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Few questions about PvP

MyosotysMyosotys Member
edited October 4 in General Discussion
Hello to all,

I open this topic to gather all my questions about PvP. I've been through the forum but I haven't found any precise answer to these questions.
I'm a PvP player and I'm worried about seeing the eternal debate between PvP players and PvE players. I have bad memories of New World where PvP players were abandoned at launch. I am a big advocate of action PvP. I'm also in favor of loot items in case of death. But the game play has to be well constructed to offer some escape routes and avoid too much frustration.

When I say "it is necessary that" or "it is essential that", it means that it is my opinion and in no case I want to impose my vision.

1. PvP player free PK, advantage or disadvantage?

I understand that there are three types of PvP flags, the flag of "corrupted" seems to bring much more disadvantages than advantages. We lose our equipment and items? We are visible on a map?
But for the killer, is it possible to get loots from anyone?

2. What possibilities in case of PvP?

According to me, if there is a risk of loot of items in case of death, it is necessary absoulutely that a spell (or scroll) of recall is imagined in order to flee a combat. This would lead to an instantaneous return to the temple and would allow to save your equipment. This would also avoid unfair fights (1V2 or 1V3). If, despite everything, we decide to fight, we must keep the right reflexes and pray not to get one shot and lose our gear.

In case 4 players are running on you and you know that you will loose the fight, so you must be able to recall abd avoid death + loss of gear.

3. What is the use of Open world PvP?

If I want to clear a player from my zone by killing him or forcing him to use his "recall" spell. Will he be back after 10 seconds loaded with healing potions? Or will the paths be deliberately made complicated to avoid "loop killing"?

One of the great interests of PvP is to free an area (either for its resources or for its mobs). I hope that farming areas will not be too easily accessible to give a real advantage to PvP players.

4. How do health/mana potions work, how rare are they? How do they work?

I can't stand these games with rare potions anymore. For a fair PvP, it should be easy to get potions to fight in PvP fairly. So I suggest that the potions should be available from a NPC or at least easy to craft to be always full.

On the other hand, I wonder if the potions can be used without delay in order to raise his life bar quickly and to be able to last longer in the fights?

5. Is an entanglement spell planned?

A spell of entanglement would make it possible to nail an individual to the ground in order to prevent it from fleeing. If yes, is it possible to debate about how it will work ?

6. Anti-plug system ?
What will happen if they player ALT-F4 when he sees enemies ? In some games, the ALT+F4 was a possibility to quit the game, avoid a fight and stay in your area and potentially call a friend disconnected in that area to relog and fight someone 2V1. I am totally against this policy and I hope that there will be a 10 or 20 sec anti-plug system. Also if someone is plugging during a fight, I hope he will be sent automatically to the hall and he will have to loose time to come back.

I have so much hope in this game and I hope it will offer a good PvP system.

Comments

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    1. You can get loot from anyone, but there is no advantage to being Corrupted.
    2. There is no chance of losing equipment if you are NOT Corrupted, at this time, but there is no Scroll of Recall or other fast travel planned as far as we know.
    3. Intended to be as you wish it, but not verified fully.
    4. Unclear at the moment.
    5. Unclear at the moment.
    6. There is a timer on how soon your character can effectively log off after combat. They will remain in the world and in danger for some time.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    1, you get a portion of raw materials and certificates a player has on them when you kill them. Certificates drop from mobs and are turned in at nodes for coin. A non-combatant drops more of this than a combatant, but you gain corruption from killing a non-combatant.

    2, there are no plans for an escape like this.

    3, freeing an area is indeed one of the reasons for flag system based PvP. Since the game has a low amount of fast travel, it would take players a while to come back with potions if they didnt already have many on them.

    4, we have no details on this, other than knowing they will exist.

    5, yes.

    6, if you disconnect from the server (via any means) your character will stay in the game world for a while and still be killable.
  • Azherae wrote: »
    here is no chance of losing equipment if you are NOT Corrupted, at this time, but there is no Scroll of Recall or other fast travel planned as far as we know.
    .

    So, you are visible on a map and no have no chance to escape. So being corrupted is the guarantee of being naked forever :D

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Myosotys wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    here is no chance of losing equipment if you are NOT Corrupted, at this time, but there is no Scroll of Recall or other fast travel planned as far as we know.
    .

    So, you are visible on a map and no have no chance to escape. So being corrupted is the guarantee of being naked forever :D

    You are visible to Bounty Hunters, who have to do a whole quest, profession, etc, and MIGHT need to update on some sort of board to find you specifically (but probably not).

    Against those Bounty Hunters, you receive no direct negatives in battle.

    But yes, it is possible for a Bounty Hunter to group with non-Bounty Hunters to make your life hard.

    The point is to never be Corrupted for long enough for this to matter, or accept the potential losses, yes.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • MyosotysMyosotys Member
    edited October 4
    The point is to never be Corrupted for long enough for this to matter, or accept the potential losses, yes.[/quote]

    It make sense to push players to be respectful fighters. But in every game it is always a difficult challenge to satisfy PvP and PvE players at the same time.

    I will wait and see how they will balance and I hope PvP players will not be forgotten.

    Thank you for your answers.

    PS : I have just noticed that there will be some "Universal skills". I think the "entangle spell" should universal
    ylzqgb2af6oy.png
    Azherae wrote: »
    Myosotys wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    here is no chance of losing equipment if you are NOT Corrupted, at this time, but there is no Scroll of Recall or other fast travel planned as far as we know.
    .
  • DummoDummo Member
    They are certainly not forgetting PvP players.
    Dark Knight Dummo

    d681818dab4ff18eaec03b0dffa7a634.gif

  • mistake to delete
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    Man, you can always spot the murderhobos from a thousand yards. 😉
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Man, you can always spot the murderhobos from a thousand yards. 😉

    If that were true they wouldn't be as much of a problem >.>;
    Chicanery
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    Ok… but you can certainly spot some murder hobos from a thousand yards.

    🤗
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • Dummo wrote: »
    They are certainly not forgetting PvP players.

    The PvP community is not homogeneous.
    Some want Tab targeting, some don't. Some like risks and want loots, others prefer safety.

    In my opinion (and many will not share my opinion or even know what I am talking about), the best action PvP MMORPG of all time is T4C (The Fourth Coming, 1997).

    This game had:

    1. Instant potions (which bring back life without any time limit)
    2. A recall spell to instantly return to a safe place.
    3. A spell of entanglement accessible to all
    4. Real stakes to motivate PvP
    5. Loots that reward the killer

    My ideal game today would have its own identity but would be inspired by :
    - T4C (PvP Gameplay related to potion use, entanglement and recall spell. Irreversible gameplay choices, Reborns to limit the irreversibility of choices, Equipments/weapons accessible according to the statist points you have distributed).
    - Ragnarok Online (The "cards" system which could also be similar to gems, dropped at a very low rate by all the monsters and allowed you to customize your equipment endlessly.
    - TESO (immersion, high level of intuitiveness, simplicity of the quest system)
    - New World (quality of graphics, manual targeting)

    What I like about Ashes of Creation: The graphics are great. The developers are trying to find a good compromise to allow the PVE and hardcore PVP communities to coexist. Almost endless possibilities. A world that evolves according to the players. And certainly many wonderful ideas.

    The points on which I am skeptical about Ashes of Creation :
    - Equipments/weapons are level specific. This means that in all modern MMOs, we will end up with thousands of noob items cluttering up our inventory. This system is seen and seen again and it is inflationary. In my opinion a noob should have a small chance to find rare items that can be used by higher levels.

    - No irreversible choices (except the profession if I understand correctly?). In my opinion a character should be unique and unchangeable. To avoid mistakes and frustrations, the distribution of points could be reset to zero by doing a rebirth (character back to level 1 with rebirth bonuses). This would increase the life of the game while encouraging players to create several characters.
    In all MMOs, players get to know each other over time and I think it's a shame that a player is an archer one day, a warrior another day and a wizard the next. This will hurt the PvP.
    A partial reset can be imagined (10% of the total skill points distributed) by the shop to fix a mistake. Once a month maximum to avoid P2W).

    It is the irreversibility that makes the experience magical in an MMO

    - Ashes of Creation doesn't seem to be able to get out of this 50-60 fast leveling modeled on the last MMOs since WOW. According to me it is necessary to increase the lifespan of the game by making leveling possible until level 100 (even 200) even to make so that tens of hours of play are necessary to pass from level 160 to 161 (for example). This is a simple way to increase the life span of the game.

    I know that many will not share my opinion and this is just my vision.
  • DummoDummo Member
    Myosotys wrote: »
    Dummo wrote: »
    They are certainly not forgetting PvP players.

    The PvP community is not homogeneous.
    Some want Tab targeting, some don't. Some like risks and want loots, others prefer safety.

    They can't please everyone.
    Dark Knight Dummo

    d681818dab4ff18eaec03b0dffa7a634.gif
  • Dummo wrote: »
    Myosotys wrote: »
    Dummo wrote: »
    They are certainly not forgetting PvP players.

    The PvP community is not homogeneous.
    Some want Tab targeting, some don't. Some like risks and want loots, others prefer safety.

    They can't please everyone.

    This is why it is important to survey the community and avoid massive losses of players due to poor choices as seen recently in some MMOs.
  • Myosotys wrote: »
    Hello to all,

    I open this topic to gather all my questions about PvP. I've been through the forum but I haven't found any precise answer to these questions.
    I'm a PvP player and I'm worried about seeing the eternal debate between PvP players and PvE players. I have bad memories of New World where PvP players were abandoned at launch. I am a big advocate of action PvP. I'm also in favor of loot items in case of death. But the game play has to be well constructed to offer some escape routes and avoid too much frustration.

    When I say "it is necessary that" or "it is essential that", it means that it is my opinion and in no case I want to impose my vision.

    1. PvP player free PK, advantage or disadvantage?

    I understand that there are three types of PvP flags, the flag of "corrupted" seems to bring much more disadvantages than advantages. We lose our equipment and items? We are visible on a map?
    But for the killer, is it possible to get loots from anyone?

    2. What possibilities in case of PvP?

    According to me, if there is a risk of loot of items in case of death, it is necessary absoulutely that a spell (or scroll) of recall is imagined in order to flee a combat. This would lead to an instantaneous return to the temple and would allow to save your equipment. This would also avoid unfair fights (1V2 or 1V3). If, despite everything, we decide to fight, we must keep the right reflexes and pray not to get one shot and lose our gear.

    In case 4 players are running on you and you know that you will loose the fight, so you must be able to recall abd avoid death + loss of gear.

    3. What is the use of Open world PvP?

    If I want to clear a player from my zone by killing him or forcing him to use his "recall" spell. Will he be back after 10 seconds loaded with healing potions? Or will the paths be deliberately made complicated to avoid "loop killing"?

    One of the great interests of PvP is to free an area (either for its resources or for its mobs). I hope that farming areas will not be too easily accessible to give a real advantage to PvP players.

    4. How do health/mana potions work, how rare are they? How do they work?

    I can't stand these games with rare potions anymore. For a fair PvP, it should be easy to get potions to fight in PvP fairly. So I suggest that the potions should be available from a NPC or at least easy to craft to be always full.

    On the other hand, I wonder if the potions can be used without delay in order to raise his life bar quickly and to be able to last longer in the fights?

    5. Is an entanglement spell planned?

    A spell of entanglement would make it possible to nail an individual to the ground in order to prevent it from fleeing. If yes, is it possible to debate about how it will work ?

    6. Anti-plug system ?
    What will happen if they player ALT-F4 when he sees enemies ? In some games, the ALT+F4 was a possibility to quit the game, avoid a fight and stay in your area and potentially call a friend disconnected in that area to relog and fight someone 2V1. I am totally against this policy and I hope that there will be a 10 or 20 sec anti-plug system. Also if someone is plugging during a fight, I hope he will be sent automatically to the hall and he will have to loose time to come back.

    I have so much hope in this game and I hope it will offer a good PvP system.

    1- only the bounty hunters can see u in the map and not everybody will be one. i believe theres a cooldown on the skill they can use to see u. also, if they kill u, corrupted penalties dont apply, only purple penalties. red penalties only a pply if a non bounty hunter kills u. and yes, being red. the advantages are that u have an area just for urself

    2- NOOOOO. no blessed scroll of escape, this completely removes the risk asociated with going red. hated that aspect of l2

    3- its gonna take them like 10 mins to come back. just kill them again :disappointed:

    4- no potion spamming pls, or pots at all tbh. that removes the need from healers, also makes pvp boring because it turns into running around a rock for 5 mins abusing line of sight until my potion is off cd and i can go back to full health. potion spamming is even worse, it turns the fight into a contest of whoever is carrying the most pots wins.

    5- classes have cc, use them correctly. stop trying to turn this into another game T_T

    6- hopefully their char stays logged in for 5 mins lol.
  • Depraved wrote: »
    2- NOOOOO. no blessed scroll of escape, this completely removes the risk asociated with going red. hated that aspect of l2

    3- its gonna take them like 10 mins to come back. just kill them again :disappointed:

    4- no potion spamming pls, or pots at all tbh. that removes the need from healers, also makes pvp boring because it turns into running around a rock for 5 mins abusing line of sight until my potion is off cd and i can go back to full health. potion spamming is even worse, it turns the fight into a contest of whoever is carrying the most pots wins.

    According to me, we need a way to instant espace a fight. Players not wanting to PvP or face 1v3 combat will be trapped, frustrated and it will make the atmosphere toxic. PvP players will not run away from fights and will fight until the last potion, at the risk of taking a critical hit and dying.

    Spamming potions is a great option for action PvP. It just requires players to have an entanglement spell.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Myosotys wrote: »
    So, you are visible on a map and no have no chance to escape. So being corrupted is the guarantee of being naked forever :D

    just keep in mind that Ashes is an MMORPG - gear matters, you won't kill anyone with shit tier gear or being naked no matter how god tier you are and how bad they play - and the PvE players and farmers will be Very well equipped and most times with a group so.. keep that in mind

    oficial-baner2.png
    Recrutamento aberto - Nosso Site: Clique aqui
  • Myosotys wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    2- NOOOOO. no blessed scroll of escape, this completely removes the risk asociated with going red. hated that aspect of l2

    3- its gonna take them like 10 mins to come back. just kill them again :disappointed:

    4- no potion spamming pls, or pots at all tbh. that removes the need from healers, also makes pvp boring because it turns into running around a rock for 5 mins abusing line of sight until my potion is off cd and i can go back to full health. potion spamming is even worse, it turns the fight into a contest of whoever is carrying the most pots wins.

    According to me, we need a way to instant espace a fight. Players not wanting to PvP or face 1v3 combat will be trapped, frustrated and it will make the atmosphere toxic. PvP players will not run away from fights and will fight until the last potion, at the risk of taking a critical hit and dying.

    Spamming potions is a great option for action PvP. It just requires players to have an entanglement spell.

    not all pvpers will fight until the last potion lmao. instant escape makes you take 0 risk. dropping mats when you are white or purple wont matter then because you can always use a bsoe lol

    potion spam can work in a game but not in another. you posted u played ro...do u remember how impossible it is to kill any1 if they pot spam? however that game needs it cuz its common to have 200+ people in one room fighting each other and u cant run and escape very well, only with speed pots and entering a portal. aoc has tons of open areas, pot spam will make pvp unfun.
  • Depraved wrote: »
    not all pvpers will fight until the last potion lmao. instant escape makes you take 0 risk. dropping mats when you are white or purple wont matter then because you can always use a bsoe lol

    potion spam can work in a game but not in another. you posted u played ro...do u remember how impossible it is to kill any1 if they pot spam? however that game needs it cuz its common to have 200+ people in one room fighting each other and u cant run and escape very well, only with speed pots and entering a portal. aoc has tons of open areas, pot spam will make pvp unfun.

    The risk can depend on the damage policy. in 2V2 for exememple, if you are the focus, you can die in 2 critical hits.

    You will have less chance do die in 1V1 but I think that a recall scroll will offer a guarantee to players for they PvP more.

    Regarding the pots, if you win a duel, you will be out of pots and you have to back in town to by pots. Also in mass pvp, spamming pots is a way to make fights longer but it doesnt save you for critical hits.

  • StreviStrevi Member
    Dummo wrote: »
    Myosotys wrote: »
    Dummo wrote: »
    They are certainly not forgetting PvP players.

    The PvP community is not homogeneous.
    Some want Tab targeting, some don't. Some like risks and want loots, others prefer safety.

    They can't please everyone.

    Important is Steven to be pleased. Apparently he enjoys putting PvP-ers and PvE-ers together and see what happens :innocent:
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • MyosotysMyosotys Member
    edited October 6
    Strevi wrote: »
    Important is Steven to be pleased. Apparently he enjoys putting PvP-ers and PvE-ers together and see what happens :innocent:

    The idea of putting both PVE and PVE players together is exellent but very touch. Automatically, PVE players will be attacked and will have the feeling to be "forced" to PvP. At the same time PvP players will not play the game if there are not enough PvP and rewards for Pvp.

    All the challenge is to balance the reward/risks/stakes of Being a corrupted to limit their number without touching to their utility and fun.

    Naturally we could imagine something like 20% none combattants, 60% combattants, 20% corrupted.

    If the number of none combattants/corrupted will exceed 20% maybe someting will be wrong with balance.

    Do not pay attention with these stats, it's just an example to show how important is the balance to please PvP/PvE players at the same time.

  • StreviStrevi Member
    Myosotys wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    Important is Steven to be pleased. Apparently he enjoys putting PvP-ers and PvE-ers together and see what happens :innocent:

    The idea of putting both PVE and PVE players together is exellent but very touch. Automatically, PVE players will be attacked and will have the feeling to be "forced" to PvP. At the same time PvP players will not play the game if there are not enough PvP and rewards for Pvp.

    All the challenge is to balance the reward/risks/stakes of Being a corrupted to limit their number without touching to their utility and fun.

    Naturally we could imagine something like 20% none combattants, 60% combattants, 20% corrupted.

    If the number of none combattants/corrupted will exceed 20% maybe someting will be wrong with balance.

    Do not pay attention with these stats, it's just an example to show how important is the balance to please PvP/PvE players at the same time.
    I think the percentage is not important but player's mindset and ability to organize themselves.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • Myosotys wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    not all pvpers will fight until the last potion lmao. instant escape makes you take 0 risk. dropping mats when you are white or purple wont matter then because you can always use a bsoe lol

    potion spam can work in a game but not in another. you posted u played ro...do u remember how impossible it is to kill any1 if they pot spam? however that game needs it cuz its common to have 200+ people in one room fighting each other and u cant run and escape very well, only with speed pots and entering a portal. aoc has tons of open areas, pot spam will make pvp unfun.

    The risk can depend on the damage policy. in 2V2 for exememple, if you are the focus, you can die in 2 critical hits.

    You will have less chance do die in 1V1 but I think that a recall scroll will offer a guarantee to players for they PvP more.

    Regarding the pots, if you win a duel, you will be out of pots and you have to back in town to by pots. Also in mass pvp, spamming pots is a way to make fights longer but it doesnt save you for critical hits.

    so basically potions are useless in anything other than 1v1 and you can only do one 1v1 fight because you have to go back to town restock, so even if u win and defend ur farming spot, u still have to go back to town because u wont be able to fight the next dude.

    seems great
  • Depraved wrote: »
    Myosotys wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    not all pvpers will fight until the last potion lmao. instant escape makes you take 0 risk. dropping mats when you are white or purple wont matter then because you can always use a bsoe lol

    potion spam can work in a game but not in another. you posted u played ro...do u remember how impossible it is to kill any1 if they pot spam? however that game needs it cuz its common to have 200+ people in one room fighting each other and u cant run and escape very well, only with speed pots and entering a portal. aoc has tons of open areas, pot spam will make pvp unfun.

    The risk can depend on the damage policy. in 2V2 for exememple, if you are the focus, you can die in 2 critical hits.

    You will have less chance do die in 1V1 but I think that a recall scroll will offer a guarantee to players for they PvP more.

    Regarding the pots, if you win a duel, you will be out of pots and you have to back in town to by pots. Also in mass pvp, spamming pots is a way to make fights longer but it doesnt save you for critical hits.

    so basically potions are useless in anything other than 1v1 and you can only do one 1v1 fight because you have to go back to town restock, so even if u win and defend ur farming spot, u still have to go back to town because u wont be able to fight the next dude.

    seems great

    Wrong ! Did you play old school MMO? If the new MMO are beautiful, the PvP game play is crape because (between others) of these delayed pots.

    Have a look on T4C or RO ONLINE. That
    Was pvp !
  • VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
    Looks like there have been plenty of helpful answers to your questions! I love to see it ^_^

    I'll throw this out there for ya too: Make sure to check out the wiki and read through its many pages of helpful information! https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP
    community_management.gif
  • Myosotys wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Myosotys wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    not all pvpers will fight until the last potion lmao. instant escape makes you take 0 risk. dropping mats when you are white or purple wont matter then because you can always use a bsoe lol

    potion spam can work in a game but not in another. you posted u played ro...do u remember how impossible it is to kill any1 if they pot spam? however that game needs it cuz its common to have 200+ people in one room fighting each other and u cant run and escape very well, only with speed pots and entering a portal. aoc has tons of open areas, pot spam will make pvp unfun.

    The risk can depend on the damage policy. in 2V2 for exememple, if you are the focus, you can die in 2 critical hits.

    You will have less chance do die in 1V1 but I think that a recall scroll will offer a guarantee to players for they PvP more.

    Regarding the pots, if you win a duel, you will be out of pots and you have to back in town to by pots. Also in mass pvp, spamming pots is a way to make fights longer but it doesnt save you for critical hits.

    so basically potions are useless in anything other than 1v1 and you can only do one 1v1 fight because you have to go back to town restock, so even if u win and defend ur farming spot, u still have to go back to town because u wont be able to fight the next dude.

    seems great

    Wrong ! Did you play old school MMO? If the new MMO are beautiful, the PvP game play is crape because (between others) of these delayed pots.

    Have a look on T4C or RO ONLINE. That
    Was pvp !

    yes i have, and im sure ive played RO longer than u.
  • You look so childish 🤣 No, I played more than you !
    Regarding the pots I do not understand what your are talking about. As a RO ONLINE expert, you used pots only in 1V1?

    My first example to compare was T4C (Before RO).

    In T4C more than in RO you were often dying in 1V1 with many potions left.1 violent critical hits and no time to drink pots.

    It depends also about how much health basic pots will give back.

    Anyway, i am here to discuss between adults and I respect all disagreements. If you disagree with my ideas, you can expose yours. Im very interested to read it.
  • i already explained why pot spamming is bad T_T

    and also explained why it kind of worked in RO. that game is different. for mass pvp the pots were necessary, but they broke 1v1.

    also pot spamming breaks pve. they literally removed all the self heals from most classes so you cant play single player mmorpg and you have to socialize and group up with people. potion spamming completely invalidates that. it snot just about pvp
  • MyosotysMyosotys Member
    edited October 7
    Thank you for explaining for the third time that you do not like the instant pots… But with so many posts, you haven’t describe your vision about the pots. So how it should work according to you ?
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member
    Myosotys wrote: »
    Thank you for explaining for the third time that you do not like the instant pots… But with so many posts, you haven’t describe your vision about the pots. So how it should work according to you ?

    Instant potion, but they have a cooldown of 1 minute or so before you can use another. Easy. Done.
    Sig-ult-2.png
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