Enemy NPC combat

In my opinion I really like the player movement and combat, however I absolutely hate that the enemy NPC's have locked on damage.. Once an enemy locks on to you its Impossible for it to miss its attacks. When Steven was showcasing the archer every shaman that was attacking him NEVER missed an attack, so it becomes less skill in killing a mob and more kill it before it kills you... I don't like this. I like being able to dodge enemy attacks to save my life I should be able to kill a mob while I have 1 HP as long as I am dodging attacks properly... the way it was in the demonstration was more of if I'm at 1 HP its impossible to be within the enemy's attack range because if they are able to get an attack off I'm dead automatically. I hope this gets some love before alpha 2.

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Azherae

AngryBosn wrote: »

In my opinion I really like the player movement and combat, however I absolutely hate that the enemy NPC's have locked on damage.. Once an enemy locks on to you its Impossible for it to miss its attacks. When Steven was showcasing the archer every shaman that was attacking him NEVER missed an attack, so it becomes less skill in killing a mob and more kill it before it kills you... I don't like this. I like being able to dodge enemy attacks to save my life I should be able to kill a mob while I have 1 HP as long as I am dodging attacks properly... the way it was in the demonstration was more of if I'm at 1 HP its impossible to be within the enemy's attack range because if they are able to get an attack off I'm dead automatically. I hope this gets some love before alpha 2.

This game leans more toward Tab Targeting, so I believe you are expected to raise your Evasion Stat in order to do this.

The goal being to raise it high enough that the enemy does not get you low enough to begin with due to missing.

The specifics of when exactly that Evasion is applied and how powerful it is, would probably be open to feedback, but it's been explained that 'RNG Chance To Miss' is part of this game.

AngryBosn

Thats understandable, its just a big disappointment for me in a game that has goals of being such a "Hardcore Game". that it would apply such a simplistic system for combat.

Azherae

AngryBosn wrote: »

Thats understandable, its just a big disappointment for me in a game that has goals of being such a "Hardcore Game". that it would apply such a simplistic system for combat.

I believe the idea that Ashes was ever going to be a 'Hardcore Game' was something of a conflation from people who heard 'In this game, your choices will matter' and 'We are targeting Hybrid Combat' and assumed that the two of those things were related in a way they aren't.

Then expanding from there to a lot of other things. Ashes isn't very Hardcore, it's probably average when all MMOs are considered (the further back you go, the more hardcore games generally are, which is why updating old games or making things like Ashes that are based on them, tend to make people think they will be 'more hardcore').

Ludullu

I prefer having dmg mitigation abilities and other defensive stuff that would help me avoid death. Also, a single mob type doesn't indicate a general pattern of design. These shamans might have tracking magic missiles while some other mob might have a faster flying action magic missile.

Also, we don't know how exactly the terrain interaction will work with tab targeted abilities. If we can break the cast, or just make it fail, by going behind a cover - you'll be able to use dodges to avoid dmg.

And on top of that you'll have i-frames on some dodge abilities https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Evasion

joshisanonymous

Dealing with bows doesn't have to be about twitch skills for there to still be skill involved. It could depend on a lot of things. As has already been mentioned, maybe evade or block RNG will be at play, but also, what's the range on arrows? Because that brings positioning into play. Can arrows pass through objects in the world? Because that brings positioning further into play. Can bows shots be interrupted and by what? Because that brings timing into play. I didn't watch the archery reveal, so maybe they talked about this stuff, but I very much doubt that it will be as simple as "you are targeted, therefore you take damage."

Strevi

AngryBosn wrote: »

In my opinion I really like the player movement and combat, however I absolutely hate that the enemy NPC's have locked on damage.. Once an enemy locks on to you its Impossible for it to miss its attacks. When Steven was showcasing the archer every shaman that was attacking him NEVER missed an attack, so it becomes less skill in killing a mob and more kill it before it kills you... I don't like this. I like being able to dodge enemy attacks to save my life I should be able to kill a mob while I have 1 HP as long as I am dodging attacks properly... the way it was in the demonstration was more of if I'm at 1 HP its impossible to be within the enemy's attack range because if they are able to get an attack off I'm dead automatically. I hope this gets some love before alpha 2.

Indeed, their shots arched toward him when he dodged.
Makes no sense to even try avoiding.

AngryBosn

Azherae wrote: »

AngryBosn wrote: »

Thats understandable, its just a big disappointment for me in a game that has goals of being such a "Hardcore Game". that it would apply such a simplistic system for combat.

I believe the idea that Ashes was ever going to be a 'Hardcore Game' was something of a conflation from people who heard 'In this game, your choices will matter' and 'We are targeting Hybrid Combat' and assumed that the two of those things were related in a way they aren't.

Then expanding from there to a lot of other things. Ashes isn't very Hardcore, it's probably average when all MMOs are considered (the further back you go, the more hardcore games generally are, which is why updating old games or making things like Ashes that are based on them, tend to make people think they will be 'more hardcore').

Steven said it himself, he said that this game is "NOT" going to cater to the casual gamers, and that there is no "Board, or group committee that help fund this that can force him to cater to the casuals. Its funded to completion by him. That is where I am getting the "hardcore" idea.

Azherae

AngryBosn wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

AngryBosn wrote: »

Thats understandable, its just a big disappointment for me in a game that has goals of being such a "Hardcore Game". that it would apply such a simplistic system for combat.

I believe the idea that Ashes was ever going to be a 'Hardcore Game' was something of a conflation from people who heard 'In this game, your choices will matter' and 'We are targeting Hybrid Combat' and assumed that the two of those things were related in a way they aren't.

Then expanding from there to a lot of other things. Ashes isn't very Hardcore, it's probably average when all MMOs are considered (the further back you go, the more hardcore games generally are, which is why updating old games or making things like Ashes that are based on them, tend to make people think they will be 'more hardcore').

Steven said it himself, he said that this game is "NOT" going to cater to the casual gamers, and that there is no "Board, or group committee that help fund this that can force him to cater to the casuals. Its funded to completion by him. That is where I am getting the "hardcore" idea.

Right, we agree I think?

From the perspective of 'can you experience most of it alone', the game is very hardcore. From the perspective of 'are you protected from conflict', it's quite Hardcore. Some other things, we don't know for sure yet, but seem to have gone in the direction of 'very Hardcore' (builds, social organizations, guilds, economy).

Ashes is fairly Hardcore in most of those things (by today's standards).

Combat is not one of those things where we have ever been told 'The Combat of this game will be fairly hardcore', that I can remember. It's always been more of a 'we'll see how it goes', 'If we have to choose we'll fall back to Tab Target', 'we don't want Animation Cancels', and so on.

Also, I don't think Steven has ever said 'this game isn't going to cater to the casual gamers', he has almost always limited that to "Casual Gamers might not be able to be the big winners" or "You won't really do well in this game if you don't have social connections to at least your Node".

In fact, I think Steven has specifically pointed out multiple times 'how the game caters to solo players and casuals', and all the combat we have experienced and seen so far reflects that, both in PvE and PvP.

maouw

it's been explained that 'RNG Chance To Miss' is part of this game

ah. This is news to me.

That's a bit disappointing... leads to more "stand still coz I have the stats to do it" gameplay.
So be it.

Azherae

maouw wrote: »

it's been explained that 'RNG Chance To Miss' is part of this game

ah. This is news to me.

That's a bit disappointing... leads to more "stand still coz I have the stats to do it" gameplay.
So be it.

Note that while it's probably unlikely, as I noted, this doesn't HAVE to be this way.

There's still at least potential for 'implementing this so that the Evasion stat is mostly only applied when the player is moving in SOME way. It might lead to some evasion builds literally 'just wiggling back and forth' but without that RNG chance-to-miss, we'd have been doing that anyway, or 'having to build a different mitigation to deal with basic attacks' and then STILL 'standing still because we have the stats to do it' for those.

This has a lot more to do with enemy design, and that choice, than the RNG existing as a baseline.

Magic Man

That bothered me as well...When they said that they're working on ''mob AI'', this wasn't what i thought of 😅 But ye as others pointed out, it's still kinda early to judge and other mobs may have non locked on abilities that deal more damage...or not idk at this point 😂

Songcaller

There are many issues I see in the demos. Namely, they would rather enact cheats to showcase the game than run content in the sane way a normal player would. Its one thing yo keep stating we need to be grouped in the game and another for all the demos to be solo.

Perhaps the mobs always hit to force you to group with a tank and healer. Either way, its still a tank and spank game with a dps race thrown in. Make sense why they don't want combat trackers.

SongRune

Neurath wrote: »

There are many issues I see in the demos. Namely, they would rather enact cheats to showcase the game than run content in the sane way a normal player would. Its one thing yo keep stating we need to be grouped in the game and another for all the demos to be solo.

Perhaps the mobs always hit to force you to group with a tank and healer. Either way, its still a tank and spank game with a dps race thrown in. Make sense why they don't want combat trackers.

I disagree that "cheat mode" is an issue in this type of demo. They are specifically not demoing "gameplay". They are demoing "ranger abilities". While turning off cheats and focusing on real gameplay experiences would be good for gameplay demo, it's inefficient for an initial class/ability design demonstration. "Cheat mode" keeps the class/ability demonstration focused.

Songcaller

If you want to show skills then find a mannequin or combat scarecrow. If you want feedback on the basic abilities we should see how the basic abilities stand up to the test. It's not good to state 'When I'm at 1 hp imagine I've been killed'. If the basic attacks get you killed repeatedly then the game play loop should show that. How can anyone herald the basic attacks in any light when the light is shaded by cheats.

Sapiverenus

Azherae wrote: »

AngryBosn wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

AngryBosn wrote: »

Thats understandable, its just a big disappointment for me in a game that has goals of being such a "Hardcore Game". that it would apply such a simplistic system for combat.

I believe the idea that Ashes was ever going to be a 'Hardcore Game' was something of a conflation from people who heard 'In this game, your choices will matter' and 'We are targeting Hybrid Combat' and assumed that the two of those things were related in a way they aren't.

Then expanding from there to a lot of other things. Ashes isn't very Hardcore, it's probably average when all MMOs are considered (the further back you go, the more hardcore games generally are, which is why updating old games or making things like Ashes that are based on them, tend to make people think they will be 'more hardcore').

Steven said it himself, he said that this game is "NOT" going to cater to the casual gamers, and that there is no "Board, or group committee that help fund this that can force him to cater to the casuals. Its funded to completion by him. That is where I am getting the "hardcore" idea.

Right, we agree I think?

From the perspective of 'can you experience most of it alone', the game is very hardcore. From the perspective of 'are you protected from conflict', it's quite Hardcore. Some other things, we don't know for sure yet, but seem to have gone in the direction of 'very Hardcore' (builds, social organizations, guilds, economy).

Ashes is fairly Hardcore in most of those things (by today's standards).

Combat is not one of those things where we have ever been told 'The Combat of this game will be fairly hardcore', that I can remember. It's always been more of a 'we'll see how it goes', 'If we have to choose we'll fall back to Tab Target', 'we don't want Animation Cancels', and so on.

Also, I don't think Steven has ever said 'this game isn't going to cater to the casual gamers', he has almost always limited that to "Casual Gamers might not be able to be the big winners" or "You won't really do well in this game if you don't have social connections to at least your Node".

In fact, I think Steven has specifically pointed out multiple times 'how the game caters to solo players and casuals', and all the combat we have experienced and seen so far reflects that, both in PvE and PvP.

remember that going outside will always be more hardcore :^)

Azherae

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

AngryBosn wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

AngryBosn wrote: »

Thats understandable, its just a big disappointment for me in a game that has goals of being such a "Hardcore Game". that it would apply such a simplistic system for combat.

I believe the idea that Ashes was ever going to be a 'Hardcore Game' was something of a conflation from people who heard 'In this game, your choices will matter' and 'We are targeting Hybrid Combat' and assumed that the two of those things were related in a way they aren't.

Then expanding from there to a lot of other things. Ashes isn't very Hardcore, it's probably average when all MMOs are considered (the further back you go, the more hardcore games generally are, which is why updating old games or making things like Ashes that are based on them, tend to make people think they will be 'more hardcore').

Steven said it himself, he said that this game is "NOT" going to cater to the casual gamers, and that there is no "Board, or group committee that help fund this that can force him to cater to the casuals. Its funded to completion by him. That is where I am getting the "hardcore" idea.

Right, we agree I think?

From the perspective of 'can you experience most of it alone', the game is very hardcore. From the perspective of 'are you protected from conflict', it's quite Hardcore. Some other things, we don't know for sure yet, but seem to have gone in the direction of 'very Hardcore' (builds, social organizations, guilds, economy).

Ashes is fairly Hardcore in most of those things (by today's standards).

Combat is not one of those things where we have ever been told 'The Combat of this game will be fairly hardcore', that I can remember. It's always been more of a 'we'll see how it goes', 'If we have to choose we'll fall back to Tab Target', 'we don't want Animation Cancels', and so on.

Also, I don't think Steven has ever said 'this game isn't going to cater to the casual gamers', he has almost always limited that to "Casual Gamers might not be able to be the big winners" or "You won't really do well in this game if you don't have social connections to at least your Node".

In fact, I think Steven has specifically pointed out multiple times 'how the game caters to solo players and casuals', and all the combat we have experienced and seen so far reflects that, both in PvE and PvP.

remember that going outside will always be more hardcore :^)

You live in that part of the world, huh? You have my sympathies on that. I hope that whatever turmoil is occurring in your region is resolved soon in a way that involves minimal bloodshed.

Sapiverenus

Azherae wrote: »

You live in that part of the world, huh? You have my sympathies on that. I hope that whatever turmoil is occurring in your region is resolved soon in a way that involves minimal bloodshed.

Do your sympathies actually extend to those living in such regions of the world, like Detroit?

In high school someone i know got held up by some big dude with a knife. They were in high school too and on the edge of its property a bit out of sight; the guy with the knife was probably just out of high school or something.

Every urban, most sub-urban, and even rural area of the world is "that sort of region" you fuckin' . . .

Do you leave the house? Or talk to people?

I live in the Pacific Northwest of the USA. Your idea of turmoil?

Azherae

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

You live in that part of the world, huh? You have my sympathies on that. I hope that whatever turmoil is occurring in your region is resolved soon in a way that involves minimal bloodshed.

Do your sympathies actually extend to those living in such regions of the world, like Detroit?

In high school someone i know got held up by some big dude with a knife. They were in high school too and on the edge of its property a bit out of sight; the guy with the knife was probably just out of high school or something.

Every urban, most sub-urban, and even rural area of the world is "that sort of region" you fuckin' . . .

Do you leave the house? Or talk to people?

I live in the Pacific Northwest of the USA. Your idea of turmoil?

Yep.

Sapiverenus

@Azherae
what part of the world are you from?

Gangnamkid

I think if you dodge roll in a perfect time you shouldn't get damaged because if you just stand there DPS it down is gonna be boring and repeatable since its hybrid and they lean more on tab targeting but the content is just gonna be bland and the PVP is gonna lean more and mages that has skillshots locked on target
this game fits the dark souls mechanics but with some extra touches
and the game will be more enjoyable from this one small thing

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