Node system question

Hi, I was watching Asmon react to Lazypeon's video about AoC talking about nodes and he raised a concern how meta-gaming might influence the game in that people will just gather around the most "efficient" nodes and do that over and over again.

I am just wondering cause I think the same will happen if the developers have thought of this and perhaps if there are ways to make sure this would not ruin what the experience is supposed to do.

Maybe something like diminishing returns on the rewards of a specific node after repeating it so many times or reliant on player density perhaps? I am not sure.

Anyway this is my first post I made an account just to put this here as I am not sure where to put feedback. I hope it is useful

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Warth

I assume that you are talking about Node Types?

There will probably be 1+ year worth of Alpha 2 Testing. If any of the node types provide perks, that outweigh all the others on a scale, where people actively want to pursue it, then i'm confident that it will be caught and balanced out before the game is even released.

Minor differences in terms of perks won't matter, as all the other, non comparable aspects will make people choose different nodes to flock to.

PenguinPaladin

What do you mean by "efficient" nodes?

All content is unlocked from nodes. So to find out what content is available you will need to level a node, to see what content it provides, and then destroy it and check out the other surrounding nodes.

Gatherables spawn with some rng, and are effected by the weather. And dont necessarily respawn in the same region, area, or node.

Idk what efficient nodes are. But hope that info is akin to what you may be asking.

Noaani

blimp wrote: »

Hi, I was watching Asmon react to Lazypeon's video about AoC talking about nodes

I suggest doing some first hand research and form your own opinions, rather than relying on the opinion of an entertainer.

I suggest starting here https://ashesofcreation.wiki/

PenguinPaladin

Noaani wrote: »

blimp wrote: »

Hi, I was watching Asmon react to Lazypeon's video about AoC talking about nodes

I suggest doing some first hand research and form your own opinions, rather than relying on the opinion of an entertainer.

I suggest starting here https://ashesofcreation.wiki/

Step 1. Ask a question.

Step 2. read the entire wiki so noaani doesnt have to answer your questions.

Everyone starts having interest somewhere.

Daggial

Considering how big is the naval content going to be, I can see coastal nodes being way more popular than in-land ones, regardless of the node type.
So the following question would be: which extras do in-land nodes have, to compensate the lack of direct access to sea and naval content?

Noaani

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

blimp wrote: »

Hi, I was watching Asmon react to Lazypeon's video about AoC talking about nodes

I suggest doing some first hand research and form your own opinions, rather than relying on the opinion of an entertainer.

I suggest starting here https://ashesofcreation.wiki/

Step 1. Ask a question.

Step 2. read the entire wiki so noaani doesnt have to answer your questions.

Everyone starts having interest somewhere.

Are you saying there is something wrong with suggesting someone go out and form their own opinion on a topic rather than essentially watching some watch someone else interpret something that someone else said?

I mean, Asmon isnt exactly clued in to, well, anything at all really (other than how to exploit an impressionable audience). Using him as a source for information is always going to cause problems.

Case in point, the question in the OP doesnt make any sense. I cant answer it at all because it simply doesnt have an answer. This is why I suggested the wiki. The "answer" you gave isnt an answer, because you dont understand the question. You dont understand the question because the OP doesnt understand the question (they are just regurgitating it). In order for you to understand the question, and thus be able to answer it, the OP needs to understand the question first.

Rather than giving the OP a non-answer, as you seem to think is the best course of action here, I thin the best thing to do is send the OP off to work out what the question is that they are trying to ask, so that I actually COULD then answer it for them.

Unlike you, I am not going to attempt to answer a question with bullshit.

PenguinPaladin

Daggial wrote: »

Considering how big is the naval content going to be, I can see coastal nodes being way more popular than in-land ones, regardless of the node type.
So the following question would be: which extras do in-land nodes have, to compensate the lack of direct access to sea and naval content?

I dont necessarily think having access to the sea or naval content as an advantage, that needs to be counter balanced.

With aquatic mounts, vs land mounts. I would assume mounted travel on land with a land mount would be comparable to mounted travel at sea with an aquatic mount.

At sea you have no cover. You are easily spotable. While on land you have terrain to try and hide in.

Moving goods and people at sea you have to do it by force. Present a navy that people wont want to mess with. While by land you can try and sneak caravans through and such.

Its just different. Not necessarily unbalanced.

Also, the access to sea content vs access to the content made by a land locked node... again, just different. Not necessarily unbalanced.

Warth

So i've looked up the video OP is refering to for anyone who's interested. With timestamp:

Full section:
(Starts: 8:37)

https://youtu.be/PqKMlsAmxpo?t=457

For people who only want to see the relevant concern in 2mins or less:

(It starts at 10:05 not sure why linking it through the forum fucks up the timestamp)

https://youtu.be/PqKMlsAmxpo?t=605

PenguinPaladin

Noaani wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

blimp wrote: »

Hi, I was watching Asmon react to Lazypeon's video about AoC talking about nodes

I suggest doing some first hand research and form your own opinions, rather than relying on the opinion of an entertainer.

I suggest starting here https://ashesofcreation.wiki/

Step 1. Ask a question.

Step 2. read the entire wiki so noaani doesnt have to answer your questions.

Everyone starts having interest somewhere.

Are you saying there is something wrong with suggesting someone go out and form their own opinion on a topic rather than essentially watching some watch someone else interpret something that someone else said?

I mean, Asmon isnt exactly clued in to, well, anything at all really (other than how to exploit an impressionable audience). Using him as a source for information is always going to cause problems.

Case in point, the question in the OP doesnt make any sense. I cant answer it at all because it simply doesnt have an answer. This is why I suggested the wiki. The "answer" you gave isnt an answer, because you dont understand the question. You dont understand the question because the OP doesnt understand the question (they are just regurgitating it). In order for you to understand the question, and thus be able to answer it, the OP needs to understand the question first.

Rather than giving the OP a non-answer, as you seem to think is the best course of action here, I thin the best thing to do is send the OP off to work out what the question is that they are trying to ask, so that I actually COULD then answer it for them.

Unlike you, I am not going to attempt to answer a question with bullshit.

The difference is understanding someones familiarity with the topic and how you treat them. Im trying to be friendly. I wont speak for you. This is a public forum if you dont want to help someone, dont post in their thread, that would be my take on it. But obviously you go ahead and live your life Noaani.

Hatham

The problem is we don't need to look far for examples of how control gets abused in town management/node -> the best example i can give is new world -> albion also shares some of this.

Asmond mentions how taxes could be ramped up will ruin it for others and how players will min max to get the optimal nodes but the nodes can be balanced to some extent.

What i would like to know is how the game is going to manage how high taxes can go because for me it ruins both Albion and new world. ( also in the video that poen shows - the taxes can go to 100%, I don't have any faith that people wont just it to 100% and ruin it for everyone - this happened in albion and new world already)

Warth

Hatham wrote: »

The problem is we don't need to look far for examples of how control gets abused in town management/node -> the best example i can give is new world -> albion also shares some of this.

Asmond mentions how taxes could be ramped up will ruin it for others and how players will min max to get the optimal nodes but the nodes can be balanced to some extent.

What i would like to know is how the game is going to manage how high taxes can go because for me it ruins both Albion and new world. ( also in the video that poen shows - the taxes can go to 100%, I don't have any faith that people wont just it to 100% and ruin it for everyone - this happened in albion and new world already)

@Hatham in Albion and New World, Guilds were able to extract the gold made from Taxes to pocket it themselves.

In AoC, the money that goes into a Node will stay there and is essentially a gold sink designed to take money out of the economy. Its a closed system, that doesn't allow governing players and taxes to extract the money from their own pockets.

In Albion and NW, they had personal incentive to max out the taxes as high taxes == more money for those guilds.

In AoC they do not, as they can not extract the Gold into their own pockets which results in high taxes == less money for those guilds.

PenguinPaladin

Hatham wrote: »

The problem is we don't need to look far for examples of how control gets abused in town management/node -> the best example i can give is new world -> albion also shares some of this.

Asmond mentions how taxes could be ramped up will ruin it for others and how players will min max to get the optimal nodes but the nodes can be balanced to some extent.

What i would like to know is how the game is going to manage how high taxes can go because for me it ruins both Albion and new world. ( also in the video that poen shows - the taxes can go to 100%, I don't have any faith that people wont just it to 100% and ruin it for everyone - this happened in albion and new world already)

The difference is how mayors are elected.

In ashes each type of node has its own election process. So a mayor who doesnt take his job seriously has a different experience for each node.

Science nodes it is by popular vote. Every citizen votes.

Economic nodes it is literally puchased i believe.

Military nodes it is fought for by champions.

Religious nodes it is competed for through religious quests

And on top of that, taxes from the node can only be spent on the node. The mayors themselves do not gain anything due to tax amount. It is castle taxes that binifit the ruler.

Hatham

That's good to know. Thanks for answering my question.

Noaani

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Im trying to be friendly.

And I'm trying to be helpful.

What is more helpful - a bullshit answer to a question that isnt understood, or a link to where understanding can be gained, if desired?

PenguinPaladin

Noaani wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Im trying to be friendly.

And I'm trying to be helpful.

What is more helpful - a bullshit answer to a question that isnt understood, or a link to where understanding can be gained, if desired?

I guess we both have different expectations for how a discussion about a topic goes...

What i expect, i attempt to answer what i beleive them to be asking, and make it known i dont fully understand what they are asking, which invites them to clearify their thoughts and such...

You seem to perfer, question-direct answer. Conversation over. Which is fine. But why continue to try and argue with me if your goal is to be helpful? Surly derailing the thread, which is still trying to discuss topics about nodes, around you isnt helpful.

Noaani

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

I guess we both have different expectations for how a discussion about a topic goes...

You cant have a fruitful discussion with someone when all information they think they have on the game are actually just incorrect assumptions.

All you can do is try and convince them that the assumptions they have made are indeed incorrect.

The easiest way to do that is for them to read it for them self - far better reading referenced articles 5han listening to random people on the internet.

I'm more than happy to engage in conversation - I am not interested in trying to convince someone that everything they think they know about the game is wrong.

But why continue to try and argue with me if your goal is to be helpful?

The only assistance I intend to offer the OP is the link to the wiki. If they take that and learn something, cool - maybe there could be a discussion after that.

However.

You tried to call me out, remember? Why are you now complaining that I am attempting to derail the thread when you started this?

BaSkA_9x2

blimp wrote: »

Hi, I was watching Asmon react to Lazypeon's video about AoC talking about nodes and he raised a concern how meta-gaming might influence the game in that people will just gather around the most "efficient" nodes and do that over and over again.

I started reflecting about how meta-gaming might affect Ashes many months ago and I think it's going to be fine.

I am of the opinion that meta-gaming doesn't always have to be seen as something bad and evil in gaming. Nobody is forced to meta-game, you can play the game without ever looking at a wiki, even if that means you won't be as "efficient" as other players. Of course, in Ashes case, that might mean your home Node will get slammed because it's not "efficient", but even then I believe that it's just part of the game, and your
Node could be hit for any other reason anyway.

With that said, I don't believe that Alpha 2 and Beta will be enough to make so that every server is meta-gamed out the ass right on launch, only the hardcore servers will. I have no doubt that a handful of servers in every region will be unofficially chosen as the most competitive servers, the streamer servers and the RP servers, so although I agree that one shouldn't have to worry about this, I don't believe it's possible to get rid of this segregation in this day and age. At some point, however, most servers will probably start pivoting towards the most "efficient" Nodes, but I believe that will take quite some time, maybe years.

I'm not sure what you meant by "efficient" in your OP, but what I believe it will mean is:

the meta Node type
the meta raids/dungeons developed because of which Nodes were developed/not developed
the best Nodes for specific activities
the best Metro locations

In any case, I believe that it is possible for Intrepid to design the game in such a way that no Node type will ever be the meta, no specific Node will be so meta that it's "sacred" and never attacked for meta-gaming reasons and, most importantly, if Intrepid can design the game in a way that all the different pieces of BiS gear can only be acquired by beating raids and dungeons that cannot exist at the same time because of Node development (or lack thereof), that will mean no Node is ever safe from people trying to improve their gear via meta-gaming.

Last but not least, if meta-gaming becomes an issue, Intrepid's first big expansion could be a devastating event that "coincidently" changes many things relating to Nodes, fixing any meta-gaming issues or whatever game design issues they detect.

TL;DR: I wouldn't worry about meta-gaming related to Node development in Ashes. Intrepid has the power to make sure meta-gaming won't result in every server looking the same. And I actually think that meta-gaming can even become a part of the game in a good way, similarly to how it makes an old ugly game like OSRS more fun to me.

Obs.: I know that raids/dungeons won't drop gear directly, but they'll drop what's needed to craft it.

PenguinPaladin

Noaani wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

I guess we both have different expectations for how a discussion about a topic goes...

You cant have a fruitful discussion with someone when all information they think they have on the game are actually just incorrect assumptions.

All you can do is try and convince them that the assumptions they have made are indeed incorrect.

The easiest way to do that is for them to read it for them self - far better reading referenced articles 5han listening to random people on the internet.

I'm more than happy to engage in conversation - I am not interested in trying to convince someone that everything they think they know about the game is wrong.

But why continue to try and argue with me if your goal is to be helpful?

The only assistance I intend to offer the OP is the link to the wiki. If they take that and learn something, cool - maybe there could be a discussion after that.

However.

You tried to call me out, remember? Why are you now complaining that I am attempting to derail the thread when you started this?

Im not trying to be a hypocrite. I know it takes two to argue, and here i am. The difference being just what you said... you are done here. The wiki link is the only thing you intended to provide. Now you are only here to argue. How helpful. Im here to argue, and discuss. Because im bored at work. Im not trying to act like you're wrong or anything. But if every thread was first responded to by a wiki link and nothing else, then what are the forums? These forums really are not welcoming. So i try and be friendly, and only argue with those who seem like they have nothing better to do as well.

BaSkA_9x2

Hatham wrote: »

The problem is we don't need to look far for examples of how control gets abused in town management/node -> the best example i can give is new world -> albion also shares some of this.

What i would like to know is how the game is going to manage how high taxes can go because for me it ruins both Albion and new world. ( also in the video that poen shows - the taxes can go to 100%, I don't have any faith that people wont just it to 100% and ruin it for everyone - this happened in albion and new world already)

Taxes in Ashes will not work the same way they do in New World. The money stolen via taxes can only be used to upgrade the Node itself, so you can't use tax money to buy gear for your guild.

So if a mayor increases taxes to some stupid amount, people will just leave that Node and probably slam it.

Dygz

Haha. I mean... what Asmon says in the video is kinda intersting, but once a Node gets destroyed, it's not so easy to just rebuild it back up. The vassal Nodes will become dominant.
Plus, a Metro is one-fifth of the map, so, every Metro should have some ports.

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