Freedom in combat movements VS False feeling of freedom in combat movements

While it is known that AoC will have a Hybrid combat that will give TAB and AC players the peace of mind that their styles are in the game, it does not ensure that FREEDOM of movement is assured.

What is freedom of movement?
It is not only to be able to move fluidly but to be able to use that fluidity WITH FREEDOM to generate other things.

In BDO you can move in a frenetic way but that does not mean absolute control over what your character does, it could be said that those frenetic movements are difficult to maneuver for a more strategic style.
So you could say that BDO gives a FALSE sense of freedom where movements appear to be FREE to control but in reality cannot be controlled efficiently to get the most out of them.

On the other hand lol even though LOL has limited moves it offers more freedom because with those moves you can make moves that would change the events of a battle, you can outplay your opponent by being creative BECAUSE THOSE LIMITED MOVEMENTS give you the freedom to do so in the LOL combat system.

BDO : frenetic moves that are not entirely controllable.

https://youtu.be/yMdaaiSxvO4

LOL : Safe movements that are very controllable.

https://youtu.be/oabJ7VahNlk
Who gives the feeling of more freedom in combat ?

What do I mean by these examples?

AoC as it will be a HIBRID combat must take into account that the feeling of FREEDOM in combat can be generated in different ways, it is not necessary to have a very frantic combat where you jump from one side to another without stopping, there is no freedom in something that you can not control at all, but to have SAFE movements that give the player the possibility to change the events of a battle being creative, being able to outplay your opponent BECAUSE THE COMBAT SYSTEM allows you to do so.

The freedom of movement is something that both PVP and PVE players would appreciate because they would be given the tools to be creative and that is something that in combat is a lot of fun and encourages players to be able and want to improve in their movements.

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Azherae

MybroViajero wrote: »

While it is known that AoC will have a Hybrid combat that will give TAB and AC players the peace of mind that their styles are in the game, it does not ensure that FREEDOM of movement is assured.

What is freedom of movement?
It is not only to be able to move fluidly but to be able to use that fluidity WITH FREEDOM to generate other things.

In BDO you can move in a frenetic way but that does not mean absolute control over what your character does, it could be said that those frenetic movements are difficult to maneuver for a more strategic style.
So you could say that BDO gives a FALSE sense of freedom where movements appear to be FREE to control but in reality cannot be controlled efficiently to get the most out of them.

On the other hand lol even though LOL has limited moves it offers more freedom because with those moves you can make moves that would change the events of a battle, you can outplay your opponent by being creative BECAUSE THOSE LIMITED MOVEMENTS give you the freedom to do so in the LOL combat system.

BDO : frenetic moves that are not entirely controllable.
https://youtu.be/yMdaaiSxvO4

LOL : Safe movements that are very controllable.
https://youtu.be/oabJ7VahNlk
Who gives the feeling of more freedom in combat ?

What do I mean by these examples?

AoC as it will be a HIBRID combat must take into account that the feeling of FREEDOM in combat can be generated in different ways, it is not necessary to have a very frantic combat where you jump from one side to another without stopping, there is no freedom in something that you can not control at all, but to have SAFE movements that give the player the possibility to change the events of a battle being creative, being able to overcome your opponent BECAUSE THE COMBAT SYSTEM allows you to do so.

The freedom of movement is something that both PVP and PVE players would appreciate because they would be given the tools to be creative and that is something that in combat is a lot of fun and encourages players to be able and want to improve in their movements.

I don't like the so called 'freedom of movement'.

I consider it to be low skill nonsense that removes risk from your actions.

I think balance suffers, I think player skill suffers, and I think PvE suffers, when it's available.

So I'll be on the list of 'players that don't agree with your last paragraph'.

Ludullu

I'm same as Azherae. I want to have big investment skills where I gotta think before using them, instead of just relying on my reaction speed.

Dygz

I'd have to play to know what the combat feels like, but...
I'm not a fan of BDO combat for MMORPGs.

JustVine

MybroViajero wrote: »

The freedom of movement is something that both PVP and PVE players would appreciate because they would be given the tools to be creative and that is something that in combat is a lot of fun and encourages players to be able and want to improve in their movements.

I disagree with this statement entirely. Mostly because it's wrong, but also because your argumentation in favor of it is flawed.

A goal of Ashes combat has been stated to be 'player agency'. I agree with this goal if that agency is about 'choice'. Given your above, very detailed argument, do you think it's a reasonable conclusion to believe that you favor agency over 'having to make a tradeoff'?

I want players to have a lot of freedom. But I want agency and freedom to be about 'freedom to choose'. However, the problem with freedom is that without limits, there are no 'choices'. In order for an action to be a choice there must be a trade off. For there to be a trade off, there must be inefficiencies.

This is my core disagreement and perception of why your argument is flawed. BDO's combat requires players to make choices. That is WHY their moves have some inefficiency in movement. This makes their PvP require a meaningful amount of skill. It is why in most good tab target games with good PvE you similarly do not always have complete freedom. Without having to make trade offs you simplify boss design.

A good hybrid system needs to have inefficiency in it's combat.

MybroViajero

NiKr wrote: »

I'm same as Azherae. I want to have big investment skills where I gotta think before using them, instead of just relying on my reaction speed.

Of course, that the central point is not only the reaction speed or if it is only the use of skills is a set where the freedom of movements given by the combat system encourages that.

For example, Wow has a fluid and reactive system that gives you outplay ability to other players but since it is a MMORPG with more than 17 years it feels a bit outdated but its system gives you opportunities in both movements and skills to be creative, its system gives the freedom to have flows, being reactive etc.

So I think that AOC should see that too, either in TAB you should weigh how to use the skills correctly or ACT where you must have a good reaction speed that the system of opportunity to be able to have freedom to feel the flows, freedom, The reaction and not only is it a frying movements or just movements to think but is a balance where what is the flow and freedom of the player to react to any eventuality (tab eventuality or act eventuality)

MybroViajero

JustVine wrote: »

MybroViajero wrote: »

The freedom of movement is something that both PVP and PVE players would appreciate because they would be given the tools to be creative and that is something that in combat is a lot of fun and encourages players to be able and want to improve in their movements.

I disagree with this statement entirely. Mostly because it's wrong, but also because your argumentation in favor of it is flawed.

A goal of Ashes combat has been stated to be 'player agency'. I agree with this goal if that agency is about 'choice'. Given your above, very detailed argument, do you think it's a reasonable conclusion to believe that you favor agency over 'having to make a tradeoff'?

I want players to have a lot of freedom. But I want agency and freedom to be about 'freedom to choose'. However, the problem with freedom is that without limits, there are no 'choices'. In order for an action to be a choice there must be a trade off. For there to be a trade off, there must be inefficiencies.

This is my core disagreement and perception of why your argument is flawed. BDO's combat requires players to make choices. That is WHY their moves have some inefficiency in movement. This makes their PvP require a meaningful amount of skill. It is why in most good tab target games with good PvE you similarly do not always have complete freedom. Without having to make trade offs you simplify boss design.

A good hybrid system needs to have inefficiency in it's combat.

That is an excellent way to see it, I hadn't thought about that, thanks.

Raise

MybroViajero wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

I'm same as Azherae. I want to have big investment skills where I gotta think before using them, instead of just relying on my reaction speed.

Of course, that the central point is not only the reaction speed or if it is only the use of skills is a set where the freedom of movements given by the combat system encourages that.

For example, Wow has a fluid and reactive system that gives you outplay ability to other players but since it is a MMORPG with more than 17 years it feels a bit outdated but its system gives you opportunities in both movements and skills to be creative, its system gives the freedom to have flows, being reactive etc.

So I think that AOC should see that too, either in TAB you should weigh how to use the skills correctly or ACT where you must have a good reaction speed that the system of opportunity to be able to have freedom to feel the flows, freedom, The reaction and not only is it a frying movements or just movements to think but is a balance where what is the flow and freedom of the player to react to any eventuality (tab eventuality or act eventuality)

No game should be model after WoW PvP. The closest WoW came to having fluid PvP was during Vanilla when I was able to actually kill higher level-players, regardless of their level and gear if I outplayed them.

But even then, most times it was by completely disabling the other persons ability to play.

Even if I enjoy it sometimes, WoW PvP is not "fluid". It feels "fluid" because you can activate most talents at will, not because the combat is dynamic.

You can only "outplay" people in modern WoW by:

LOSing (Abusing Line-of-Sight)
Kiting or Running out of Range
Timing the other players cooldowns (which add-ons pretty much do for most people)
Doing a lot of damage before that person can react, if it's even possible for them to do so.
Having more beneficial cooldowns up than the other player.

You aren't "outplaying" anyone more than you are out-gearing or having knowledge of another classes limitations and advantages hence why "theory crafting" is prevalent within World of Warcraft.

WoW is heavily gear and level-based with 10 second stuns that completely disable your ability to play. Someone can mind-control your character, throw you off a cliff and you are dead.

There is nothing "reactive" or "fluid" about that.

The only "skill" involved is picking the classes with the most abusive talents and knowing when to click them.

And it's usually two or three classes that become overplayed every patch cycle because of this.

Other than that, healing is a completely overpowered handicap in WoW to the point most Arenas teams will make it NO WHERE without one. Besides the fact that WoW has been "balancing" the PvP for +17 years and it gets worse every expansion...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVvFHkpDKKs&t=391s

WoW is heavily gear, class-based and level-based with 10 second stuns. The only "skill" involved is picking the classes with the most abusive talents and knowing when to click them.

Ultima Online had more "fluid" PvP than WoW does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smFcRO9pffY

MybroViajero

Raise wrote: »

MybroViajero wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

I'm same as Azherae. I want to have big investment skills where I gotta think before using them, instead of just relying on my reaction speed.

Of course, that the central point is not only the reaction speed or if it is only the use of skills is a set where the freedom of movements given by the combat system encourages that.

For example, Wow has a fluid and reactive system that gives you outplay ability to other players but since it is a MMORPG with more than 17 years it feels a bit outdated but its system gives you opportunities in both movements and skills to be creative, its system gives the freedom to have flows, being reactive etc.

So I think that AOC should see that too, either in TAB you should weigh how to use the skills correctly or ACT where you must have a good reaction speed that the system of opportunity to be able to have freedom to feel the flows, freedom, The reaction and not only is it a frying movements or just movements to think but is a balance where what is the flow and freedom of the player to react to any eventuality (tab eventuality or act eventuality)

No game should be model after WoW PvP. The closest WoW came to having fluid PvP was during Vanilla when I was able to actually kill higher level-players, regardless of their level and gear if I outplayed them.

But even then, most times it was by completely disabling the other persons ability to play.

Even if I enjoy it sometimes, WoW PvP is not "fluid". It feels "fluid" because you can activate most talents at will, not because the combat is dynamic.

You can only "outplay" people in modern WoW by:

LOSing (Abusing Line-of-Sight)

Kiting or Running out of Range

Timing the other players cooldowns (which add-ons pretty much do for most people)

Doing a lot of damage before that person can react, if it's even possible for them to do so.

Having more beneficial cooldowns up than the other player.

You aren't "outplaying" anyone more than you are out-gearing or having knowledge of another classes limitations and advantages hence why "theory crafting" is prevalent within World of Warcraft.

WoW is heavily gear and level-based with 10 second stuns that completely disable your ability to play. Someone can mind-control your character, throw you off a cliff and you are dead.

There is nothing "reactive" or "fluid" about that.

The only "skill" involved is picking the classes with the most abusive talents and knowing when to click them.

And it's usually two or three classes that become overplayed every patch cycle because of this.

Other than that, healing is a completely overpowered handicap in WoW to the point most Arenas teams will make it NO WHERE without one. Besides the fact that WoW has been "balancing" the PvP for +17 years and it gets worse every expansion...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVvFHkpDKKs&t=391s

WoW is heavily gear, class-based and level-based with 10 second stuns. The only "skill" involved is picking the classes with the most abusive talents and knowing when to click them.

Ultima Online had more "fluid" PvP than WoW does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smFcRO9pffY

I agree with you about the current WOW but my point is not general, I don't know how to describe it but the movement ability, (whether in class skills, general skills or combat moves). that makes your character capable of overpowering your opponent is for me freedom of movement.

To put it another way, freedom of movement for me is not just pressing a key to overpower an opponent, but having to think about how, when, in what way you can do to overpower your opponent with your character's skills and moves.I would like to see that in AoC.

Now, I think the last thing I've played that gives me the feeling of freedom of movement is SEKIRO from my point of view has very SAFE movements but at the same time FRENETIC movements (by the character and by the enemies) that synchronize very well and give a sense of fluidity that I would particularly like to see in AoC.

https://youtu.be/rYcHlOgI7pg

Mag7spy

Are you talking about having skills that link very well with other skills to have a good fluid motion as if you are doing a combo in a fighting game? In the video i see him do an attack and he does into a back step which looks fluid and good. That is the kind of stuff that would be good to have int he game in combat for AoC. I'll always advocate for it but I'm unsure if they will do the combat to that kind of high level but its possible for sure. IT something you wouldn't have on all skills but on some skills to lower their animations and give you some more mobility and increase the skill ceiling.

MybroViajero

Mag7spy wrote: »

Are you talking about having skills that link very well with other skills to have a good fluid motion as if you are doing a combo in a fighting game? In the video i see him do an attack and he does into a back step which looks fluid and good. That is the kind of stuff that would be good to have int he game in combat for AoC. I'll always advocate for it but I'm unsure if they will do the combat to that kind of high level but its possible for sure. IT something you wouldn't have on all skills but on some skills to lower their animations and give you some more mobility and increase the skill ceiling.

Thank you very much for making me understand what I wanted to say, that's what I meant, the connection of movements, combos, skills that make the character look more dynamic, more spontaneous, more controllable, more fluid and responsive with their movements and against the movements of the enemy.

Mag7spy

100% agree then.

ariatras

NiKr wrote: »

I'm same as Azherae. I want to have big investment skills where I gotta think before using them, instead of just relying on my reaction speed.

Indeed, but I want to be able to cancel it by pressing a movement key.

Solvryn

This thread exposes the fact that people who do not understand how perceptual data works.

Dygz

Sekiro is not an RPG, so you probably should not be expecting that type of combat in Ashes.

MybroViajero

Solvryn wrote: »

This thread exposes the fact that people who do not understand how perceptual data works.

Of course I am not a developer or a professional with knowledge of these issues and I also know that a MMORPG to be so massive would be difficult to have the movements or skills of SEKIRO.
But that does not mean that the idea is wrong, in BDO you can use skills in sequence to have COMBO attacks, those attacks although I particularly find them too frenetic and little controllable give a sense of fluidity and freedom when handling the character, like Sekiro with his style of movement skills, like Elden Ring with its more controllable and safe movements, etc..

It feels good that these games give you the option through combos to exploit the moves of their characters (whether it's frenetic like BDO, safer like Elden Ring or balanced like SEKIRO) and not just a hit, run, hit, hit, skill, hit, skill, hit, skill, run.

So a MMORPG could have the moves or skills of Sekiro or Elden ring? With your knowledge you tell me that it is not possible, ok fine, but a MMORPG could think about having their moves and skills in sequence of combos to give more freedom to the players to control their character? . That is the idea I am trying to put forward.

If it is not possible I can understand it, sorry for my ignorance in development issues but not thinking about it and losing the opportunity to know if it would work or not I think it is not something that encourages innovation and improvement.

Azherae

MybroViajero wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

This thread exposes the fact that people who do not understand how perceptual data works.

Of course I am not a developer or a professional with knowledge of these issues and I also know that a MMORPG to be so massive would be difficult to have the movements or skills of SEKIRO.
But that does not mean that the idea is wrong, in BDO you can use skills in sequence to have COMBO attacks, those attacks although I particularly find them too frenetic and little controllable give a sense of fluidity and freedom when handling the character, like Sekiro with his style of movement skills, like Elden Ring with its more controllable and safe movements, etc..

It feels good that these games give you the option through combos to exploit the moves of their characters (whether it's frenetic like BDO, safer like Elden Ring or balanced like SEKIRO) and not just a hit, run, hit, hit, skill, hit, skill, hit, skill, run.

So a MMORPG could have the moves or skills of Sekiro or Elden ring? With your knowledge you tell me that it is not possible, ok fine, but a MMORPG could think about having their moves and skills in sequence of combos to give more freedom to the players to control their character? . That is the idea I am trying to put forward.

If it is not possible I can understand it, sorry for my ignorance in development issues but not thinking about it and losing the opportunity to know if it would work or not I think it is not something that encourages innovation and improvement.

It is easily possible.

The issue in BDO, the reason it's frenetic, has nothing to do with combos. It has to do with 'when you can cancel one animation into another', particularly into movement.

I fully expect that we are going to get something great from Intrepid in almost exactly this way, it is not difficult to program even for an MMO, it already exists in some.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmRjTP3pw8o

JustVine

Azherae wrote: »

MybroViajero wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

This thread exposes the fact that people who do not understand how perceptual data works.

Of course I am not a developer or a professional with knowledge of these issues and I also know that a MMORPG to be so massive would be difficult to have the movements or skills of SEKIRO.
But that does not mean that the idea is wrong, in BDO you can use skills in sequence to have COMBO attacks, those attacks although I particularly find them too frenetic and little controllable give a sense of fluidity and freedom when handling the character, like Sekiro with his style of movement skills, like Elden Ring with its more controllable and safe movements, etc..

It feels good that these games give you the option through combos to exploit the moves of their characters (whether it's frenetic like BDO, safer like Elden Ring or balanced like SEKIRO) and not just a hit, run, hit, hit, skill, hit, skill, hit, skill, run.

So a MMORPG could have the moves or skills of Sekiro or Elden ring? With your knowledge you tell me that it is not possible, ok fine, but a MMORPG could think about having their moves and skills in sequence of combos to give more freedom to the players to control their character? . That is the idea I am trying to put forward.

If it is not possible I can understand it, sorry for my ignorance in development issues but not thinking about it and losing the opportunity to know if it would work or not I think it is not something that encourages innovation and improvement.

It is easily possible.

The issue in BDO, the reason it's frenetic, has nothing to do with combos. It has to do with 'when you can cancel one animation into another', particularly into movement.

I fully expect that we are going to get something great from Intrepid in almost exactly this way, it is not difficult to program even for an MMO, it already exists in some.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmRjTP3pw8o

How spot on NWO plays compared to what Ashes has played like in Alpha and shown in newer combat footage always catches me off guard with a critical sneak attack. Yeah it has it's flaws and needed smaller adjustments but like... Nah, IS really could just 'make their own owpvp sandpark version of NWO' and it'd fit everything they've tried explaining about how they want the game to work.

Solvryn

MybroViajero wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

This thread exposes the fact that people who do not understand how perceptual data works.

Of course I am not a developer or a professional with knowledge of these issues and I also know that a MMORPG to be so massive would be difficult to have the movements or skills of SEKIRO.
But that does not mean that the idea is wrong, in BDO you can use skills in sequence to have COMBO attacks, those attacks although I particularly find them too frenetic and little controllable give a sense of fluidity and freedom when handling the character, like Sekiro with his style of movement skills, like Elden Ring with its more controllable and safe movements, etc..

It feels good that these games give you the option through combos to exploit the moves of their characters (whether it's frenetic like BDO, safer like Elden Ring or balanced like SEKIRO) and not just a hit, run, hit, hit, skill, hit, skill, hit, skill, run.

So a MMORPG could have the moves or skills of Sekiro or Elden ring? With your knowledge you tell me that it is not possible, ok fine, but a MMORPG could think about having their moves and skills in sequence of combos to give more freedom to the players to control their character? . That is the idea I am trying to put forward.

If it is not possible I can understand it, sorry for my ignorance in development issues but not thinking about it and losing the opportunity to know if it would work or not I think it is not something that encourages innovation and improvement.

Wasn’t aimed at you Broseph.

People dismissing perceptual data especially with how much action combat provides it, have a very limited understanding on how the brain processes data.

It denotes a lack of an education or being obtuse.

Their view of data is very basic.

MybroViajero

Solvryn wrote: »

MybroViajero wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

This thread exposes the fact that people who do not understand how perceptual data works.

Of course I am not a developer or a professional with knowledge of these issues and I also know that a MMORPG to be so massive would be difficult to have the movements or skills of SEKIRO.
But that does not mean that the idea is wrong, in BDO you can use skills in sequence to have COMBO attacks, those attacks although I particularly find them too frenetic and little controllable give a sense of fluidity and freedom when handling the character, like Sekiro with his style of movement skills, like Elden Ring with its more controllable and safe movements, etc..

It feels good that these games give you the option through combos to exploit the moves of their characters (whether it's frenetic like BDO, safer like Elden Ring or balanced like SEKIRO) and not just a hit, run, hit, hit, skill, hit, skill, hit, skill, run.

So a MMORPG could have the moves or skills of Sekiro or Elden ring? With your knowledge you tell me that it is not possible, ok fine, but a MMORPG could think about having their moves and skills in sequence of combos to give more freedom to the players to control their character? . That is the idea I am trying to put forward.

If it is not possible I can understand it, sorry for my ignorance in development issues but not thinking about it and losing the opportunity to know if it would work or not I think it is not something that encourages innovation and improvement.

Wasn’t aimed at you Broseph.

Sorry about that, lol, one more thing I have to improve my understanding xd

NishUK

BDO wasn't "false movement" but in general, awakened class abilities, 'super armor" and throws + follow ups reduced movement ie you commit to these rather user friendly and great abilities, your choice on when to use!....well, that's what it turned out to be more so with their new classes and awakened focus, the game was less like this with default/un-awakened classes.

Contrasting it to LoL isn't fair, not so much because of different genre's (an argument I generally despise when used simply!), but movement will stand out like a sore thumb because the game itself is fashioned in such a way, as in, you have more allies than your 4 team mates IE your towers to retreat too and many obstacles that literally end up being brick walls if your opponent is on dash/flash cd or literally has nothing to follow.

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