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Cosmetic Shop is P2W

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Comments

  • edited August 6
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Lmfao. You are all pathetic. You choose to ignore the blatant lie that this video game won’t have pay to win because it makes the milk you constantly suckle from Steven’s teat of promises taste sour. You all have sat on this post all day repeating the same limited and subjective opinion that cosmetics don’t affect your precious number score, so they must be meaningless in a role playing adventure game. You don’t have an original thought in your head and you have probably never tried to see life from someone else’s point of view. Just regurgitating whatever makes your reality less pitiful on discussion boards that “piss you off”. Keep throwing your money at this game that isn’t even out yet and has no release date in sight so they can give you your meaningless little forum titles and keep you soothed as they keep convincing you they need even more of it.

    Yes, vent out! Show off your true pathetic colors! Expose your baseless insignificant subjective opinions!

    Try as hard as you can to push your ridiculous assumption of what you believe P2W to be!
    Go ahead cry as loud are you are able to that 0 Stats costumes are pay 2 win and that they are the nemesis of RP people(As if speaking for all of them).

    I just love to see your struggle, it's simple amusing to watch.
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    Aren't we all sinners?
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    I guess the sleeping animal was finally poked enough by the dumb monkeys to wake up and start fighting them :) That's a shame tbh, but I guess it was inevitable.
  • Not this dumb shit again. It's not pay to win
  • If thats how you define P2W sure.

    As far as I'm concerned, if the money shop never steps foot in the realm of gameplay that's a limit I'm okay with.

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Samson wrote: »

    Like I already said before in prior replies, I understand that some people have no qualms with a cosmetic store in AoC. And I totally respect that... But that doesn't take away the fact that some players feel the store impacts their playing experience in a negative way.
    As you pointed out before...
    I think most of us, here, have no problem accepting that some people feel the store impacts their playing experience in a negative way.
    We just have an issue with the absurd definition of P2W in the OP.

    There will be people who have issues with some of the features (or lack of features) in Ashes.
    Can't please all of the people all of the time.
    Some people will be disappointed by some of the design goals. That's life.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited August 6
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Lmfao. You are all pathetic. You choose to ignore the blatant lie that this video game won’t have pay to win because it makes the milk you constantly suckle from Steven’s teat of promises taste sour. You all have sat on this post all day repeating the same limited and subjective opinion...
    LMFAO
    Straight from the mouth of the pot.


    Iridianny wrote: »
    "Cosmetics don’t affect your precious number score, so they must be meaningless in a role playing adventure game. You don’t have an original thought in your head and you have probably never tried to see life from someone else’s point of view."
    But... again... that is not a stance people have taken. You can straw man argue that 24/7; it's still going to remain a fallacy.
    What people have told you is that because cosmetics don't affect number scores, it's not P2W.
    You'd have a better title if it said, "Cosmetic Shop is P4 Convenience".
    Cosmetics objectively do not help you win anything. Any reasonable person would concede that. That you refuse to concede it makes you a dishonest interlocuter.

    I think most of us here, if not all of us, understand that you feel the cosmetics shop intereferes with the way you want appearance progression to work. Just as some people feel Corruption interferes with they want PvP to work. Some people feel no separate PvE servers interferes with the way they want PvE to work. Some people feel no DPS meters interferes with the way they want raids to work.
    Disagreeing about which features we want in Ashes, as well as disagreeing about which features we don't want in Ashes, doesn't mean we don't see life from someone else's point of view.
    Just because I like chocolate doesn't mean that I can't understand and accept that some other person doesn't like chocolate. But, when the person is calling an apple chocolate, I'm going to tell them, "Apples are not chocolate." Doesn't matter how many times they tell me why they don't like chocolate. It's fine if they don't like chocolate - can't please all of the people all of the time.
    But, that doesn't make an apple chocolate.
    If, for whatever reason, you wish to believe an apple is choclate rather than a fruit... go ahead. But, you won't convince other people that the apple is really chocolate.
    We can still accept that for you chocolate tastes nasty. We can even accept that for you apples taste nasty.
    And still apples are not the same thing as chocolate. Even though they are similar in that they are things people eat.



    Iridianny wrote: »
    Keep throwing your money at this game that isn’t even out yet and has no release date in sight so they can give you your meaningless little forum titles and keep you soothed as they keep convincing you they need even more of it.
    Well...yeah... I'm going to keep throwing my money at this game when I see something I wish to purchase because I want to reward the devs for working on gameplay features I want to to exprience in an MMORPG.
    So that, even if this game becomes vaporware, the devs have gained the work experience that will help them create similar features for whatever MMORPG project they work on next.
    Especially since some of the devs are friends of mine.

    The devs don't have to convince me that they need more of money.
    I've already been able to play more of Ashes than I have some other MMORPGs I followed and supported.
    I probably pay as much for Ashes cosmetics per year as I hand out to homeless people each year, so... it's not that big of a deal.
    No one is forcing you to pay for cosmetics. If you don't want to purchase cosmetics, don't purchase cosmetics. There's not even any pressure to purchase cosmetics... as there might be pressure to keep up with P2W gear that allows others to excel at combat in a manner that people who don't purchase the gear can't excel.

    P2W has a limited and fairly objective meaning. I mean...all word definitions are subjective to some degree.
    Words are symbolic.
    But... no...cosmetics are not P2W. Most people, if not all, will reject the suggestion that cosmetics are P2W.
    Many people accept that you don't like cash shops and that you feel Ashes shouldn't have one. We even accept that you feel the cash shop is a detriment. Plenty have said, "Yep...I'd prefer there wasn't one, but... it's not as bad as P2W."
  • @Dygz they’re your friends and they got you on forum duty without even giving you a staff role?! And you’re paying them! Tough luck…
    I’ll say it one last time, if cosmetics weren’t a vital part of gameplay experience, Steven wouldn’t have justified the cash shop not being p2w by saying the “best looking” cosmetics are those in game, disregarding any logic that taste in appearance is subjective.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited August 6
    Appearance doesn't win you anything.
    Doesn't matter whether taste in appearance is subjective. Especially since we can customize gear in ways we can't with skins.

    The quotes I see from Steven are:
    "The most grand looking cosmetics will be from in-game achievment only."
    "The best skins will be in-game achievable (obviously “best” is subjective, so I’d say the most ornate and detailed/unique)."
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Lmfao. You are all pathetic. You choose to ignore the blatant lie that this video game won’t have pay to win because it makes the milk you constantly suckle from Steven’s teat of promises taste sour. You all have sat on this post all day repeating the same limited and subjective opinion...
    LMFAO
    Straight from the mouth of the pot.


    Iridianny wrote: »
    "Cosmetics don’t affect your precious number score, so they must be meaningless in a role playing adventure game. You don’t have an original thought in your head and you have probably never tried to see life from someone else’s point of view."
    But... again... that is not a stance people have taken. You can straw man argue that 24/7; it's still going to remain a fallacy.
    What people have told you is that because cosmetics don't affect number scores, it's not P2W.
    You'd have a better title if it said, "Cosmetic Shop is P4 Convenience".
    Cosmetics objectively do not help you win anything. Any reasonable person would concede that. That you refuse to concede it makes you a dishonest interlocuter.

    I think most of us here, if not all of us, understand that you feel the cosmetics shop intereferes with the way you want appearance progression to work. Just as some people feel Corruption interferes with they want PvP to work. Some people feel no separate PvE servers interferes with the way they want PvE to work. Some people feel no DPS meters interferes with the way they want raids to work.
    Disagreeing about which features we want in Ashes, as well as disagreeing about which features we don't want in Ashes, doesn't mean we don't see life from someone else's point of view.
    Just because I like chocolate doesn't mean that I can't understand and accept that some other person doesn't like chocolate. But, when the person is calling an apple chocolate, I'm going to tell them, "Apples are not chocolate." Doesn't matter how many times they tell me why they don't like chocolate. It's fine if they don't like chocolate - can't please all of the people all of the time.
    But, that doesn't make an apple chocolate.
    If, for whatever reason, you wish to believe an apple is choclate rather than a fruit... go ahead. But, you won't convince other people that the apple is really chocolate.
    We can still accept that for you chocolate tastes nasty. We can even accept that for you apples taste nasty.
    And still apples are not the same thing as chocolate. Even though they are similar in that they are things people eat.



    Iridianny wrote: »
    Keep throwing your money at this game that isn’t even out yet and has no release date in sight so they can give you your meaningless little forum titles and keep you soothed as they keep convincing you they need even more of it.
    Well...yeah... I'm going to keep throwing my money at this game when I see something I wish to purchase because I want to reward the devs for working on gameplay features I want to to exprience in an MMORPG.
    So that, even if this game becomes vaporware, the devs have gained the work experience that will help them create similar features for whatever MMORPG project they work on next.
    Especially since some of the devs are friends of mine.

    The devs don't have to convince me that they need more of money.
    I've already been able to play more of Ashes than I have some other MMORPGs I followed and supported.
    I probably pay as much for Ashes cosmetics per year as I hand out to homeless people each year, so... it's not that big of a deal.
    No one is forcing you to pay for cosmetics. If you don't want to purchase cosmetics, don't purchase cosmetics. There's not even any pressure to purchase cosmetics... as there might be pressure to keep up with P2W gear that allows others to excel at combat in a manner that people who don't purchase the gear can't excel.

    P2W has a limited and fairly objective meaning. I mean...all word definitions are subjective to some degree.
    Words are symbolic.
    But... no...cosmetics are not P2W. Most people, if not all, will reject the suggestion that cosmetics are P2W.
    Many people accept that you don't like cash shops and that you feel Ashes shouldn't have one. We even accept that you feel the cash shop is a detriment. Plenty have said, "Yep...I'd prefer there wasn't one, but... it's not as bad as P2W."

    Its amazing that we agree on something for once lmao. Cheers dude.

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    GJjUGHx.gif
  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Natasha wrote: »
    Alright everyone ashes of creation is already over , its solved. GG. Congrats to okeydoke who won.

    Oh. My. God. omg. I was just kidding with what I said last night. But I just got the call from Steven congratulating me. Turns out the exact combination of skins that I have bought was the winning combination!

    Asmongold's org is already trying to recruit me. Got 100 Thieves on hold right now. Shroud wants to hang out and discuss future plans. OMG

    Hey Dygz. Shoulda been nice to me before I got famous BEEYOTTTTCCCCCHHHHH



  • Sabrina LancasterSabrina Lancaster Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Iridianny wrote: »

    “Winning” in an mmo with numerous progression routes, is quite subjective.
    Given all of this, cosmetics items would fall into pay to win. Collection of appearances is a game mechanic. Being able to buy any feature of your character that otherwise could be achieved in game through content and game mechanics, is paying to “win” part of the game.

    I removed a lot of the fluff because these are the two points I want to address. First of all, just because you choose to determine what you view as "winning" in an MMO as being collecting outfits does not mean anything. FF14 has one of the most expansive cash shops with most of it being items that are purely cosmetic like mounts. Literally nobody considers that pay to win because they're outfits, they don't provide you with any actual benefits to your stats except some costumes but that bonus goes away at level 30, something most players can achieve within a couple of hours and has absolutely zero impact on the game at the later levels. About the closest thing you get to pay-to-win in that game is the pre-order accessory each expansion, but even that is hardcapped to just scale to your player level, it will never be better than anything you could otherwise attain with relative ease and at milestone levels like 50, 60, 70, 80 it straight up gets outclassed by other available pieces to the point you only keep it on for the EXP buff.

    Additionally, you are not paying to unlock a cosmetic that exists within the game attainable by conventional means early. It isn't like "Oh well you can grind 4 weeks for this chestpiece that looks cool, or shell out 20 dollars and have it now." which was a problem with All Points Bulletin because anybody with money to throw at the game had access to weapons and ammo on par with the best anyone else could acquire, just they didn't really need to earn it through gameplay.

    I'll be frank here, in summary I would have said I don't think there's a person on this planet dumb enough to actually think the ability to purchase cosmetics, something done by pretty much every other MMO on the market as side income would be pay-to-win. However, that clearly is not the case because this forum post exists raising that exact thing. If anything, the fact they've even made sure to mention that the sets you attain in-game as a form of prestige are going to look better than cash shop items already puts them miles ahead of WoW where the main gripe over there isn't pay-to-win so much as people losing their marbles because the mounts you buy on their cash shop are always something new and have a large amount of work visible, whereas what you can earn in game are basically crappy reskins of mounts or models that have existed in the game files since 2006 roughly.

    That being said, WoW does tend to get the moniker of pay-to-win by its cash shop and I don't disagree, however it's not the boosts or the cosmetics, or well it is a different type of boost. It's the fact you can spend 20 dollars, and basically RMT through Blizzard themselves because you'll get something guaranteed to sell for a price, typically about 200k. You can then use that gold you essentially bought from Blizzard to pay other players to carry you through content you can't down yourself while also getting the rewards. That is pay-to-win, some guy having a fricken costume that looks nice at best isn't pay-to-win unless your whole idea of winning in an MMO is having cosmetic items which would put you in an extreme minority of players since most people view "winning" an MMO as having beaten the hardest content in PvE, or being a legend in PvP, but most would opt for the former because PvE just is more popular among players now more than ever.
  • Iridianny wrote: »
    “Ashes of Creation will not be pay to win, that is our pledge to the community. One of the core principles we set forth with Ashes of Creation is a very strong desire to maintain the game's even playing field.”

    “Winning” in an mmo with numerous progression routes, is quite subjective. Except they all have one thing in common, your character. Different from other games, rpgs and especially rpg mmos offer the feature of playing a character you skill, dress, role play, quest, fight, talk, and just experience the game with and through. Those ways of interacting through your character are all equally important parts of the game even if some hold different weight to different people. Regardless, they are all included in your character’s overall experience.
    Given your character’s experience is the content of the game, and this game is a community game with other people’s characters affecting yours, character appearance matters and directly affects your quality of gameplay experience.
    Character appearance could be interpreted as: your level, your combat gear, your non combat gear, your pets, your mounts, physical appearance, race, titles, and more. Really anything that other characters in the game can see about your character is character’s appearance. These often signify to others, and yourself, you have accomplished something in the game.
    If character appearance truly didn’t matter, it would not be the focus of mmos. Level of visualization is nearly all that separates a board game from a video game. Having character visualization and progression is what separates other video games from a role playing game.
    Given all of this, cosmetics items would fall into pay to win. Collection of appearances is a game mechanic. Being able to buy any feature of your character that otherwise could be achieved in game through content and game mechanics, is paying to “win” part of the game.

    Revised from discussion with:
    The most grand looking cosmetics will be from in-game achievment only.[9] – Steven Sharif
    This was said to justify a cosmetic store "not being pay to win" because he addresses that the alternative to that is or he wouldn't have ever said this. Except, as we all know, the "best" in terms of appearance and cosmetics is subjective, so the store would be p2w given there are any cosmetics in it.

    imagine if you could get to challenger in league by just buying skins
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