Open world Raid/Boss Possible problems

Hi everyone, I state that I am new to the game and I have recently been interested in it so I do not know if this has been discussed previously or if information has already been provided to circumvent any problems that could arise in the scenarios I am imagining , in case if someone could provide me the link of the post I would be grateful.

But no more chatter and let's get into the heart of my question!

As the title suggests, everything specifically concerns the bosses and dungeons Open World, being that those instantiated I do not think they can be influenced by the PVP.
Exactly, my concern is PVP during these events, or rather the griefing and monopolization that larger guilds can have on this content. (And don't tell me this won't happen, because it can and surely will)

Personally I am of the idea that PVP and PVE do not have to intertwine, if I want to do PVP I go to PVP and if I want to do PVE I go to PVE, generally if one wants to do one of the two things usually does not want to waste time doing it too the other one.
Obviously the game was thought of as the old Linege and the like, and being that it seems interesting to me I am also willing to accept the mixing of these features.
However being that the PVE endgame content should be the one that drops the best gear (from what I have understood at least) I see countless possibilities for griefing and trolling, I think that creating a type of activity that is blocked by other players, and therefore automatically excludes part of the server population, not because that population does not have the requirements, but only because there are stronger or more numerous players to block them out seems to me a fallacious system towards the community and the gameplay in general.

So my question is the following, how do the developers think to prevent the bad behaviors that will surely be created?
(We don't even have to wonder, 100% people will do this).

I wanted to thank those who decided to take the time to read the whole post and I hope to receive some interesting answers, perhaps even from a developer or CM himself who can clarify or give ideas to avoid problems.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Azherae

Hello. This topic is important to some members of this community.

The most recent discussion was in this topic.

It is recent, so it is probably okay to add your discussion points to that topic to continue it.

Asgerr

The only thing in place to prevent griefing is the potential corruption which the griefers will accrue, should a group of raiders decide not to fight back.

Otherwise griefing other raid groups is expected and accepted. Of course not all raids and dungeons will be open world, some 20% of them will be instanced.

Alternatively some groups can hire other players to run interference against griefers, whilst they focus on the raid.

If another group comes in to attack the same boss, the loot will be granted to the those who tagged it and/or dealt over X% of damage. After that, it's a free for all PvP scenario either way.

This sort of player conflict is at the core of the game and the devs don't seem intent on preventing it, save for the odd high level player deciding to kill low level players for shits and giggles.

Songcaller

Wow. The amount of people claiming a simple pvp invasion is griefing seem to be too numerous. Why would you consider an invasion to steal a world boss to be griefing exactly? Griefing would be a whole raid stood at the access point not letting anyone attack said boss. Not a second raid turning up and invading said boss to take said boss.

Talents

Kardin wrote: »

Personally I am of the idea that PVP and PVE do not have to intertwine, if I want to do PVP I go to PVP and if I want to do PVE I go to PVE, generally if one wants to do one of the two things usually does not want to waste time doing it too the other one.

And I personally completely disagree with you on that. I hate how modern MMOs separate PvE and PvP into two separate areas instead of intertwining the systems as they should be.

Intrepid don't plan to stop people from monopolising bosses. They've answered it before that if a guild does monopolise bosses, then other guilds should band together to stop them. It's a player run world after all.

Asgerr

Neurath wrote: »

Wow. The amount of people claiming a simple pvp invasion is griefing seem to be too numerous. Why would you consider an invasion to steal a world boss to be griefing exactly? Griefing would be a whole raid stood at the access point not letting anyone attack said boss. Not a second raid turning up and invading said boss to take said boss.

I think it more of a: what if someone comes in and kills you, to prevent you from killing the boss. Not so much a case of: I'm coming in and trying to steal the kill.

Songcaller

All is fair in love and war. There will be times when the world boss simply won't be of value to a particular raid group/guild. That does not mean said raid group/guild wants potential enemies to benefit from the loot from the world boss. I live by quite free flow rules having played on PvP Servers in most games. I still don't count an invasion as griefing and you've described an invasion. It makes no difference if the invaders are RPers who have declared the world boss their leader, or, if its a local guild who decides they don't want foreigners to take the loot.

All in all, I still wouldn't count it as griefing. The very words used in the OP shows that the OP just isn't suited to PvX.

Morg7x7

The Truth is nobody really knows how any of these systems will play out yet, We don't know how many bosses or raids will be active at one time, how they are triggered, how frequently they respawn or how many times a player can loot them, all these things can dictate how contested the content becomes.

I'm hoping smaller more casual guilds can hang out in a quiet corner of the map and summon a boss to play with.

EdH

i think the system should be fine as is. any guild looking to take down a world boss will surely have other groups or allies in the area to fight off those who would try to compete for the boss. should be fine.

Kardin

Neurath wrote: »

Wow. The amount of people claiming a simple pvp invasion is griefing seem to be too numerous. Why would you consider an invasion to steal a world boss to be griefing exactly? Griefing would be a whole raid stood at the access point not letting anyone attack said boss. Not a second raid turning up and invading said boss to take said boss.

It seems i did not explain myself well, if a open world boss need, for example, 40 ppl do to it, and another 80 ppl (all from another guild) come to fight for it, i think is ok, BUT if 700 ppl camp the boss on respawn just to not let other do it (with "other" i dont mean the enemy of their guild, i mean literally every other ppl on the server) that is a bad choise of design, we are not kid anymore and we are not in L2, i personally work 8h a day (normal timework i think), sleep 8h (otherwise i will not perform at work) and in general i can play maybe 1h to 3h a day, and like me probably 70% of the world, if I (like any other person) need to rally 700 ppl from all across the server all from different guilds and probably from different timezone just to fight for something that at least a try on it should be guaranteed, that will be super difficoult to pull off and even if you manage to do it, only a certain amount of ppl can loot the boss (I think I have read 8/16/40 based on the content).

Personally I think that a good solution could be for example to make the loot collectible 1 time a week per character and maybe the boss have it spawn 3 to 6 times a day, so that there are no incentives to camp the boss if not to prevent your own enemies to do it. This will reduce the ppl that will stay there since they can gain nothing to do so and will help ppl with less time to play, like me.

Songcaller

I believe the world bosses will only spawn in peak times (Can't remember which livestream the notion comes from or indeed if the facts have changed). I do not believe a lot of people will spawn camp the World Bosses because I believe they won't have a static spawn - at least I hope they won't have a static spawn.

There is nothing to stop people from camping a world boss site though. If they want to waste time you can just enter the local dungeons or even the local raid if you know the toughest guild in the region is sat spawn camping the world boss.

You can also mobilise a whole alliance to take on a world boss - maximum 900 players. It will almost be impossible for 900 players to camp a world boss 24/7. It would be far easier for 900 players to turn up and wipe the spawn campers aside.

bloodprophet

They have also said there will be content that only a very small percentage of players will be able to complete.
Your concern sounds like a community concern not an intrepid concern. If someone is capable of holding a mob of 900 people together to guard a world boss 24/7 then more power to them and more world and world bosses for the rest of us.
Verra should feel big and take time to get where your going if 900 people are all standing around in one place waiting for something to spawn let them. That just means there is so many others things they are not competing for as they stand around doing a dance party.

Warth

@Noaani is this your alt account?

Kidding aside,

Talents wrote: »

Kardin wrote: »

Personally I am of the idea that PVP and PVE do not have to intertwine, if I want to do PVP I go to PVP and if I want to do PVE I go to PVE, generally if one wants to do one of the two things usually does not want to waste time doing it too the other one.

And I personally completely disagree with you on that. I hate how modern MMOs separate PvE and PvP into two separate areas instead of intertwining the systems as they should be.

Intrepid don't plan to stop people from monopolising bosses. They've answered it before that if a guild does monopolise bosses, then other guilds should band together to stop them. It's a player run world after all.

Perfect answer Talents.
I don't think i have much to add to this, I'd merely want to point out once more, that what OP proclaims as a problem is indeed an intended possibility by the developers.

If there is a guild locking you out from the boss, then band together and murder that guild. Its that simple. If you can't do that, then you probably don't deserve the boss kill in the first place.

@Kardin also, maybe another thing that might be interesting to you.
Steven mentioned in the Live AMA back in 2020, that there are 12-15 relevant raid bosses planned to be in the world. Regional and Dungeon spawned bosses not included. If some of them are monopolized by a guild, then either contest them or go for another, there is plenty of choice planned. If you can't contest a single one of those bosses, then you might want to surround yourself with better teammates.

Hatham

Warth wrote: »

@Noaani is this your alt account?

Kidding aside,

Talents wrote: »

Kardin wrote: »

Personally I am of the idea that PVP and PVE do not have to intertwine, if I want to do PVP I go to PVP and if I want to do PVE I go to PVE, generally if one wants to do one of the two things usually does not want to waste time doing it too the other one.

And I personally completely disagree with you on that. I hate how modern MMOs separate PvE and PvP into two separate areas instead of intertwining the systems as they should be.

Intrepid don't plan to stop people from monopolising bosses. They've answered it before that if a guild does monopolise bosses, then other guilds should band together to stop them. It's a player run world after all.

Perfect answer Talents.
I don't think i have much to add to this, I'd merely want to point out once more, that what OP proclaims as a problem is indeed an intended possibility by the developers.

If there is a guild locking you out from the boss, then band together and murder that guild. Its that simple. If you can't do that, then you probably don't deserve the boss kill in the first place.

doesn't even have to be many just a few people going around killing the healers and the raid will wipe.
- this happened in AA and other pve world bosses where players could pvp.
- if you separate pvp and pve then it kills the need for one of them in the long run.

Warth

Hatham wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

@Noaani is this your alt account?

Kidding aside,

Talents wrote: »

Kardin wrote: »

Personally I am of the idea that PVP and PVE do not have to intertwine, if I want to do PVP I go to PVP and if I want to do PVE I go to PVE, generally if one wants to do one of the two things usually does not want to waste time doing it too the other one.

And I personally completely disagree with you on that. I hate how modern MMOs separate PvE and PvP into two separate areas instead of intertwining the systems as they should be.

Intrepid don't plan to stop people from monopolising bosses. They've answered it before that if a guild does monopolise bosses, then other guilds should band together to stop them. It's a player run world after all.

Perfect answer Talents.
I don't think i have much to add to this, I'd merely want to point out once more, that what OP proclaims as a problem is indeed an intended possibility by the developers.

If there is a guild locking you out from the boss, then band together and murder that guild. Its that simple. If you can't do that, then you probably don't deserve the boss kill in the first place.

doesn't even have to be many just a few people going around killing the healers and the raid will wipe.
- this happened in AA and other pve world bosses where players could pvp.
- if you separate pvp and pve then it kills the need for one of them in the long run.

then bring a second and third raid to protect your healers @Hatham

Azherae

Warth wrote: »

Hatham wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

@Noaani is this your alt account?

Kidding aside,

Talents wrote: »

Kardin wrote: »

Personally I am of the idea that PVP and PVE do not have to intertwine, if I want to do PVP I go to PVP and if I want to do PVE I go to PVE, generally if one wants to do one of the two things usually does not want to waste time doing it too the other one.

And I personally completely disagree with you on that. I hate how modern MMOs separate PvE and PvP into two separate areas instead of intertwining the systems as they should be.

Intrepid don't plan to stop people from monopolising bosses. They've answered it before that if a guild does monopolise bosses, then other guilds should band together to stop them. It's a player run world after all.

Perfect answer Talents.
I don't think i have much to add to this, I'd merely want to point out once more, that what OP proclaims as a problem is indeed an intended possibility by the developers.

If there is a guild locking you out from the boss, then band together and murder that guild. Its that simple. If you can't do that, then you probably don't deserve the boss kill in the first place.

doesn't even have to be many just a few people going around killing the healers and the raid will wipe.
- this happened in AA and other pve world bosses where players could pvp.
- if you separate pvp and pve then it kills the need for one of them in the long run.

then bring a second and third raid to protect your healers @Hatham

At what point does it stop being a 'raid' and become a 'zerg' at that point?

This is a genuine question, because I count '3 raids' as between 100 and 120 people.

But I don't know what people consider 'zerg tactics' levels of people, in modern MMOs, I guess.

Warth

Azherae wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

Hatham wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

@Noaani is this your alt account?

Kidding aside,

Talents wrote: »

Kardin wrote: »

Personally I am of the idea that PVP and PVE do not have to intertwine, if I want to do PVP I go to PVP and if I want to do PVE I go to PVE, generally if one wants to do one of the two things usually does not want to waste time doing it too the other one.

And I personally completely disagree with you on that. I hate how modern MMOs separate PvE and PvP into two separate areas instead of intertwining the systems as they should be.

Intrepid don't plan to stop people from monopolising bosses. They've answered it before that if a guild does monopolise bosses, then other guilds should band together to stop them. It's a player run world after all.

Perfect answer Talents.
I don't think i have much to add to this, I'd merely want to point out once more, that what OP proclaims as a problem is indeed an intended possibility by the developers.

If there is a guild locking you out from the boss, then band together and murder that guild. Its that simple. If you can't do that, then you probably don't deserve the boss kill in the first place.

doesn't even have to be many just a few people going around killing the healers and the raid will wipe.
- this happened in AA and other pve world bosses where players could pvp.
- if you separate pvp and pve then it kills the need for one of them in the long run.

then bring a second and third raid to protect your healers @Hatham

At what point does it stop being a 'raid' and become a 'zerg' at that point?

This is a genuine question, because I count '3 raids' as between 100 and 120 people.

But I don't know what people consider 'zerg tactics' levels of people, in modern MMOs, I guess.

Obviously you don't want to bring 120 people. Why would you want to preoccupy 120 people, if really only takes 40 people to clear the content. Those 80 won't see much benefit, but it still tops not getting the boss kill at all. That's pretty much the price of a PvX encounter.

The only thing I'd like Intrepid to make sure is, that only 40 people are engaged with the raid boss, while the others have guard duty or even better (from my point of view) -> first do the PvP, and the raid that is left standing may challenge the boss for an attempt. That would be my optimal scenario, which unfortunately Intrepid doesn't seem to consider.

George_Black

The design will not change. It is intended based on previous games. The people back then did not worry about what you seem to be worried about.
Yes big guilds would camp some times. Then enemy big guilds would attack them and the area would clear for some time. That's life.
You havent addressed anything that hasn't been done many times alrdy. Go to another raid boss if that one is guarded. The map is big. And no, raids wont drop the best gear EXCLUSIVELY. The best gear is crafted.

Hatham

Warth wrote: »

Hatham wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

@Noaani is this your alt account?

Kidding aside,

Talents wrote: »

Kardin wrote: »

Personally I am of the idea that PVP and PVE do not have to intertwine, if I want to do PVP I go to PVP and if I want to do PVE I go to PVE, generally if one wants to do one of the two things usually does not want to waste time doing it too the other one.

And I personally completely disagree with you on that. I hate how modern MMOs separate PvE and PvP into two separate areas instead of intertwining the systems as they should be.

Intrepid don't plan to stop people from monopolising bosses. They've answered it before that if a guild does monopolise bosses, then other guilds should band together to stop them. It's a player run world after all.

Perfect answer Talents.
I don't think i have much to add to this, I'd merely want to point out once more, that what OP proclaims as a problem is indeed an intended possibility by the developers.

If there is a guild locking you out from the boss, then band together and murder that guild. Its that simple. If you can't do that, then you probably don't deserve the boss kill in the first place.

doesn't even have to be many just a few people going around killing the healers and the raid will wipe.
- this happened in AA and other pve world bosses where players could pvp.
- if you separate pvp and pve then it kills the need for one of them in the long run.

then bring a second and third raid to protect your healers @Hatham

That's the thing your gonna get people that become aware your raid group -> and attack the group or even randoms that wander into the fight.

Last thing you want is the entire server hearing about the raid and crashing it to steal the kill.

Songcaller

I think we went against scaling in the scaling dev discussion. I was ambivalent about it either way < I only remember my stance on the matter because it was so long ago lol.

Ludullu

Kardin wrote: »

that is a bad choise of design, we are not kid anymore and we are not in L2, i personally work 8h a day (normal timework i think), sleep 8h (otherwise i will not perform at work) and in general i can play maybe 1h to 3h a day, and like me probably 70% of the world

Now just a quick question. Back in those L2 days, were you always the oldest kid around? Were there only kids playing the game? Because back when I played L2, I was usually the youngest person in my guild. I talked with 40-50y.o. dudes with wives and kids who, yes, played only for 2-3h a day if that, but they enjoyed the game to the fullest and the guild would just get more people who played during a different time to pad out their spawn camping shifts.

Yes, you've become old, but instead of being selfish and thinking about only your own benefits, try to think about the current younger people who might want to experience the same thing you did back then. If you have 1h to play the game - do so and enjoy that 1h. If you can't enjoy the game w/o getting everything presented to you on a silver platter - mmos are no longer for you.

Child Item