AOC combat == skill

Lets be honest, the worry about tab gameplay is that the combat will be rotation/positioning centric but not have a deeper skill ceiling that will allow players to feel like they are truly getting better as players outside of the games gear progression.

However we haven't seen the ability skill trees yet, nor the augments. Both of which Stephen has said will include abilities that are not allowed to be locked on using tab. Remember 25% action and 75% tab for your hotbar? Yes basic attacks will probably always use tab targeting in this game for PVP. In PVE we could definitely argue for some special cases where action targeting makes sense. (If I were them I'd release bosses with weak spots that cant be hit without using action targeting) That being said, abilities like spawning a wall, raining down a storm of arrows, other AOE centric abilities, will likely need to be placed by the player not locked n dropped. There are plenty of other possibilities as well, just give it a little thought.

At the end of the day ya if this game had no abilities and all you did was auto attack, its combat would be real lame, but this game is literally designing most of its gameplay around abilities, not basic attacks. (Think about augments and the number of ways to achieve them already announced to us)

What nobody is talking about is the good news regarding their verbiage when talking about synergy. Skill regarding tab targeting is the problem everyone worries about. However they have just told us that they are building these classes to synergize with themselves, and any developer with both sides of their brain thinking about how to synergize kits is going to synergize not just the individual players but teams of 8 (What they say they are balancing the game for). With that we also know synergy creates the true skill ceilings that provide that feeling of true improvement on the player side (think about mobas and why they are take so long to get good at).

So lets appreciate the extent of knowledge we don't have regarding development, and maybe take into account more of what they have said. These fear mongering post are weird. Maybe this one is too idk.

The combat in this game needs to function within the limits of our technology, funds of the company and all within a reasonable timeline so my argument really just boils down to, they talk the talk and so far walk the walk, so lets let them do continue doing that.

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McShave

I have a feeling the best players will be the ones that can jump between both combat modes to get the most effectiveness out of both. We will have to wait for testing to see what is really going on tho.

Also the combat looks really fast paced. Quicker reactions will lead to better performance. We are no longer in the age of old school mmos (and I am ok with that).

Mag7spy

Yup 100% will be the best players, though it is pretty easy to use tab skills, it will be the action side that will be more difficult to land. As long as the balance is right between tab and action skills.

Ludullu

Imo all they have to do is have more action skills, that interact with basic attack procs, than tab ones. You'll be able to trigger procs easily, but you'll have to use action abilities if you want to really get the maximum value out of those procs.

Dummo

Voxtrium wrote: »

However we haven't seen the ability skill trees yet, nor the augments. Both of which Stephen has said will include abilities that are not allowed to be locked on using tab. Remember 25% action and 75% tab for your hotbar? Yes basic attacks will probably always use tab targeting in this game for PVP. In PVE we could definitely argue for some special cases where action targeting makes sense. (If I were them I'd release bosses with weak spots that cant be hit without using action targeting) That being said, abilities like spawning a wall, raining down a storm of arrows, other AOE centric abilities, will likely need to be placed by the player not locked n dropped. There are plenty of other possibilities as well, just give it a little thought.

I'm fine with the mix between tab and action, just hope there's going to be more action abilities than just the non-damage and AoE ones. Also fine with weak spots on enemies, as long as Intrepid can stop cheaters from abusing it. I do wonder how action abilities that will require you to aim will work out if you're in the tab targeting camera mode. Bringing me to my point below.

McShave wrote: »

I have a feeling the best players will be the ones that can jump between both combat modes to get the most effectiveness out of both. We will have to wait for testing to see what is really going on tho.

Switching camera modes every few seconds could be tedious though, assuming your screen isn't (always) centered on your main target when you're in the tab targeting camera mode.

Voxtrium

Agreed @NiKr I think they would be another clever way to keep the hybrid element within the meta.

Sengarden

I have to say, I share some of the same concerns as @Dummo , primarily in regards to the player running a rotation relatively camera-blind to suddenly having to re-direct their camera angle directly at an enemy in the distance to execute a proc ability. I suppose you could qualify that as a skill, but an arguably annoying one to master and exercise. Ground targeted abilities are never an issue combining with tab skills, because they're relatively large, ground based targets that don't make you adjust your camera much if at all, but mixing a vague third person landscape / downward angle that generally keeps a full spread of your surroundings in view with intermittent, carefully timed, precise aiming directly in front of your character with a limited window of opportunity? Just sounds like it could be a bit jarring and not a very smooth process visually. But I do like the idea of having a decent amount of aimed skill shots. Especially given the damage it seems like they want abilities like Snipe to put out. That sort of thing should not be tab-target compatible. Archers either need to do high damage with a medium-to-high skill requirement to maintain, or have their damage softened a bit to make up for them being able to kite so easily and auto-target most of their abilities.

IMO, this hybrid system needs to lean more towards one side or the other, because trying to make both reticle skill-shots and blind tab firing work together seems like it can only turn out a bit rocky. If you make any part of the ranged system require players to have a good reticle aiming ability to get the most out of their class, the vast majority of tab-centric players will be upset that they're not able to maximize the archetype's potential. If you allow tab players the same ability to output damage as those who choose the more challenging path of utilizing more skill-based abilities, you'll get many action players complaining that their effort isn't worth the trouble of occasionally missing shots or hitting the wrong target in a pack, and likely switching to tab for the majority of content, making much of the effort put into the "hybrid" system a waste of time.

I don't want to be a downer, I just have a hard time seeing how Intrepid can actually blend reticle skillshots into a largely tab based rotation without it feeling clunky and jarring. Considering that the "action mode" they showed off in the stream is essentially a soft lock plug-in for the tab system, I'd hesitate to even call an action-targeted ability a skill shot. You stick your cursor anywhere on (or seemingly near) the target and it hits them square in their hitbox. You might as well make the skill shots accessible from tab target mode with a stylized arrow ground decal that moves with your cursor similar to WoW's ranged skillshots that hit the nearest enemy who's hitbox falls on the decal boundary. Both require nothing more than vaguely hovering your cursor over the target, just with a different camera angle and visual aid. I've personally never taken issue with that approach to skillshots in the past.

Dummo

Sengarden wrote: »

I have to say, I share some of the same concerns as @Dummo , primarily in regards to the player running a rotation relatively camera-blind to suddenly having to re-direct their camera angle directly at an enemy in the distance to execute a proc ability. I suppose you could qualify that as a skill, but an arguably annoying one to master and exercise. Ground targeted abilities are never an issue combining with tab skills, because they're relatively large, ground based targets that don't make you adjust your camera much if at all, but mixing a vague third person landscape / downward angle that generally keeps a full spread of your surroundings in view with intermittent, carefully timed, precise aiming directly in front of your character with a limited window of opportunity? Just sounds like it could be a bit jarring and not a very smooth process visually. But I do like the idea of having a decent amount of aimed skill shots. Especially given the damage it seems like they want abilities like Snipe to put out. That sort of thing should not be tab-target compatible. Archers either need to do high damage with a medium-to-high skill requirement to maintain, or have their damage softened a bit to make up for them being able to kite so easily and auto-target most of their abilities.

IMO, this hybrid system needs to lean more towards one side or the other, because trying to make both reticle skill-shots and blind tab firing work together seems like it can only turn out a bit rocky. If you make any part of the ranged system require players to have a good reticle aiming ability to get the most out of their class, the vast majority of tab-centric players will be upset that they're not able to maximize the archetype's potential. If you allow tab players the same ability to output damage as those who choose the more challenging path of utilizing more skill-based abilities, you'll get many action players complaining that their effort isn't worth the trouble of occasionally missing shots or hitting the wrong target in a pack, and likely switching to tab for the majority of content, making much of the effort put into the "hybrid" system a waste of time.

I don't want to be a downer, I just have a hard time seeing how Intrepid can actually blend reticle skillshots into a largely tab based rotation without it feeling clunky and jarring. Considering that the "action mode" they showed off in the stream is essentially a soft lock plug-in for the tab system, I'd hesitate to even call an action-targeted ability a skill shot. You stick your cursor anywhere on (or seemingly near) the target and it hits them square in their hitbox.

Agreed. Here's to hoping they implement it without it being tedious.

You might as well make the skill shots accessible from tab target mode with a stylized arrow ground decal that moves with your cursor similar to WoW's ranged skillshots that hit the nearest enemy who's hitbox falls on the decal boundary. Both require nothing more than vaguely hovering your cursor over the target, just with a different camera angle and visual aid. I've personally never taken issue with that approach to skillshots in the past.

I personally haven't played WoW, but the way you described it sounds like the way skillshots work in League of Legends. If that is the way you meant, I really like that idea actually.

Mag7spy

Sengarden wrote: »

I have to say, I share some of the same concerns as @Dummo , primarily in regards to the player running a rotation relatively camera-blind to suddenly having to re-direct their camera angle directly at an enemy in the distance to execute a proc ability. I suppose you could qualify that as a skill, but an arguably annoying one to master and exercise. Ground targeted abilities are never an issue combining with tab skills, because they're relatively large, ground based targets that don't make you adjust your camera much if at all, but mixing a vague third person landscape / downward angle that generally keeps a full spread of your surroundings in view with intermittent, carefully timed, precise aiming directly in front of your character with a limited window of opportunity? Just sounds like it could be a bit jarring and not a very smooth process visually. But I do like the idea of having a decent amount of aimed skill shots. Especially given the damage it seems like they want abilities like Snipe to put out. That sort of thing should not be tab-target compatible. Archers either need to do high damage with a medium-to-high skill requirement to maintain, or have their damage softened a bit to make up for them being able to kite so easily and auto-target most of their abilities.

IMO, this hybrid system needs to lean more towards one side or the other, because trying to make both reticle skill-shots and blind tab firing work together seems like it can only turn out a bit rocky. If you make any part of the ranged system require players to have a good reticle aiming ability to get the most out of their class, the vast majority of tab-centric players will be upset that they're not able to maximize the archetype's potential. If you allow tab players the same ability to output damage as those who choose the more challenging path of utilizing more skill-based abilities, you'll get many action players complaining that their effort isn't worth the trouble of occasionally missing shots or hitting the wrong target in a pack, and likely switching to tab for the majority of content, making much of the effort put into the "hybrid" system a waste of time.

I don't want to be a downer, I just have a hard time seeing how Intrepid can actually blend reticle skillshots into a largely tab based rotation without it feeling clunky and jarring. Considering that the "action mode" they showed off in the stream is essentially a soft lock plug-in for the tab system, I'd hesitate to even call an action-targeted ability a skill shot. You stick your cursor anywhere on (or seemingly near) the target and it hits them square in their hitbox. You might as well make the skill shots accessible from tab target mode with a stylized arrow ground decal that moves with your cursor similar to WoW's ranged skillshots that hit the nearest enemy who's hitbox falls on the decal boundary. Both require nothing more than vaguely hovering your cursor over the target, just with a different camera angle and visual aid. I've personally never taken issue with that approach to skillshots in the past.

This depends how they balance out systems, if it works one to one with 0 bonuses for extra effort then people will complain. This is why people are mentioning things early, as voicing increased difficulty and getting less is a issue in peoples eyes.

Ashes of creation combat should not be like top down league / dota style placing circles like you are playing a moba. That sounds terrible if they is what you were kind of suggesting. They just need a intuitive way for camera to be repositioned for action tyle skills or for them to be just used in front of you.

Sengarden

Mag7spy wrote: »

This depends how they balance out systems, if it works one to one with 0 bonuses for extra effort then people will complain. This is why people are mentioning things early, as voicing increased difficulty and getting less is a issue in peoples eyes.

Right, but the opposite side of the coin is that if they don't work one to one with 0 bonuses, then the higher skill system, action, will have the bonuses. And as we've all seen from many forum threads and polls, the majority of the current fanbase either prefers tab-centric combat or is ambivalent. Even if those threads and polls are skewed, I'd say it's at least a 50/50 split. This would likely lead to those people, at least half if not the majority of people following the game, taking issue with the skill ceiling being unattainable unless you're interested in and capable of mastering reticle skill-shots. So you can't fully win either way if both tab and true reticle action combat coexist, whether they're separately damage balanced or not.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Ashes of creation combat should not be like top down league / dota style placing circles like you are playing a moba. That sounds terrible if they is what you were kind of suggesting. They just need a intuitive way for camera to be repositioned for action tyle skills or for them to be just used in front of you.

It's worked well enough in other MMOs, but I understand if your only experience with them is in a MOBA, and if having them in an MMO would feel out of place. That being said, how else do you imagine players casting ranged ground-targeted AOE abilities? If you want pure blind-firing with every ranged ground-targeted AOE ability casting directly in front of the player, with the player having to learn exactly what the range and boundaries of those attacks are by sight alone, I can potentially get behind that, but I don't think tab players would like it much, as you'd be essentially forcing them to play tab while using the center of their screen as a "reticle" for aiming their ranged ground-targeted AOEs. Either that, or you'd have to have this camera switch be implemented for every ground-targeted ranged AOE attack and enemy-targeted ranged skillshot attack. With this, you also have to consider that ground-targeted ranged AOEs usually have a decent casting distance, and from a near dead-on reticle camera view, your perspective of the terrain as you get further away from your character covers a broader measure of ground length per unit of pixels on the screen as you near the horizon, causing the use of the center of the screen as a reticle to make judging the distance of those attacks very difficult (and not in a fun way).

For enemy-targeted skillshots at least, I can sort of visualize what a smooth camera transition would look like, but it would have to be more up-close and centered right over the player's shoulder. A smooth, but relatively quick transition, with the camera's distance from the player being locked in while aiming, that then pans back to the previous camera distance just as quickly after the skillshot is taken. So you press the ability of the key, the camera pans in, you aim and click or press the ability key again, and the camera pans back out. I imagine this sort of distance while aiming:

They could also implement a custom skillshot camera setting, where you go into the menu, click a button to reset it, have the interface hide the menus, allow you to adjust your camera for where you'd want the reticle to pan to when you activate a skillshot (how high above, far back from, and horizontally offset from your shoulder), and then save it to your character. You could even have different camera setups saved for solo play vs larger content in case you wanted to be farther away to see more ground effects or a broader view of what's in front of you in dungeons or OWPvP.

Azherae

At 1:00 ish of this, you see a situation where the reticle is pointed at the ground but because the skill is 'lateral across ground' or 'lateral once it reaches a certain height above ground, it hits the target in front anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wUyHG4xiOY

Do we consider that 'enough skill'?

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Do we consider that 'enough skill'?

To me, as long as the use of any particular ability accomplishes your current goal - you were skilled enough to use that ability. Pointing at a fastmoving mob's head is only important if your main goal is to only make headshots and nothing else. Or if it's a required mechanic for smth.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Do we consider that 'enough skill'?

To me, as long as the use of any particular ability accomplishes your current goal - you were skilled enough to use that ability. Pointing at a fastmoving mob's head is only important if your main goal is to only make headshots and nothing else. Or if it's a required mechanic for smth.

I don't consider this take valid relative to the conversations we're having, though.

By that reasoning, literally anything a game requires is skill.

I really doubt that's what's being discussed, and if it somehow is, it's so tautological as to not be worth engaging.

"AoC Combat is skilled because it has goals and you can achieve them."?

Dummo

Mag7spy wrote: »

Sengarden wrote: »

I have to say, I share some of the same concerns as @Dummo , primarily in regards to the player running a rotation relatively camera-blind to suddenly having to re-direct their camera angle directly at an enemy in the distance to execute a proc ability. I suppose you could qualify that as a skill, but an arguably annoying one to master and exercise. Ground targeted abilities are never an issue combining with tab skills, because they're relatively large, ground based targets that don't make you adjust your camera much if at all, but mixing a vague third person landscape / downward angle that generally keeps a full spread of your surroundings in view with intermittent, carefully timed, precise aiming directly in front of your character with a limited window of opportunity? Just sounds like it could be a bit jarring and not a very smooth process visually. But I do like the idea of having a decent amount of aimed skill shots. Especially given the damage it seems like they want abilities like Snipe to put out. That sort of thing should not be tab-target compatible. Archers either need to do high damage with a medium-to-high skill requirement to maintain, or have their damage softened a bit to make up for them being able to kite so easily and auto-target most of their abilities.

IMO, this hybrid system needs to lean more towards one side or the other, because trying to make both reticle skill-shots and blind tab firing work together seems like it can only turn out a bit rocky. If you make any part of the ranged system require players to have a good reticle aiming ability to get the most out of their class, the vast majority of tab-centric players will be upset that they're not able to maximize the archetype's potential. If you allow tab players the same ability to output damage as those who choose the more challenging path of utilizing more skill-based abilities, you'll get many action players complaining that their effort isn't worth the trouble of occasionally missing shots or hitting the wrong target in a pack, and likely switching to tab for the majority of content, making much of the effort put into the "hybrid" system a waste of time.

I don't want to be a downer, I just have a hard time seeing how Intrepid can actually blend reticle skillshots into a largely tab based rotation without it feeling clunky and jarring. Considering that the "action mode" they showed off in the stream is essentially a soft lock plug-in for the tab system, I'd hesitate to even call an action-targeted ability a skill shot. You stick your cursor anywhere on (or seemingly near) the target and it hits them square in their hitbox. You might as well make the skill shots accessible from tab target mode with a stylized arrow ground decal that moves with your cursor similar to WoW's ranged skillshots that hit the nearest enemy who's hitbox falls on the decal boundary. Both require nothing more than vaguely hovering your cursor over the target, just with a different camera angle and visual aid. I've personally never taken issue with that approach to skillshots in the past.

This depends how they balance out systems, if it works one to one with 0 bonuses for extra effort then people will complain. This is why people are mentioning things early, as voicing increased difficulty and getting less is a issue in peoples eyes.

Sengarden wrote: »

Right, but the opposite side of the coin is that if they don't work one to one with 0 bonuses, then the higher skill system, action, will have the bonuses.

There's pros and cons for both of the camera modes, there does not need to be an extra incentive to use either.

Ashes of creation combat should not be like top down league / dota style placing circles like you are playing a moba. That sounds terrible if they is what you were kind of suggesting. They just need a intuitive way for camera to be repositioned for action tyle skills or for them to be just used in front of you.

If they can figure that out, sure. I don't really see it happening without either having to drag your aim to the target you wish to hit when switching from tab targeting camera mode to reticle camera mode yourself, or the game centering your camera and thus reticle on your target automatically when switching from tab targeting camera mode to reticle camera mode. Both options seem tedious.

Sengarden wrote: »

For enemy-targeted skillshots at least, I can sort of visualize what a smooth camera transition would look like, but it would have to be more up-close and centered right over the player's shoulder. A smooth, but relatively quick transition, with the camera's distance from the player being locked in while aiming, that then pans back to the previous camera distance just as quickly after the skillshot is taken. So you press the ability of the key, the camera pans in, you aim and click or press the ability key again, and the camera pans back out.

I can only see this working if you already have your target centered on your screen in tab targeting camera mode, which certainly is not always the case.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

"AoC Combat is skilled because it has goals and you can achieve them."?

I meant it as smth on a smaller scale though. As in, in that clip, you had a mob that you wanted to hit and you hit it even though the reticle wasn't targeting the mob. The action skill still hit because the player knew its mechanics, had the goal of hitting the mob with said skill and had enough gamer skill to execute the action in such a way that achieved the goal.

If you were replying to the context of the walls of text, then I'll have to go read them, cause I kinda skipped them due to them being walls, and was just replying to your question in the context of the video you posted.

Dummo

Azherae wrote: »

At 1:00 ish of this, you see a situation where the reticle is pointed at the ground but because the skill is 'lateral across ground' or 'lateral once it reaches a certain height above ground, it hits the target in front anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wUyHG4xiOY

Do we consider that 'enough skill'?

It was aimed vertically aligned with the target - combined with the fact that the ability does not require you to aim exactly on a target, only vertically aligned - so I would say yes.

Ludullu

Dummo wrote: »

If they can figure that out, sure. I don't really see it happening without either having to drag your aim to the target you wish to hit when switching from tab targeting camera mode to reticle camera mode yourself, or the game centering your camera and thus reticle on your target automatically when switching from tab targeting camera mode to reticle camera mode. Both options seem tedious.

What if the camera centered on your mouse and the "tab" press had a short range which would make people aim more with their mouse to tab a target rather than just hitting "tab"?

L2 needed you to mouse click your targets because not only were there too many enemies on the screen to tab through them, but also because the "tab" function had a short range (far shorter than the ranged attacks one) so you had to have good "pixel hunting" skills.

Would that be considered "requiring skill" in the context of tab targeting? Cause to me it is, but I'm heavily biased towards that kind of mechanic.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Dummo wrote: »

If they can figure that out, sure. I don't really see it happening without either having to drag your aim to the target you wish to hit when switching from tab targeting camera mode to reticle camera mode yourself, or the game centering your camera and thus reticle on your target automatically when switching from tab targeting camera mode to reticle camera mode. Both options seem tedious.

What if the camera centered on your mouse and the "tab" press had a short range which would make people aim more with their mouse to tab a target rather than just hitting "tab"?

L2 needed you to mouse click your targets because not only were there too many enemies on the screen to tab through them, but also because the "tab" function had a short range (far shorter than the ranged attacks one) so you had to have good "pixel hunting" skills.

Would that be considered "requiring skill" in the context of tab targeting? Cause to me it is, but I'm heavily biased towards that kind of mechanic.

I also meant to ask you, in the same vein, just how MUCH 'detarget your opponent's tab lock' was there in Lineage at the higher levels?

Because at the moment, this is the main thing I can see making this system enjoyable for me rather than just 'something okay that I have to engage with and hope it is balanced better than it looks'.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

I also meant to ask you, in the same vein, just how MUCH 'detarget your opponent's tab lock' was there in Lineage at the higher levels?

Because at the moment, this is the main thing I can see making this system enjoyable for me rather than just 'something okay that I have to engage with and hope it is balanced better than it looks'.

Light armor had an augment that had a chance to detarget your attacker, so pretty much any class that used light armor could have this as their base. 2/3 rogues had detarget abilities, with all of them having a retarget one. Iirc Archer stun ability had a detarget. Elemental mages had a fucking detargeting aoe ability around their character (small range, so positioning mattered a lot). My favorite super OP mage class had a mid range single target attack with a detargeting chance.

I thiiink that's it. So considering the average party setup, only the fighter classes didn't have shit like that. But they'd quite often wear light armor because it gave them more dmg, so even there they'd have a chance at detargeting. And on top of that, quite often you'd have a dark elf rogue character in your fighter party because he had good debuffs.

In other words you had a shitton and quite often low-mid skill players would get absolutely lost if they lost their target, so the feature itself was really effective.

Edit: Oh! Also, there was one rogue that was literally all about detargeting. He had a top lvl buff that had a high chance to detarget and he had the light armor, the rogue detargeting and retargeting abilities. These motherfuckers were insanely annoying (they also had a pretty long dash buff, so mobility was through the roof too). They were also fat as fuck so usually you'd try to leave them for the last victim, but them being rogues meant that they could one or two shot your healer, so you had to deal with them in other ways more often than not. They had very mid dmg for a rogue and abilities could miss quite often, so that was the tradeoff.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I also meant to ask you, in the same vein, just how MUCH 'detarget your opponent's tab lock' was there in Lineage at the higher levels?

Because at the moment, this is the main thing I can see making this system enjoyable for me rather than just 'something okay that I have to engage with and hope it is balanced better than it looks'.

Light armor had an augment that had a chance to detarget your attacker, so pretty much any class that used light armor could have this as their base. 2/3 rogues had detarget abilities, with all of them having a retarget one. Iirc Archer stun ability had a detarget. Elemental mages had a fucking detargeting aoe around their character (small range, so positioning mattered a lot). My favorite super OP mage class had a mid range single target attack with a detargeting chance.

I thiiink that's it. So considering the average party setup, only the fighter classes didn't have shit like that. But they'd quite often wear light armor because it gave them more dmg, so even there they'd have a chance at detargeting. And on top of that, quite often you'd have a dark elf rogue character in your fighter party because he had good debuffs.

In other words you had a shitton and quite often low-mid skill players would get absolutely lost if they lost their target, so the feature itself was really effective.

Edit: Oh! Also, there was one rogue that was literally all about detargeting. He had a top lvl buff that had a high chance to detarget and he had the light armor, the rogue detargeting and retargeting abilities. These motherfuckers were insanely annoying (they also had a pretty long dash buff, so mobility was through the roof too). They were also fat as fuck so usually you'd try to leave them for the last victim, but them being rogues meant that they could one or two shot your healer, so you had to deal with them in other ways more often than not. They had very mid dmg for a rogue and abilities could miss quite often, so that was the tradeoff.

Thank you. This is what I think I want to see and would solve any concerns for me.

If 'Tab Detarget' is common, then I would think that the way the game is built now relative to Targeting is good. I feel you could make a real argument that 'you need skill to use Tab Target' if you're usually fighting GvG and often your opponent is forcing your target lock to drop, especially if it makes non-Action skills miss.

If most 'great mobility' moves other than like... Tank's rush, also Detarget, I will definitely be satisfied and I would then have to ask others why they weren't.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Thank you. This is what I think I want to see and would solve any concerns for me.

If 'Tab Detarget' is common, then I would think that the way the game is built now relative to Targeting is good. I feel you could make a real argument that 'you need skill to use Tab Target' if you're usually fighting GvG and often your opponent is forcing your target lock to drop, especially if it makes non-Action skills miss.

If most 'great mobility' moves other than like... Tank's rush, also Detarget, I will definitely be satisfied and I would then have to ask others why they weren't.

Yep, I've been saying this since I started chatting on the forum and commenting in threads about tab vs action. Detargeting is a fucking must and would definitely raise the skill ceiling on that part of the game.

I still remember times when some cheeky rogues thought they'd fuck me over with their abilities (when I was playing an elemental mage), but I just stayed on top of my targeting and instead threw their target off with my aoe ability and they got fucking lost. Just stood there for around 2 seconds, which meant ~3-4 juicy atks from me. This is what happens to a mid skill player who thinks he's all that. And it was also an RPS balancer, because usually mages would lose if the rogue got into melee range.

The main issue I can see is that most of those detargeting methods came a bit later in L2's life, so there's a chance that Steven missed them and might not push for them in his design. I dearly hope that there's other devs that realize the importance of detargeting mechanics in a tab target pvp game. And if we don't see even a hint at that in Alpha2, I'm definitely gonna be yelling about it from the rooftops.

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