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Iframes and use

Curious on peoples thoughts on this with iframe and dodge rolls (that provide iframes) on how often and how many classes should have access to. And generally what peoples opinions are.
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Comments

  • LashingLashing Member
    edited October 7
    If they use I-frames I hope they only work for projectiles and never AoE. AoE should be dodged by actual movement. In an ideal world they should not exist at all unless it is part of the skill's main effect. My guess is if they overused this it would just make damage over time the meta.
  • TryolTryol Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited October 7
    I personally hope they either don't exist for dodges, or just in a very limited form.
    I wouldn't want AoEs, frontal cones or any action skills to be able to be I-framed with a dodge.

    Maybe they could be used to avoid tab targets skills that are in the middle of homing to you, if you dodge in time, but at that point it would be more of an "avoid frame™" than I-frame.

    As for skills like shields I don't mind them, but I hope we don't have many of them.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited October 7
    I really don't like it, allows you to fail at a boss mechanic and avoid the 20k dmg hit that should be a one shot by just rolling... I feel like a reduction in damage or CC mitigation would be good on your roll tho, but It should have a stamina bar or something that don't allow you to roll all the time - maybe 3 rolls and you need to wait 10s to get the stamina back or 3 rolls and you enter a cooldown
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  • Liniker wrote: »
    I really don't like it, allows you to fail at a boss mechanic and avoid the 20k dmg hit that should be a one shot by just rolling... I feel like a reduction in damage or CC mitigation would be good on your roll tho, but It should have a stamina bar or something that don't allow you to roll all the time - maybe 3 rolls and you need to wait 10s to get the stamina back or 3 rolls and you enter a cooldown

    Normally iframes don't stop mechanics that are meant to wipe you. I also don't like rolls to be honest being iframes. They are better as a form of movement, maybe a slight buff you gain from it.

    If there are rolls in the game I feel they should be linked to movement and not look like a roll, like archer maybe as a quick side leap movement or back leap movement instead of a roll.

    Though i agree some iframes should be in the game, they should be limited imo and tied to some skills. But also need to be careful of the amount that is tied so people can't just start chaining iframes together, makes things feel kind of meh when you are fighting the wind.

    Honestly I'd say classes should have 2 iframes maxed each, maybe 3 if it works under certain conditions. all with Cooldowns of course. And though there is 3, based on your skill tree and how you level it you can adjust and tweak it. Allowing people to utilize their own preference in style and choices of iframes.
  • hleVhleV Member
    edited October 7
    Why are iframes a thing in the first place? To fight off lag? Because if you successfully dodge, it means you took no damage from that attack anyway. And if it's wide AoE and you can't dodge it, then block. Why reward badly timed or nonsensical dodges?
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    edited October 7
    @hleV
    It is a skill based motion relating to action combat and push the flow of it. Same way akin to blocks except it is more relating to movement than just blocking.

    Has nothing to do with lag. You are rewarding good dodges.... I'm unsure where you are getting badly timed dodges when the frame you have for a dodge is up to or less than a second...
  • HalaeHalae Member
    In a perfect world, I'd prefer the Monster Hunter way of handling it. In the Monster Hunter games, the primary utility of dodge rolls aren't invincibility frames - they're a mobility tool to get you the hell out of the way of the giant monster attempting to eat your face. There's extremely rare equipment that can enhance these dodge rolls, either to add distance to the rolls, or to add iFrames to it, but innately it's just a short range mobility tool to avoid AoE attacks when every attack in the game is some variety of AoE.

    I'm not sure how feasible that is in a game that's primarily tab-target like Ashes seems to be shaping up to be, even with the hybrid elements. Final Fantasy 14 experimented with a similar concept during the Stormblood expansion and it was universally considered as an interesting experiment that nobody particularly enjoyed playing through, and while the games have differences, I think a similar experience would bear out here.

    On the other hand, Guild Wars 2 showed that an iFrame dodge can be done well if it's built for and given due consideration, but can also be prepared for badly. I dunno, there's a lot of ways this could go.
  • hleVhleV Member
    edited October 7
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    @hleV
    It is a skill based motion relating to action combat and push the flow of it. Same way akin to blocks except it is more relating to movement than just blocking.

    Has nothing to do with lag. You are rewarding good dodges.... I'm unsure where you are getting badly timed dodges when the frame you have for a dodge is up to or less than a second...
    Either you completely missed what I'm trying to say, or I'm missing what you're trying to say.

    Dodging out of the way is one thing, adding invincibility during your dodge is another. If you dodge properly, you wouldn't need to have invincibility on top of it, because the attack you dodged didn't reach your hitbox anyway. And if it does reach your hitbox, it means you didn't dodge it. It shouldn't just be about a timed button click, it should be about timed button click with spacing and positioning accounted in.
  • I just don't want New world or BDO dodge spam iframes every 2 seconds. It makes combat feel meh.
    hleV wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    @hleV
    It is a skill based motion relating to action combat and push the flow of it. Same way akin to blocks except it is more relating to movement than just blocking.

    Has nothing to do with lag. You are rewarding good dodges.... I'm unsure where you are getting badly timed dodges when the frame you have for a dodge is up to or less than a second...
    Either you completely missed what I'm trying to say, or I'm missing what you're trying to say.

    Dodging out of the way is one thing, adding invincibility during your dodge is another. If you dodge properly, you wouldn't need to have invincibility during that time, because the attack you dodged didn't reach your hitbox anyway.

    I'd agree if it was a fighting game, but mmorpgs are different even more so TAB or in this case hybrid. Moving out of the way won't change when the arrow, spell, skill, weapon tracks you with tab target.

    Also depends on how much movement they plan to have in the game, there might not be enough movement to dodge out of such skills. So it ban be balanced by injecting some iframes.

    Though design wise i know they want movement but its hard to tell things until it all shapes up and you have a real feel for combat in pvp.
  • hleVhleV Member
    It should stop tracking if the target dodges at the right moment. Not hit the target for 0 damage.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    In general, whatever Intrepid decides is fine with me because their combat system will probably be built around it.

    If they want to keep the 'freedom' and 'mobility' they mention, then I figure they'll add them and build the combat system around that. Since it's so relatively fast anyway, I doubt it will make any difference if we have them or not.

    Since fighting is often about dodging and positioning anyway, the iFrames are just going to be an additional layer, which is basically what was said originally:

    Q: Will there be evade frames/ I-frames on dodge?
    A: I would say it's a safe bet with regards to how we're approaching the hybrid combat that not only are gonna have true evasion skills that apply to more action-oriented skills that are coming your way, but you'll also have you know I-frame type skills that would apply perhaps to a tab targetable skills coming your way. So I think you're gonna have a healthy balance of both with it when it comes to skills that you can spec into.

    So I figure there will be some Archetypes with lots of iFrames to go with their concept, especially to help avoid the last hit in a chain of basic attacks.
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  • DummoDummo Member
    hleV wrote: »
    It should stop tracking if the target dodges at the right moment. Not hit the target for 0 damage.

    Wouldn't that be weird though? An arrow homing at you but then suddenly going in a straight line past you.
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  • VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
    In case some of those here haven't seen this, you can see what Steven has said regarding iframes in the past here, on the wiki! https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Evasion
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  • NiKrNiKr Member
    I wanna see pure chaos so I'd like them to be at random timings of the attack animation. I-frames are just like a box of chocolates - you never know when you gonna dodge.
  • If it visually looks like I hit someone with an ability, I would like the ability to hit. Otherwise, if I dodge out of a persistant aoe, that maybe I dont take a tick of the damage. Whatever looks good
  • hleVhleV Member
    edited October 7
    Dummo wrote: »
    hleV wrote: »
    It should stop tracking if the target dodges at the right moment. Not hit the target for 0 damage.

    Wouldn't that be weird though? An arrow homing at you but then suddenly going in a straight line past you.
    It would be weird if you dodged let's say 2 meters to the side and the arrow turned 90 degrees and hit you (for 0 damage due to iframes). If it's a close dodge, the arrow has no business still being locked on to you.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    hleV wrote: »
    It would be weird if you dodged let's say 2 meters to the side and the arrow turned 90 degrees and hit you (for 0 damage due to iframes). If it's a close dodge, the arrow has no business still being locked on to you.

    I’d find it weird if you think you could dodge an arrow from 6 feet right after it was loosed.

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  • DummoDummo Member
    hleV wrote: »
    Dummo wrote: »
    hleV wrote: »
    It should stop tracking if the target dodges at the right moment. Not hit the target for 0 damage.

    Wouldn't that be weird though? An arrow homing at you but then suddenly going in a straight line past you.
    It would be weird if you dodged let's say 2 meters to the side and the arrow turned 90 degrees and hit you (for 0 damage due to iframes). If it's a close dodge, the arrow has no business still being locked on to you.

    Ofcourse, I agree with that. But I mean if it was the case the arrow was already bending towards you while you were walking to the side, for example. It would be weird if it then suddenly went straight past you.
    Dark Knight Dummo

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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    hleV wrote: »
    Dummo wrote: »
    hleV wrote: »
    It should stop tracking if the target dodges at the right moment. Not hit the target for 0 damage.

    Wouldn't that be weird though? An arrow homing at you but then suddenly going in a straight line past you.
    It would be weird if you dodged let's say 2 meters to the side and the arrow turned 90 degrees and hit you (for 0 damage due to iframes). If it's a close dodge, the arrow has no business still being locked on to you.

    That would only be weird if you look at an MMO as a combat simulator.

    If you look at it as a game that needs to put balance and gameplay above simulating combat, it isnt necessarily all that weird.
  • Things don't need to be 100% realistic in a game, it needs to be fun and balanced based on design.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I think toons should be able to catch arrows like Xena.
  • DizzDizz Member
    edited October 9
    Vaknar wrote: »
    In case some of those here haven't seen this, you can see what Steven has said regarding iframes in the past here, on the wiki! https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Evasion

    According to wiki, I feel the iframe/evasion design in Steven's mind is very good already, but Ashes of Creation have real healer classes which might make combat extreme longer than expecting and add iframe/evasion on top of it will need to be very carefully with it, it might make some contents less fun than expecting.

    In my mind, iframe/evasion is more for dps classes or say low survive ability classes and light/medium armor type, which means a tank equip full heavy armor should less rely on iframe/evasion(not saying tank or heavy armor shouldn't have the iframe/evasion benefit at all) than a thief equip full medium armor and iframe/evasion should be capped not only by frames or time but also like how many hits or how much damage or the skill type or the damage type should the dodge/roll or evasion skills able to evade to further tune the iframe/evasion in detail.
    A casual follower from TW.

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  • Dizz wrote: »
    Vaknar wrote: »
    In case some of those here haven't seen this, you can see what Steven has said regarding iframes in the past here, on the wiki! https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Evasion

    According to wiki, I feel the iframe/evasion design in Steven's mind is very good already, but Ashes of Creation have real healer classes which might make combat extreme longer than expecting and add iframe/evasion on top of it will need to be very carefully with it, it might make some contents less fun than expecting.

    In my mind, iframe/evasion is more for dps classes or say low survive ability classes and light/medium armor type, which means a tank equip full heavy armor should less rely on iframe/evasion(not saying tank or heavy armor shouldn't have the iframe/evasion benefit at all) than a thief equip full medium armor and iframe/evasion should be capped not only by frames or time but also like how many hits or how much damage or the skill type or the damage type should the dodge/roll or evasion skills able to evade to further tune the iframe/evasion in detail.

    I agree with the class element and being careful with it that is why i mentioned in my post about it being limited to a certain number. The issue with some mmorpgs more focused on action combat allows people to chain these iframes together and it feels meh when they can chain it or use it every few seconds.

    Like i 100% want some iframes but i want combat to be more skillful than spammy. Survivability should be more around skill, blocks, dodges(movement spacing), Dodges (a few iframes with proper CDs).

    It does add a much higher skill gab when people can spam iframe dodges, but I don't feel it increasing skill ceiling in a good way from that. Creates a kind of frustrating feeling.
  • DizzDizz Member
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Dizz wrote: »
    Vaknar wrote: »
    In case some of those here haven't seen this, you can see what Steven has said regarding iframes in the past here, on the wiki! https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Evasion

    According to wiki, I feel the iframe/evasion design in Steven's mind is very good already, but Ashes of Creation have real healer classes which might make combat extreme longer than expecting and add iframe/evasion on top of it will need to be very carefully with it, it might make some contents less fun than expecting.

    In my mind, iframe/evasion is more for dps classes or say low survive ability classes and light/medium armor type, which means a tank equip full heavy armor should less rely on iframe/evasion(not saying tank or heavy armor shouldn't have the iframe/evasion benefit at all) than a thief equip full medium armor and iframe/evasion should be capped not only by frames or time but also like how many hits or how much damage or the skill type or the damage type should the dodge/roll or evasion skills able to evade to further tune the iframe/evasion in detail.

    I agree with the class element and being careful with it that is why i mentioned in my post about it being limited to a certain number. The issue with some mmorpgs more focused on action combat allows people to chain these iframes together and it feels meh when they can chain it or use it every few seconds.

    Like i 100% want some iframes but i want combat to be more skillful than spammy. Survivability should be more around skill, blocks, dodges(movement spacing), Dodges (a few iframes with proper CDs).

    It does add a much higher skill gab when people can spam iframe dodges, but I don't feel it increasing skill ceiling in a good way from that. Creates a kind of frustrating feeling.

    That is depends on resource management that something need to test over and over, so I hope they will put it in A2 or Beta for people to test how much is good how much feel bad.
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  • Dizz wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Dizz wrote: »
    Vaknar wrote: »
    In case some of those here haven't seen this, you can see what Steven has said regarding iframes in the past here, on the wiki! https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Evasion

    According to wiki, I feel the iframe/evasion design in Steven's mind is very good already, but Ashes of Creation have real healer classes which might make combat extreme longer than expecting and add iframe/evasion on top of it will need to be very carefully with it, it might make some contents less fun than expecting.

    In my mind, iframe/evasion is more for dps classes or say low survive ability classes and light/medium armor type, which means a tank equip full heavy armor should less rely on iframe/evasion(not saying tank or heavy armor shouldn't have the iframe/evasion benefit at all) than a thief equip full medium armor and iframe/evasion should be capped not only by frames or time but also like how many hits or how much damage or the skill type or the damage type should the dodge/roll or evasion skills able to evade to further tune the iframe/evasion in detail.

    I agree with the class element and being careful with it that is why i mentioned in my post about it being limited to a certain number. The issue with some mmorpgs more focused on action combat allows people to chain these iframes together and it feels meh when they can chain it or use it every few seconds.

    Like i 100% want some iframes but i want combat to be more skillful than spammy. Survivability should be more around skill, blocks, dodges(movement spacing), Dodges (a few iframes with proper CDs).

    It does add a much higher skill gab when people can spam iframe dodges, but I don't feel it increasing skill ceiling in a good way from that. Creates a kind of frustrating feeling.

    That is depends on resource management that something need to test over and over, so I hope they will put it in A2 or Beta for people to test how much is good how much feel bad.

    Ya A2 is where things are really going to get going with good proper feedback. Sometimes its harder to voice when you don't know what can happen or you are just voicing based on guesses.

    Forum is going to really blow up in A2 cause everyone will have an opinions on everything under a microscopic lens and their view points.
  • Not going to comment on balance, but I really hope they don't make the dodge animation a roll.

    Rolling during combat almost always looks silly, no matter how polished you make the animation. A side step\duck or even a slide would look way more convincing.
  • Solmyr wrote: »
    Not going to comment on balance, but I really hope they don't make the dodge animation a roll.

    Rolling during combat almost always looks silly, no matter how polished you make the animation. A side step\duck or even a slide would look way more convincing.

    9001% agree with this, so many more cool and fun ways they can do this.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Sliding from stand still would look shit.
  • Neurath wrote: »
    Sliding from stand still would look shit.

    It would not, but you are free to explain why it would and why they would not have animations inbetween. If you are worried about momentum you can say the same thing about rolling from standing...
  • DizzDizz Member
    edited October 12
    I don't think it's which is better or more convincing, I prefer each archetype has its own dodge animation to represent its own identity, and minor tuned details base on armor type and weapon type.

    For example I'd like to see thief's dodge animation looks like bloodhound's step in Elden Ring, mage's dodge animation looks like a fast short distance teleport, and if thief or mage wear heavy armors or use heavy weapons will make their dodge less mobile or less distance or less iframe to dodge incoming damage etc.
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