Caravan Worry

My biggest worry is caravans in general. It seems like the economy is very important in AoC and caravans are going to be the main driver behind it. From what I understand players could theoretically stunt a nodes growth or inhibit a siege by stopping caravans. I fear that this will cause the game to become a caravan babysitting/camping game, or that everyone will find it so tedious they will just ignore the system all together. I really don't want this game to become a caravan simulator. I actually would not mind an exploration of removing the whole system from the game and replacing it with things like mount upgrades that make it visually obvious that someone is a trader. Then that person can hire people to protect them or the guild can allocate members to be protectors of guild merchants. This would leave the importance of trade value to the player. Right now the caravan system feels too complex and tedious while also being so important you have to interreact with it even if you don't want to, which has been a problem with many systems in other MMO games.

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Dygz

FastLoaf wrote: »

My biggest worry is caravans in general. It seems like the economy is very important in AoC and caravans are going to be the main driver behind it. From what I understand players could theoretically stunt a nodes growth or inhibit a siege by stopping caravans. I fear that this will cause the game to become a caravan babysitting/camping game, or that everyone will find it so tedious they will just ignore the system all together. I really don't want this game to become a caravan simulator.

Well…test it in Alpha 2 and see.

Bullvinne

I understand your worry, but I think until we see the caravan system in action, its too soon to call for complete changes.

I think the whole Gathering/Processing/Crafting/Caravan system looks interesting, and I hope it works, but seems so complicated that I wonder if it could fall apart in practicality.

For example:

Since we have to choose to be only a Gatherer, Processor, or Crafter; I can see a huge bottle-neck in the early start of the game for both Processors and Crafters since they cannot gather their own materials.

I feel what is going to happen is that once the game starts, EVERYONE will be gatherers at first since there will be no supply of materials to process or craft with, then after a few weeks/month or so, some will likely break off into processing once their is supply up. Oh but then either the nodes will need to be leveled up and have processing equipment OR those players have to have a freehold (Which is hard to get). Then once processed materials are readily available will others go into crafting.

ALL of that is only if you can switch between gathering/processing/crafting on one character. If not, then you will have crafters and processors sitting around for a while, twiddling their thumbs until gathered mats start coming in from the gatherers.

Then you have the risk of carrying gathering materials on you, or in a caravan...

Its a pretty interesting system and I do hope it works well. I just see that there is a chance for it to not work out like the developers are hoping since there are soooo many moving parts to the system.

neuroguy

FastLoaf wrote: »

Right now the caravan system feels too complex and tedious while also being so important you have to interreact with it even if you don't want to...

Would you like to unpack that? What part of it is complex, what part is tedious and why is it 'so important' from your perspective?

TheWolfofGar

I think another important thing to consider is you only need to caravan if your are moving your materials from point a to b, in most instances people will likely start gathering and focusing on resources centralized to their primary node, meaning they wont need to caravan at all.

FastLoaf wrote: »

My biggest worry is caravans in general. It seems like the economy is very important in AoC and caravans are going to be the main driver behind it. From what I understand players could theoretically stunt a nodes growth or inhibit a siege by stopping caravans. I fear that this will cause the game to become a caravan babysitting/camping game, or that everyone will find it so tedious they will just ignore the system all together.

When you want to make a merchant run given the lack of fast travel you will be making the journey from a-b regardless so using the caravan and timing it with a few friends or mercs will be a part of the rp aspect or you can brave it alone. I don't think there will be many instances when you will be simply sending caravans across the world unattended and if you are you accept that risk, unless you are gathering far from home and stockpiling in a nearby node, but even then it would make sense to escort the resources home when you are done your gathering.

As for raiding caravans to prevent a node leveling or important siege equipment from arriving I think that is actually a tactic that should be encouraged. imagine 4/5 metropolis have been made and you and another t5 node are nearing the final stretch it would be silly to simply let resources get to your rival city have supplies arriving consistently you should be actively working to undermine them. For sieges it seems obvious to me that you would need to defend those en route, why would I let someone bring a trebuchet to my doorstep when I can destroy it in open pvp with no corruption risk. As well as undermine the enemy siege in the process.

I think caravans will likely be far less frequent then you fear I think well likely see early on smaller caravans then as nodes develop people organize larger scheduled caravan runs which promise safety and consistency, as well as smaller runs which try to out race these large slow runs. Or see guilds take on the role of Caravan Guard where for a fee they'll escort your goods if you need to keep gathering or working away from home

Hatham

i don't think people will use them much after the first try tbh maybe mules will take off but i just dont see people pve'ers specifically wanting to risk it.

Okeydoke

I have worries about the caravan system too. I don't like 100% loss systems - systems where the loser loses 100% of their items. I liked Archeage's system, where the person who killed you, when they turned in your stolen trade pack, they got 65% of the value, but you still got 35%.

Caravans are going to be important though, apparently. To the extent that I believe Intrepid's intention is to track a leaderboard on it, who successfully completes the most caravans, who successfully defends the most, who successfully attacks and steals the most etc.

And important to the economy too. I dunno, there's too many unknowns at this point to even guess how the system will turn out.

Asgerr

Okeydoke wrote: »

I have worries about the caravan system too. I don't like 100% loss systems - systems where the loser loses 100% of their items. I liked Archeage's system, where the person who killed you, when they turned in your stolen trade pack, they got 65% of the value, but you still got 35%.

Well, whilst a part of it is sunk, the rest is open for looting. Meaning you don't lose all of it if you managed to loot some of it back.

Additionally you can get insurance on the caravan.

There is a system driven way for players to co-op caravan trips; and essentially you have the driver or the owner of the caravan preps the caravan for launch at the caravanserai‎, which is the node building that launches the caravans, and he can make a selection to allow designated players or members of his party to reserve space within the caravan; and they may then upload their goods into the caravan at the caravanserai‎ by interfacing with the UI there; and there can even be an agreement for insurance should the caravan be destroyed. Let's say you find a driver who's run many successful missions and you're confident in their ability to deliver you may not ask for insurance; but if this is a new person who doesn't have an established reputation on the server for being a successful caravan driver then you can request insurance; and that's an option that the owner of the caravan has to enable; and when you interface with that UI window there will be the amount of insurance that will be placed in escrow and given to you should the caravan not make it to its destination, or should the caravan's goods be lost. So there is mechanical systems in place to provide that type of interaction. We feel that interaction is good, it's fun; it helps encourage the social interaction that's important to an MMORPG but also it provides an outlet for players who may not wish to actually drive a caravan or launch a caravan or own a good caravan to transport their goods to piggyback with other players.– Steven Sharif

Voxtrium

Caravans will be a difficult balancing act for IS. Definitely a test first change later kinda thing.

Okeydoke

Asgerr wrote: »

Well, whilst a part of it is sunk, the rest is open for looting. Meaning you don't lose all of it if you managed to loot some of it back.

Additionally you can get insurance on the caravan.

True. At the end of the day I trust Intrepid to design the system in a way that makes sense, isn't easily exploitable, with a good balance of risk and reward, not lopsided to either end.

I think they'll get it done. They have to. So while I have worries, I'm not really WORRIED.

FastLoaf

neuroguy wrote: »

FastLoaf wrote: »

Right now the caravan system feels too complex and tedious while also being so important you have to interreact with it even if you don't want to...

Would you like to unpack that? What part of it is complex, what part is tedious and why is it 'so important' from your perspective?

From what I understand you go to a caravancery and pick your caravan, then its perks, then load it up, then select where it starts and then follow it to it's destination. This also includes loading it with goods from probably multiple people, so building a party.

This may not be "too" complex like I stated above, but it is definitely complex enough to cause people to just flat out ignore it as a system.

I personally find that this could also be tedious if I have to do it every time I want to move large amounts of goods and I find that if the game becomes a caravan simulator then that also would be tedious.

mcstackerson

FastLoaf wrote: »

neuroguy wrote: »

FastLoaf wrote: »

Right now the caravan system feels too complex and tedious while also being so important you have to interreact with it even if you don't want to...

Would you like to unpack that? What part of it is complex, what part is tedious and why is it 'so important' from your perspective?

From what I understand you go to a caravancery and pick your caravan, then its perks, then load it up, then select where it starts and then follow it to it's destination. This also includes loading it with goods from probably multiple people, so building a party.

This may not be "too" complex like I stated above, but it is definitely complex enough to cause people to just flat out ignore it as a system.

I personally find that this could also be tedious if I have to do it every time I want to move large amounts of goods and I find that if the game becomes a caravan simulator then that also would be tedious.

Not sure if you know by your comment but you drive personal caravans.

If caravans aren't for you then don't do them and just sell/buy from those who do. The less people doing them, the more profitable they are.

Savic Prosperity

im on the test first side of it for sure since there is a lot to test
but i also know that if i can manually carry it where i want myself, even in a smaller quantity, i may be willing to waste several hours walking back and forth as opposed to opening myself up to a more guaranteed attack for one trip

also what do we want the expected success rates to be for the defender vs attacker?
If it was like 50/50 i'd pretty much never use the caravan to get my stuff around unless insurance was an exploitable system, which i wouldnt want that either.

but if it was like 95/5 with 5 being the attack chance of success, while the overall loss i dont perceive as being as bad, would not be worth the attackers time either. Although at this rate I would actually use the system in favor of walking my items everywhere

the caravan system is one of the things i liked the concept of in archage when i played it at its release year but hated the execution since all it turned into was extremely large groups of people waiting for you to go down the caravan path + max gear max level required to really partake

tautau

Run your caravans during non-peak server hours, take back roads, sneak them through the underworld...

Dygz

FastLoaf wrote: »

From what I understand you go to a caravancery and pick your caravan, then its perks, then load it up, then select where it starts and then follow it to it's destination. This also includes loading it with goods from probably multiple people, so building a party.

This may not be "too" complex like I stated above, but it is definitely complex enough to cause people to just flat out ignore it as a system.

I personally find that this could also be tedious if I have to do it every time I want to move large amounts of goods and I find that if the game becomes a caravan simulator then that also would be tedious.

I think that's for Mayoral and Quest Driven Nodes.
Players can also hire NPC mercenaries to tag along.
I guess it might feel too complex for certain playstyles.
It won't feel too complex for other playstyles.

WHIT3ROS3

I really don't see how Caravans are "too complex". They are essentially just more elaborate transport quests/ tasks seen in multiple games. You transport a Caravan from A to B by linking it to your mount. What's too complex about that? The addition of caravan stats to make it stronger/faster/bulkier is cool. I think as long as the "loot" being transported is worth it then it will be fun.

I wonder if there will be Caravan-type missions/quests or if they'll be interwoven into questlines? Like the transportation of some important person or item. Like you have to escort a caravan with a bald man and a dwarf hiding inside

Blip

Bullvinne wrote: »

I understand your worry, but I think until we see the caravan system in action, its too soon to call for complete changes.

I think the whole Gathering/Processing/Crafting/Caravan system looks interesting, and I hope it works, but seems so complicated that I wonder if it could fall apart in practicality.

For example:

Since we have to choose to be only a Gatherer, Processor, or Crafter; I can see a huge bottle-neck in the early start of the game for both Processors and Crafters since they cannot gather their own materials.

I feel what is going to happen is that once the game starts, EVERYONE will be gatherers at first since there will be no supply of materials to process or craft with, then after a few weeks/month or so, some will likely break off into processing once their is supply up. Oh but then either the nodes will need to be leveled up and have processing equipment OR those players have to have a freehold (Which is hard to get). Then once processed materials are readily available will others go into crafting.

ALL of that is only if you can switch between gathering/processing/crafting on one character. If not, then you will have crafters and processors sitting around for a while, twiddling their thumbs until gathered mats start coming in from the gatherers.

Then you have the risk of carrying gathering materials on you, or in a caravan...

Its a pretty interesting system and I do hope it works well. I just see that there is a chance for it to not work out like the developers are hoping since there are soooo many moving parts to the system.

We can all do low level\ starter gathering and processing, but you will need to specialise after a short period of time. SO in the beginning everyone will be doing everything.

DarkTides

What's so valuable about a Caravan that you'd even want to attack it to begin with? Why would anyone attack a caravan that carries lumber, if you can get it yourself?

And then how do you carry it all? If you captured Caravans...then took the Caravan to where you want it to go....destroying Caravans if you want to sabotage a trade route, and pillaging very little if it can be carried easily... is what should happen...what happens in reality? The closer you get to reality, the more exciting it should get since our imagination is based off of, and simulating, what we know to occur, but you need systems and rules in place to make that happen.

Castle Sieges..people fleeing from a siege...Caravans would be used by players who wish to get all of their items out asap. What happens in War? You burn their stuff or capture it and haul it back...you do not put it in your magic infinite space pockets.

Resources running out, with particular resources being limited to certain areas. Capturing a Caravan with these resources would be useful...bringing back small amounts in your bags otherwise... but I'm worried about the ruleset for what you can carry not really lining up with everything else.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Resource_locations
-Some resources will be one-time gatherables that will randomly respawn at a different location once collected.
-Other resources will exist as a cluster (also called vein gatherables). These will last until the full resource is depleted.
-There will be moving resources such as herds of animals that are constantly moving around the world.
-Once a vein resource is depleted from one location it may respawn in the same location or somewhere else, depending on the type of resource
-Resources respawn on a cooldown basis.
-Resources won't be locked to the node system.
-Some unique resources may be monsters in disguise or have monsters defending them

The mention of trade routes is where I'd like to see a continual link between harvesting locations, and the transport of goods from that place back to the node, although this seems to be between nodes.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Economy#Trade_routes
-From a diplomatic standpoint the ability for the mayor or citizens to set up NPC routed trade routes between nodes as a trade agreement or as a diplomatic process.[178] – Steven Sharif

Aeskill

Kinda have the feeling that there'll be so many caravans out at once, so that it really doesn't make sense to camp any specific player/caravan (e.g. it's going to be very hard regarding the insane map size). At least thats what i hope for

However i also think that there will be some "advantagious routes" which are predestined for attacking caravans (maybe like the openwater). Comes all down to balancing i guess!

FastLoaf

mcstackerson wrote: »

FastLoaf wrote: »

neuroguy wrote: »

FastLoaf wrote: »

Right now the caravan system feels too complex and tedious while also being so important you have to interreact with it even if you don't want to...

Would you like to unpack that? What part of it is complex, what part is tedious and why is it 'so important' from your perspective?

From what I understand you go to a caravancery and pick your caravan, then its perks, then load it up, then select where it starts and then follow it to it's destination. This also includes loading it with goods from probably multiple people, so building a party.

This may not be "too" complex like I stated above, but it is definitely complex enough to cause people to just flat out ignore it as a system.

I personally find that this could also be tedious if I have to do it every time I want to move large amounts of goods and I find that if the game becomes a caravan simulator then that also would be tedious.

Not sure if you know by your comment but you drive personal caravans.

If caravans aren't for you then don't do them and just sell/buy from those who do. The less people doing them, the more profitable they are.

This is actually one of the issues I am worried about, people choosing to not do them. If more then 50% of people don't start them but more than 50% of people will raid them then the risk becomes much higher than the reward. I can see caravans being raided so much that they just become not viable at all, which would effect the economy in a heavy way. This is could drastically slow node progression down since they need to import resources to develop.

FastLoaf

I do trust intrepid to not be so attached to a system that they would keep it if it is not working to make the game good.

I also agree it should be tested.

In the end I see that nodes really depend on imports to develop, and if the raiding of caravans has too high of a success rate compared to successful caravan deliveries then players might ignore the system and force the node progression to a crawl.

I do however think that it will probably be safer to move caravans more safely with in the group of vassal nodes, so maybe setting up the trade network that way might be a good way to combat too much raiding.

In the end I guess the alpha 2 will give a lot of feedback on the system.

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