred if you are defeated while charmed.

I like this status effect a lot. It is a relatively uncommon, and has an unpredictable effect that requires a thorough set of tactical protocols, gear specing, and party composition considerations. I think it fits right in with ashes current combat design combined with their alpha 1 mob encounter design philosophy.

I am biased as a summoner though since smn and other pet classes tend to be the hard counter to this effect.

I am also biased because in the games I play with it, if everyone is charmed, nothing bad technically happens and people have easy access to reraise (albeit you rise weakened.) A game without those things would probably be really frustrating.

Bard and Summoner make great candidates for such an ability, but I would much rather it be mob/boss only.

I think it would suck as a PvP effect and require additional considerations relative to corruption as you mention. I think for the risk of exploitation of the corruption system alone that rules it out as a player ability in my eyes.

Enigmatic Sage

maybe they'll have a mind goblin ability

Dygz

Blind and Fear can be fun.
Most effective the first time it happened, decades ago.

Shouldn't give access to someone else's abilities. And shouldn't last long enough for another player to actually control someone else's avatar.

PenguinPaladin

Random i know...

One of the main reasons i want in game voice chat is for easdropping spells, and voice throwing spells........... just kinda thought it kinda fits with blinds and fears

CROW3

Dygz wrote: »

Shouldn't give access to someone else's abilities. And shouldn't last long enough for another player to actually control someone else's avatar.

So I can’t MC you and blow all your CDs? 😳
What’s an appropriate duration?

Otr wrote: »

A mini-game to escape control could be interesting with the possibility to reverse the effect and take under control the one which controls you.

Oo cool idea - probably more fun than watching your possessed toon start attacking your friends (or finding the nearest cliff). How challenging would that minigame be? E.g. are you trying to keep it rare for a player to ‘break out’ of MC before the duration expires?

CROW3

JustVine wrote: »

… I would much rather it be mob/boss only.

I think it would suck as a PvP effect and require additional considerations relative to corruption as you mention. I think for the risk of exploitation of the corruption system alone that rules it out as a player ability in my eyes.

Good thoughts, Vine. So, given the PvX nature of abilities in Ashes, how would you work player MC into the mix? For instance, let’s say you’re a powerful green, I MC you then attack and kill a brand new green. So you’re red. If I can do that before the spell ends…(big if) what if the corruption transfers entirely to me (the MC caster)?

It’s the most literal version of the Milgram experiment: ‘I was just doing what he told me.’ 😵‍💫

JustVine

CROW3 wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Shouldn't give access to someone else's abilities. And shouldn't last long enough for another player to actually control someone else's avatar.

So I can’t MC you and blow all your CDs? 😳

I think that is another reason why it does not feel so agency crushing in FFXI as well and another 'bias' I forgot to mention. I definitely think just a 'basic attack from your ally' has it's own element of threat, that can also be properly mitigate in a party situation. If the big tank is charmed, it hurts, but you probably are playing a class with better escape tools or cc options for 'not hurting your friend too much while they snap out of it'. If your mage is charmed, it probably hurts but more so because you aren't killing the mob as quickly not from the little tickles from their wand.

Dygz

CROW3 wrote: »

So I can’t MC you and blow all your CDs? 😳
What’s an appropriate duration?

I mean... you can blow me for as long as you like.

CROW3

JustVine wrote: »

I think that is another reason why it does not feel so agency crushing in FFXI as well and another 'bias' I forgot to mention. I definitely think just a 'basic attack from your ally' has it's own element of threat, that can also be properly mitigate in a party situation. If the big tank is charmed, it hurts, but you probably are playing a class with better escape tools or cc options for 'not hurting your friend too much while they snap out of it'. If your mage is charmed, it probably hurts but more so because you aren't killing the mob as quickly

I imagine that this would be very dangerous for a raid when an opposing guild MCs the main tank during a fight.

I wonder if it would be good to have some graphical link (say a golden thread) between the caster and the enslaved?

JustVine

CROW3 wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

I think that is another reason why it does not feel so agency crushing in FFXI as well and another 'bias' I forgot to mention. I definitely think just a 'basic attack from your ally' has it's own element of threat, that can also be properly mitigate in a party situation. If the big tank is charmed, it hurts, but you probably are playing a class with better escape tools or cc options for 'not hurting your friend too much while they snap out of it'. If your mage is charmed, it probably hurts but more so because you aren't killing the mob as quickly

I imagine that this would be very dangerous for a raid when an opposing guild MCs the main tank during a fight.

I wonder if it would be good to have some graphical link (say a golden thread) between the caster and the enslaved?

Visual cues should always be present for status effects in modern gaming imo. I think some of my team disagrees with me. I think not having them raises part of the skill floor without them though and charm/mc is already a high skill floor ability to need to deal with. I think I preffer parasitic mushrooms sprouted on their heads as the visual. Very jarring, obvious, lore approachable, and squicky in an immersive way.

I think there will be other ways to mess with a rival guilds tank. So I don't think mc is a must for that niche in combat.

That being said, it's still a thing you might need to deal with/can take advantage of if you are opposing a raid and it is being used by the boss. It'd be even more interesting if the charm effect favored targeting newer/not engaged people nearby to attack the those who engaged first.

Anonymous332

NO MC pls..

Enigmatic Sage

@Otr what game was that where you had to bring the two circles together. Sounds familiar, like from a boxing game or something such as fight night. Definitely more viable with joy stick controllers for that example.
Not sure if people want to do skill checks during combat though as interesting as it may be it can be quite the deterrence as well.

CROW3

Izil wrote: »

NO MC pls..

Interesting… why?

Enigmatic Sage

Otr wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

@Otr what game was that where you had to bring the two circles together. Sounds familiar, like from a boxing game or something such as fight night. Definitely more viable with joy stick controllers for that example.
Not sure if people want to do skill checks during combat though as interesting as it may be it can be quite the deterrence as well.

Sounds familiar to me too but I have no idea.
It is a basic movement when chasing spaceships in space.
I started first with the assumption that the player under control wants to reach the "exit" and the other one moves it away. Then I refined it with reduced vision and thinking that the size of those circles could change, as one steals energy from the other.

Yes, during combat might be really hard to control, unless is balanced somehow else.
Maybe a timer up to 5 seconds (with possibility to reduce it to 1 if countered) and a completely different mechanic would be better.

interesting. Usually mind controls are limited to time/duration, limited actions performed or a resource bar before it weakens connection that fills or empties based on contributing factors such as the ones mentioned.

Anonymous332

CROW3 wrote: »

Izil wrote: »

NO MC pls..

Interesting… why?

As long as its not possible against players and bosses. Against regular mobs im okay with.

JustVine

Izil wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

Izil wrote: »

NO MC pls..

Interesting… why?

As long as its not possible against players and bosses. Against regular mobs im okay with.

Do you mind if some mobs and bosses have it to use against players?

Gygax

MC has not always been a total control thing, in some games its a simple forced movement, for example you MC a player and they slowly walk towards you without a care in the world. As far as a full MC experience goes I would enjoy seeing once a MC goes off the MC'ed player is under the control of an AI acting like a mob but with the casters threat list/target list. While MC'ed the caster and target are both going thru a mini game "fighting for control" of the body, the game would get harder and harder as the time goes so eventually the MC character will be free. The MC character could just sit there and let the timer run out if they want, so could the original caster, but by playing the mini game the caster is extending the spell and the victim is trying to break it early. That way the controlled person still gets to "play" the game, nothing worse than being totally locked out of your controls for ages.

And general MC things would be, no access to inventory, chat lists, stronghold. It should impact the character not the account.

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