PvX tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward

Reading the recent threads regarding the Lawless Open Sea, i saw a sentiment from people more PvE oriented, it seems like they believe that the open seas are a area with PvX more tilted towards PvP High Risk vs High Reward and it made think of the possibility of a Area with PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward.

In this thread, i would like people to discuss and give their opinions and ideas towards the concept of "PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward".

Let me provide an idea:

Lorewise we know the Underrealm is the place the people who weren't able to leave from Verra fled to escape from corruption, how about making the Underrealm a Area with PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward.

How so? How about making it an area where you gain more corruption when killing players, killing monsters and death reduces less corruption, monsters there are stronger than monsters on land or sea, you receive PK death penalty when dying to monsters there, some monsters can spawn and ambush you there and the place is as rewarding as the open seas.

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Azherae

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Reading the recent threads regarding the Lawless Open Sea, i saw a sentiment from people more PvE oriented, it seems like they believe that the open seas are a area with PvX more tilted towards PvP High Risk vs High Reward and it made think of the possibility of a Area with PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward.

In this thread, i would like people to discuss and give their opinions and ideas towards the concept of "PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward".

Let me provide an idea:

Lorewise we know the Underrealm is the place the people who weren't able to leave from Verra fled to escape from corruption, how about making the Underrealm a Area with PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward.

How so? How about making it an area where you gain more corruption when killing players, killing monsters and death reduces less corruption, monsters there are stronger than monsters on land or sea, you receive PK death penalty when dying to monsters there, some monsters can spawn and ambush you there and the place is as rewarding as the open seas.

I'd be opposed to this, but I think I count as "PvP oriented", so not sure I'm the opinion you're looking for.

It goes against the reasons I personally have interest in this game. At that point I might as well play Throne and Liberty (given my other preferences for game design).

I dislike stratification, I further dislike the separation of PvP and PvE players that I would expect to follow this, and I don't like the ramifications of the effects it would have on the geopolitical landscapes of the game and Nodes (as I see it).

JamesSunderland

Azherae wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Reading the recent threads regarding the Lawless Open Sea, i saw a sentiment from people more PvE oriented, it seems like they believe that the open seas are a area with PvX more tilted towards PvP High Risk vs High Reward and it made think of the possibility of a Area with PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward.

In this thread, i would like people to discuss and give their opinions and ideas towards the concept of "PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward".

Let me provide an idea:

Lorewise we know the Underrealm is the place the people who weren't able to leave from Verra fled to escape from corruption, how about making the Underrealm a Area with PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward.

How so? How about making it an area where you gain more corruption when killing players, killing monsters and death reduces less corruption, monsters there are stronger than monsters on land or sea, you receive PK death penalty when dying to monsters there, some monsters can spawn and ambush you there and the place is as rewarding as the open seas.

I'd be opposed to this, but I think I count as "PvP oriented", so not sure I'm the opinion you're looking for.

It goes against the reasons I personally have interest in this game. At that point I might as well play Throne and Liberty (given my other preferences for game design).

I dislike stratification, I further dislike the separation of PvP and PvE players that I would expect to follow this, and I don't like the ramifications of the effects it would have on the geopolitical landscapes of the game and Nodes (as I see it).

Your opinion is valid, as a "PvP Oriented" player aswell i do certainly agree with you specially on the "dislikes", even tho it wouldn't be something that would make me prefer to play "Throne and Liberty over Ashes" it would certainly diminish from the game in my point of view.

Azherae

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Reading the recent threads regarding the Lawless Open Sea, i saw a sentiment from people more PvE oriented, it seems like they believe that the open seas are a area with PvX more tilted towards PvP High Risk vs High Reward and it made think of the possibility of a Area with PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward.

In this thread, i would like people to discuss and give their opinions and ideas towards the concept of "PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward".

Let me provide an idea:

Lorewise we know the Underrealm is the place the people who weren't able to leave from Verra fled to escape from corruption, how about making the Underrealm a Area with PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward.

How so? How about making it an area where you gain more corruption when killing players, killing monsters and death reduces less corruption, monsters there are stronger than monsters on land or sea, you receive PK death penalty when dying to monsters there, some monsters can spawn and ambush you there and the place is as rewarding as the open seas.

I'd be opposed to this, but I think I count as "PvP oriented", so not sure I'm the opinion you're looking for.

It goes against the reasons I personally have interest in this game. At that point I might as well play Throne and Liberty (given my other preferences for game design).

I dislike stratification, I further dislike the separation of PvP and PvE players that I would expect to follow this, and I don't like the ramifications of the effects it would have on the geopolitical landscapes of the game and Nodes (as I see it).

Your opinion is valid, as a "PvP Oriented" player aswell i do certainly agree with you specially on the "dislikes", even tho it wouldn't be something that would make me prefer to "Throne and Liberty over Ashes" it would certainly diminish from the game in my point of view.

I haven't seen many opinions from PvE oriented players yet though, other than Dygz? (I'm admittedly worried about that, so I expect some bias to come through here)

So for the sake of checking my bias, who are you talking about?

Mag7spy

Just to humor the idea it could be timer base where you gain corruption the longer you are in the area so it becomes kind of a race against time once you go in through the entrance.

The deep you go the more corruption you gain from lingering in the area going up towards 1-5 levels making the tick increase grow as you go into more dangerous areas. Though upon entering from the entrance you gain a bubble that gives you a large buffer from actually being corrupted. As well you can only gain so much corruption from the area before you reach max stacks (to prevent max corruption gain) Once you reach the max, it lowers you maximum hp at a smaller amount and it will continue until you die.

Death to mobs or to corruption stack ticks make you drop all the items in your inventory and destroying it on the spot so it can not be reclaimed. If someone pks you though and takes the corruption hit the items are available to be picked up but each item take adds more corruption to your character

Upon adventuring in the area taking items also add corruption to your character drop wise you you are unable to take everything without also risk. But like the self protective bubble you get on entering there can be some drops the replenish those drops, as well as finding rare random spawn things throughout the dungeon that also replenish the buff by a certain percent.

So it becomes a very hard dungeon the deeper you go the better the loot but the higher chance you have of also losing what you gained from within it. If you make it to the deepest part of the dungeon you will be able to make it to the boss dealing with its mechanics and trying to ensure you keep your protective barrier up to not end up dying and losing everything.

Upon defeating the boss you simply need to escape back where you came from for whoever is left being a survivor and trying to not die to the corruption or the monsters that have respawned.

Mag7spy

Who cares if the idea is good or bad, its a fun one, make a thing and see what people say. Can lead to good ideas.

JamesSunderland

Azherae wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Reading the recent threads regarding the Lawless Open Sea, i saw a sentiment from people more PvE oriented, it seems like they believe that the open seas are a area with PvX more tilted towards PvP High Risk vs High Reward and it made think of the possibility of a Area with PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward.

In this thread, i would like people to discuss and give their opinions and ideas towards the concept of "PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward".

Let me provide an idea:

Lorewise we know the Underrealm is the place the people who weren't able to leave from Verra fled to escape from corruption, how about making the Underrealm a Area with PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward.

How so? How about making it an area where you gain more corruption when killing players, killing monsters and death reduces less corruption, monsters there are stronger than monsters on land or sea, you receive PK death penalty when dying to monsters there, some monsters can spawn and ambush you there and the place is as rewarding as the open seas.

I'd be opposed to this, but I think I count as "PvP oriented", so not sure I'm the opinion you're looking for.

It goes against the reasons I personally have interest in this game. At that point I might as well play Throne and Liberty (given my other preferences for game design).

I dislike stratification, I further dislike the separation of PvP and PvE players that I would expect to follow this, and I don't like the ramifications of the effects it would have on the geopolitical landscapes of the game and Nodes (as I see it).

Your opinion is valid, as a "PvP Oriented" player aswell i do certainly agree with you specially on the "dislikes", even tho it wouldn't be something that would make me prefer to "Throne and Liberty over Ashes" it would certainly diminish from the game in my point of view.

I haven't seen many opinions from PvE oriented players yet though, other than Dygz? (I'm admittedly worried about that, so I expect some bias to come through here)

So for the sake of checking my bias, who are you talking about?

In the forum Dygz was definitely the main inspiration of this thread, but also more "PvE oriented" people i personaly know, a few people in the ashes reddit and ashes youtube comments(definitelly not alot of people).

Azherae

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Reading the recent threads regarding the Lawless Open Sea, i saw a sentiment from people more PvE oriented, it seems like they believe that the open seas are a area with PvX more tilted towards PvP High Risk vs High Reward and it made think of the possibility of a Area with PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward.

In this thread, i would like people to discuss and give their opinions and ideas towards the concept of "PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward".

Let me provide an idea:

Lorewise we know the Underrealm is the place the people who weren't able to leave from Verra fled to escape from corruption, how about making the Underrealm a Area with PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward.

How so? How about making it an area where you gain more corruption when killing players, killing monsters and death reduces less corruption, monsters there are stronger than monsters on land or sea, you receive PK death penalty when dying to monsters there, some monsters can spawn and ambush you there and the place is as rewarding as the open seas.

I'd be opposed to this, but I think I count as "PvP oriented", so not sure I'm the opinion you're looking for.

It goes against the reasons I personally have interest in this game. At that point I might as well play Throne and Liberty (given my other preferences for game design).

I dislike stratification, I further dislike the separation of PvP and PvE players that I would expect to follow this, and I don't like the ramifications of the effects it would have on the geopolitical landscapes of the game and Nodes (as I see it).

Your opinion is valid, as a "PvP Oriented" player aswell i do certainly agree with you specially on the "dislikes", even tho it wouldn't be something that would make me prefer to "Throne and Liberty over Ashes" it would certainly diminish from the game in my point of view.

I haven't seen many opinions from PvE oriented players yet though, other than Dygz? (I'm admittedly worried about that, so I expect some bias to come through here)

So for the sake of checking my bias, who are you talking about?

In the forum Dygz was definitely the main inspiration of this thread, but also more "PvE oriented" people i personaly know, a few people in the ashes reddit and ashes youtube comments(definitelly not alot of people).

Ok, thanks, if it's not here specifically, it saves me checking my parser... but my worry/bias remains

Ludullu

I haven't read all the new threads (cause Genshin removed me from the face of the earth for a week), but my main argument against the "pve-leaning content" thing would be that instances exist (and potentially could increase in numbers), while the open seas could be seen as just a different form of caravan pvp zoning.

Steven said that we'll have other means of travel between continents, so all the intercontinental trade would just be the same as the caravans running within the continents - a pvp zone.

BaSkA_9x2

One thing that interested me in Ashes was the fact that there would be no segregation of zone rulesets and no segregation of the player base. RIP that.

Vaknar

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Reading the recent threads regarding the Lawless Open Sea, i saw a sentiment from people more PvE oriented, it seems like they believe that the open seas are a area with PvX more tilted towards PvP High Risk vs High Reward and it made think of the possibility of a Area with PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward.

In this thread, i would like people to discuss and give their opinions and ideas towards the concept of "PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward".

Let me provide an idea:

Lorewise we know the Underrealm is the place the people who weren't able to leave from Verra fled to escape from corruption, how about making the Underrealm a Area with PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward.

How so? How about making it an area where you gain more corruption when killing players, killing monsters and death reduces less corruption, monsters there are stronger than monsters on land or sea, you receive PK death penalty when dying to monsters there, some monsters can spawn and ambush you there and the place is as rewarding as the open seas.

This is certainly an interesting idea. I would counter with - if an area is more dangerous in terms of PvE elements, would that not incentivize players to group up, rather than kill one another, more so than an area that might incentivize more PvP behavior? In theory, that alone may accomplish player tendencies for PvE.

I should clarify, that these are just my own immediate thoughts and I'm not on the design team, lol! 😜

Azherae

Vaknar wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Reading the recent threads regarding the Lawless Open Sea, i saw a sentiment from people more PvE oriented, it seems like they believe that the open seas are a area with PvX more tilted towards PvP High Risk vs High Reward and it made think of the possibility of a Area with PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward.

In this thread, i would like people to discuss and give their opinions and ideas towards the concept of "PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward".

Let me provide an idea:

Lorewise we know the Underrealm is the place the people who weren't able to leave from Verra fled to escape from corruption, how about making the Underrealm a Area with PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward.

How so? How about making it an area where you gain more corruption when killing players, killing monsters and death reduces less corruption, monsters there are stronger than monsters on land or sea, you receive PK death penalty when dying to monsters there, some monsters can spawn and ambush you there and the place is as rewarding as the open seas.

This is certainly an interesting idea. I would counter with - if an area is more dangerous in terms of PvE elements, would that not incentivize players to group up, rather than kill one another, more so than an area that might incentivize more PvP behavior? In theory, that alone may accomplish player tendencies for PvE.

I should clarify, that these are just my own immediate thoughts and I'm not on the design team, lol! 😜

Well, responding to this purely as if you were any other poster...

Intrepid implied we are supposed to group up anyway. If we weren't grouping up whenever we could as part of the core design of the main game, I feel like we'd already have a different problem relative to the goals set out.

So I'd definitely consider 'grouped up' to already be the baseline, particularly for even remotely rewarding PvE. I don't really see 'these enemies are strong enough to require a 16 man group instead' as a good method, as that increases stratification even further, I think.

SongRune

Vaknar wrote: »

This is certainly an interesting idea. I would counter with - if an area is more dangerous in terms of PvE elements, would that not incentivize players to group up, rather than kill one another, more so than an area that might incentivize more PvP behavior? In theory, that alone may accomplish player tendencies for PvE.

I should clarify, that these are just my own immediate thoughts and I'm not on the design team, lol! 😜

It does. But only by specifically incentivizing PvP in the area.

If a group is up against the toughest PvE content they can handle, that means that there's little room for error (or they'd be able to handle more), and it doesn't take much to upset the balance. This means that it doesn't take much for a PvP attack to make the content unwinnable. The less margin you have for error, the less margin you have for recovering from interference. Enemy guilds know they will have an even easier time stopping their competition from getting whatever gear or materials. So you do group up more, but it comes in the form of "bringing another group to protect you from the inevitable PvP attack, just so you have any chance of completing your PvE content". I'm not sure that's what most PvE-tilted players were looking for. It sounds like just "standard Ashes" to me.

JamesSunderland

Vaknar wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Reading the recent threads regarding the Lawless Open Sea, i saw a sentiment from people more PvE oriented, it seems like they believe that the open seas are a area with PvX more tilted towards PvP High Risk vs High Reward and it made think of the possibility of a Area with PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward.

In this thread, i would like people to discuss and give their opinions and ideas towards the concept of "PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward".

Let me provide an idea:

Lorewise we know the Underrealm is the place the people who weren't able to leave from Verra fled to escape from corruption, how about making the Underrealm a Area with PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward.

How so? How about making it an area where you gain more corruption when killing players, killing monsters and death reduces less corruption, monsters there are stronger than monsters on land or sea, you receive PK death penalty when dying to monsters there, some monsters can spawn and ambush you there and the place is as rewarding as the open seas.

This is certainly an interesting idea. I would counter with - if an area is more dangerous in terms of PvE elements, would that not incentivize players to group up, rather than kill one another, more so than an area that might incentivize more PvP behavior? In theory, that alone may accomplish player tendencies for PvE.

I should clarify, that these are just my own immediate thoughts and I'm not on the design team, lol! 😜

Yes, an area with more dangerous PvE elements would certainly incentivize random players to group up in parties instead of going at eachothers throats, but the game is already tilted towards group gameplay anyway.

So when thinking about "dangerous areas" i think of an area that pretty much "requires" atleast a group(8man party) to handle it.

In the Open Seas context which is already expected to have dangerous PvE elements, i believe the majority of its dwellers are going to be pre-made groups that are able to deal with its PvE and would therefore not have the need of further grouping up to deal with said PvE(Other than bosses) and would only group up further if the necessity to deal with other biggers/stronger groups in PvP arises.

Okeydoke

I would be opposed to this. Not like Dygz and a couple other's level of "I'm quitting" opposition, nowhere close. But pretty opposed to it. I've already run through scenarios in my head of how garbage this would end up being, not only garbage, but pointless too.

Outside of going ultra insane mode with pve difficulty, it just can't compete with the dynamic and dangerous nature of pvp. I'd hope that Intrepid is making pve content across the land as difficult as they're willing to make it, in all places. I don't see a need for some special place you go for extra hard pve when that's kinda what most want anyway by default, where appropriate.

Tit for tat game design is a horrible way to design games. The open sea was made lawless. This makes sense conceptually and from a gameplay perspective. You can not like it. But it makes sense.

Increase corruption gain for killing in cities. This makes sense conceptually and arguably from a gameplay perspective. Done.

You start playing tit for tat on every design decision you're going to wind up with a Frankenstein of a game with no coherence, just a gigantic mess.

George_Black

Why concede? Why give legitimacy to people that claim that AoC PvX claims was false?

I say no to the fragmentation of the playerbase. I have spoke against PvP areas and I will speak against areas in which PK will be strongly restricted. Why create a haven for people to progress without fear of confrontation?

People need to understand that just like sieges and caravans (no corruption pvp), naval combat requires a lot of crafting and loss of property for all involved. It's not for casuals, not for RPers, not for PvP haters. There is a lot more to it than what PvErs call "mindless pvp zone".

Why be apologetic? No.

Dolyem

I will have to go with a no as long as corruption holds up as it is intended so far. It is already pretty severe in my opinion. And seeing as corruption is active on literally every ZOI, thats enough of a balance to me. Having open ocean content be more hostile makes sense, and its away from all of the major systems in the game besides caravans, and those would have to deal with the same problems even if autoflagged pvp wasnt a thing in the ocean.

Savic Prosperity

in a way, the pinnacle of pve difficulty just can not be achieved with an open world pvp system
if you think of world first progging from the themepark mmos of ffxiv's Ultimates and wow's (i dont play wow so i dont know what its called) and allowed random people to kill them while doing the hardest content, it would ruin it for everyone. That isnt to say you cant have hard pve encounters with a pvp system but you wouldnt want to make something that hard when someone else can interrupt it so easily

my opinion about being a bit more pve oriented normally is the fact that someone else can specifically waste my time when im doing my own stuff and be rewarded for it.
Free time being able to be tossed out the window for no cost for the person attacking me is a 'feels bad' experience. I wouldnt want to try to reverse this experience.
So I dont think there is a pve equivalent for the game allowing people to waste time for a pvp person with the same feeling. The closest example I can think of is while playing dark souls and getting invaded and just "randomly" losing internet connection when they found me when i just wanted to see the funny messages from people. Elden ring solved this issue imo and I wouldnt

Mind you i dont mind Ashes version of pvp, I may actually quite like it quite a bit since lots of group oriented stuff for pvp. AI do like the instanced pvp in new world and ffxiv so lol
If the entire game became free reign open world pvp i would still try it but i dont tend to enjoy gank bot games. It's what has kept me from trying mortal online 2? i think it was

JamesSunderland

George_Black wrote: »

Why concede? Why give legitimacy to people that claim that AoC PvX claims was false?

I say no to the fragmentation of the playerbase. I have spoke against PvP areas and I will speak against areas in which PK will be strongly restricted. Why create a haven for people to progress without fear of confrontation?

People need to understand that just like sieges and caravans (no corruption pvp), naval combat requires a lot of crafting and loss of property for all involved. It's not for casuals, not for RPers, not for PvP haters. There is a lot to it than what PvErs call "mindless pvp zone".

Why be apologetic? No.

Not sure if you noticed George, but i am only playing Devil's Advocate through this half-baked idea, don't worry, there no "concession" or "apology", i'm only in the pursuit of MMORPG PvE Oriented players ideas and opinions that would somehow work in Ashes PvX setting as a soother to their loud cries(considering they are a majority in the MMORPG space taking WoW and FFXIV in consideration) without compromising(if it is even possible) the game's clear PvX vision, certainly the well stablished Ashes forum wasn't the best place for this search as most of the frequent users here certainly comprehend the essence and inspirations of the game.
A bit clueless? Probably, but still worth a shot.

Okeydoke

I get you James. There's a little bit of pvp apologist in most of us. There really shouldn't be, but there is. I don't view it as a bad thing, more of a human thing, a desire to be reasonable and conciliatory.

Inasmuch as a game can, it should accommodate both camps. But some concepts between the camps are just incompatible, they'd break each other, or otherwise be impossible to implement both.

I think George's point is...ask yourself, where are the pve apologists? Come pick me up on your unicorn, let's go find them. I'll be waiting on the front lawn with my pet dodo bird. lol

Edit: It's not even about pvp vs pve. I like both. Many do. It's more about theme park vs sandbox, modern mmo philosophy vs old mmo philosophy, everyone's a winner vs having to work at winning...on and on etc. Some of these things are highly incompatible.

Dolyem

To be completely honest I would not be against some instanced dungeons/raids. Just make the open world ones have better gear. Like bottom tier raid gear but you could even treat those raids like guides to the open world content just by giving a taste of mechanics. Maybe make it where those items cant be traded and cant be salvaged so it doesn't become a material farm for bots/gold farmers. Obviously still make them engaging and fun, but keep them at a sort of "starter" tier. But I by no means think the game NEEDS it, that would just be a small compromise I wouldn't be against for the sake of less experienced MMO players and PVEers.

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