Confused on incentive for open world PvP

I understand the incentive to kill corrupted players. I don't understand the incentive to kill other characters. Yes if there is a caravan of materials or preventing a player from using your mining spot that is a pretty decent incentive, but what about all the other times? I remember being told Ashes isn't supposed to be a gank fest (which I am glad for), but with gear drops only occuring for corrupted players what other reasons do I have to ever engage in open world PvP?

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Azherae

SorcererKingGown wrote: »

I understand the incentive to kill corrupted players. I don't understand the incentive to kill other characters. Yes if there is a caravan of materials or preventing a player from using your mining spot that is a pretty decent incentive, but what about all the other times? I remember being told Ashes isn't supposed to be a gank fest (which I am glad for), but with gear drops only occuring for corrupted players what other reasons do I have to ever engage in open world PvP?

To defend the lands and resources of Nazarick.

CROW3

Gamers need incentive to kill each other?? 🤔

Okeydoke

You're taking a risk by attacking and killing other players, not signing up for an automatic L. If it was an automatic L, no one would do it.

You're making a bet with yourself that if you kill this player for his resources, or whatever reason you have for killing him, that you will be able to get away and not be killed by enemy players while you're still red or purple.

Even if you are killed while corrupted, you'll suffer elevated penalties, but it's not 100% that you will drop gear. We don't know the percentages. But whatever they end up being, each player will determine what his or her risk tolerance is based on that, and the other standard penalties of death.

George_Black

What dont you understand?

If you want to lv up or gather drops and materials and all the players around you are taking all the mobs everywhere you go, you are going to start picking fights.

An open world pvp mmo simulates real life. Conflict of interest. The purest reason to fight. And you are free to fight EVERYBODY. Or be friends with everybody.
There arent lame faction restrictions, or pre-determined gameplay.

Sathrago

SorcererKingGown wrote: »

I understand the incentive to kill corrupted players. I don't understand the incentive to kill other characters. Yes if there is a caravan of materials or preventing a player from using your mining spot that is a pretty decent incentive, but what about all the other times? I remember being told Ashes isn't supposed to be a gank fest (which I am glad for), but with gear drops only occuring for corrupted players what other reasons do I have to ever engage in open world PvP?

There aren't any real incentives past zone control for open world pvp. That's the point. However the game lets you come up with any reason you want in order to "justify" attacking another player.
Also, caravans are not open world pvp, thats more structured and no one becomes corrupted during those fights.
Now, if you are the type that doesn't want to be constantly attacked, well that's up to the people running around to decide. You get to decide if you will defend yourself, roll over and take it, or flee.

BlackBrony

SorcererKingGown wrote: »

I don't understand the incentive to kill other characters.

And this is the problem of today's gaming.
Games are supposed to be fun, not a dopamine release mechanism. You do things because you think it's fun. You don't explore to get a reward, you explore because you want to see the world.
Incentives? Guild KoS, you don't like that player, that player is from another node/guild. He's always too close to you.
There are many reason to kill somebody, and most of them won't get you something in return. This is because PvP games are like this.
In Perfect World we would kill each other because Guilds were on Kos, or particular people. Or farming spots. Resources ARE important, that alone will cause many many wars.

Caww

It adds an element of unpredictability to your usual roaming and, in a sense, makes every player a unique "NPC" element verses static mobs.

Ehrgeiz

Azherae wrote: »

SorcererKingGown wrote: »

I understand the incentive to kill corrupted players. I don't understand the incentive to kill other characters. Yes if there is a caravan of materials or preventing a player from using your mining spot that is a pretty decent incentive, but what about all the other times? I remember being told Ashes isn't supposed to be a gank fest (which I am glad for), but with gear drops only occuring for corrupted players what other reasons do I have to ever engage in open world PvP?

To defend the lands and resources of Nazarick.

this!

Percimes

Compared to objective based PvP, I've always found the incentives to attack and kill other players in the wild to be on the petty side of motivation. That's why are rarely initiate the assault, which, in turn, means I'm usually on the receiving end and so at a disadvantage from the start.

Some people enjoy the thrill of the hunt, that, if they're not careful, they will become the prey rather than the hunter. The open world gives them opportunities to exert, and feel, that they have some control on the hunting ground, that their decisions and their actions make a difference in what's going on around them. And I'm not talking of only killing other players: it's also about forming alliances, extracting resources or drop in a area, etc. It's about feeling that they are part of, responsible of, or had their hands in, shaping what's going on.

One of the reasons, at least what I feel is one, that so many people don't like open world PvP is because they enter the hunting grounds with an objective and someone else then decide that they won't be doing that. Thought you would kill these mobs and finishing your quest? Nope, you're fighting me today. Thought you could walk to that dungeon to farm with your friends? Nope, first you must get past me. Thought you would gather these minerals here. Nope, they're all mine, I've decided. If you've log in with an objective in mind, having someone else dictate what your playtime will be can be rather annoying. Each side have a different reason to be there.

And that's what's great, for me, about battlegrounds: everyone is aware of what the objectives are and which side they're on. If I die and it helps my team/side win, it was not in vain: it served a purpose. In the open world, if I die, I lose. If I win, the other player's aggro isn't reset: it just goes up and I'll have to fight them again.

BlackBrony

Percimes wrote: »

And that's what's great, for me, about battlegrounds: everyone is aware of what the objectives are and which side they're on. If I die and it helps my team/side win, it was not in vain: it served a purpose. In the open world, if I die, I lose. If I win, the other player's aggro isn't reset: it just goes up and I'll have to fight them again.

But that destroy the social interaction. Why bother talking to someone else if they know what's going to happen. There's no mistery. If you want something like that you need to play an instanced game.
Open World PvP is great because of that. Because you don't know what's going to happen.

SorcererKingGown

Percimes wrote: »

If you've log in with an objective in mind, having someone else dictate what your playtime will be can be rather annoying. Each side have a different reason to be there.

And that's what's great, for me, about battlegrounds: everyone is aware of what the objectives are and which side they're on. If I die and it helps my team/side win, it was not in vain: it served a purpose. In the open world, if I die, I lose. If I win, the other player's aggro isn't reset: it just goes up and I'll have to fight them again.

Out of all of the MMO's I've played Albion online was the only one with open-world PvP. There is a lot of motive to kill other players, you get their resources and their gear! What you talk about here basically is what, to me, makes Albion such a fun game. The risk, reward, the possibility of adversity at any moment, and the fact that even if you die you helped out your guild. It's great. The reason I am confused and what worries me, is that only corrupted will drop equipped items. I don't know how things will turn out but this strongly discourages PvP. Which I understand is the purpose of this mechanic. But Steven does wish for a risk/reward system. Getting a few mats probably isn't worth risking your gear. That's what I don't understand, what is the incentive to risk your gear? Just like how there is an incentive not to engage in PvP, there must be an incentive to engage in PvP. Otherwise, nobody but the bored max-level players will engage in it.

Last thing. I'm getting the feeling that I'm jumping the gun too early. We don't know how the economy in-game will work yet (both material economy and the loot drop rates from mobs), which will likely be the strongest incentive to engage in PvP.

SongRune

SorcererKingGown wrote: »

The reason I am confused and what worries me, is that only corrupted will drop equipped items. I don't know how things will turn out but this strongly discourages PvP. Which I understand is the purpose of this mechanic. But Steven does wish for a risk/reward system. Getting a few mats probably isn't worth risking your gear. That's what I don't understand, what is the incentive to risk your gear? Just like how there is an incentive not to engage in PvP, there must be an incentive to engage in PvP. Otherwise, nobody but the bored max-level players will engage in it.

The incentive to risk your gear is the odds of getting materials that are worth more than the gear is being higher than the odds of losing your gear.

You do not have a high chance to lose gear until you have built up a lot of corruption. Until then, the relatively low (though nonzero) chance of losing gear is likely intended to be less discouraging than the chance of gaining materials. Statistically, this is a simple Expected Value calculation, and easily tunable as such.

There's also no reason you necessarily need to bring your top level raiding gear when you go out to mug people.

SorcererKingGown

SongRune wrote: »

There's also no reason you necessarily need to bring your top level raiding gear when you go out to mug people.

I think you misunderstand... I absolutely MUST bring my top-level max over-enchanted raiding gear to mug level-2 adventurers (I respect that a level 1 doesn't fully understand the game yet)

SongRune

SorcererKingGown wrote: »

SongRune wrote: »

There's also no reason you necessarily need to bring your top level raiding gear when you go out to mug people.

I think you misunderstand... I absolutely MUST bring my top-level max over-enchanted raiding gear to mug level-2 adventurers (I respect that a level 1 doesn't fully understand the game yet)

Well then. I hope those mats are good!

Percimes

BlackBrony wrote: »

Percimes wrote: »

And that's what's great, for me, about battlegrounds: everyone is aware of what the objectives are and which side they're on. If I die and it helps my team/side win, it was not in vain: it served a purpose. In the open world, if I die, I lose. If I win, the other player's aggro isn't reset: it just goes up and I'll have to fight them again.

But that destroy the social interaction. Why bother talking to someone else if they know what's going to happen. There's no mistery. If you want something like that you need to play an instanced game.
Open World PvP is great because of that. Because you don't know what's going to happen.

In many games with open world PvP players were locked into a faction chosen at character creation and there was little means to communicate with the opposing side. Dark Age of Camelot, Warhammer Age of Reckoning, World of Warcraft, and many other popular MMOs made talking with the enemy impossible in game (aside from a few emotes). Not going to be like that in Ashes of Creation at least.

You may like not knowing what is going to happen, but whenever you decide you'll be someone else mystery they lose control over their own narrative. You force them to change their plans, drop whatever they wanted to do so they can become your opponents. Don't get me wrong, if the game's rules and mechanics allow it that's perfectly fine. Players should know what they've signed for. But there will always be friction when a game caters to more PvE oriented people for some part of its gameplay and to PvP minded ones for other part of the gameplay, and then force them to interact.

SorcererKingGown wrote: »

Percimes wrote: »

If you've log in with an objective in mind, having someone else dictate what your playtime will be can be rather annoying. Each side have a different reason to be there.

And that's what's great, for me, about battlegrounds: everyone is aware of what the objectives are and which side they're on. If I die and it helps my team/side win, it was not in vain: it served a purpose. In the open world, if I die, I lose. If I win, the other player's aggro isn't reset: it just goes up and I'll have to fight them again.

Out of all of the MMO's I've played Albion online was the only one with open-world PvP. There is a lot of motive to kill other players, you get their resources and their gear! What you talk about here basically is what, to me, makes Albion such a fun game. The risk, reward, the possibility of adversity at any moment, and the fact that even if you die you helped out your guild. It's great. The reason I am confused and what worries me, is that only corrupted will drop equipped items. I don't know how things will turn out but this strongly discourages PvP. Which I understand is the purpose of this mechanic. But Steven does wish for a risk/reward system. Getting a few mats probably isn't worth risking your gear. That's what I don't understand, what is the incentive to risk your gear? Just like how there is an incentive not to engage in PvP, there must be an incentive to engage in PvP. Otherwise, nobody but the bored max-level players will engage in it.

Last thing. I'm getting the feeling that I'm jumping the gun too early. We don't know how the economy in-game will work yet (both material economy and the loot drop rates from mobs), which will likely be the strongest incentive to engage in PvP.

Player dropping gear may sound cool, but it implies that gear is fairly easy to replace (at least to have a operational character) or not the most relevant part of character progression. Both options are rather against what defines most MMOs. If you want gear to be meaningful and still droppable, you get a dangerous downward spiral, and lose players. I'm not an item driven player, so I'm totally fine with a rusty sword being only slightly worse then one crafted with rare components obtained by defeating 5 world bosses and completing 6 dungeons. Most people aren't though.

Aerlana

one part of the wow classic nostalgia is its open world PvP. mainly 2 things : hillsbrad battle, and stranglethorn.

Benefits from killing characters in open world ? not big, even to progress thru PvP rank (because battleground were fast a thing and good spot to farm it) and for most people this PvP rank was more a proof of their PvP love than anything... in my own experience, was easier to stuff thru pvE (and then kill people in PvP

)

For me, the first incentiv to do open world PvP in ashes or other mmorpg allowing it is simple :
BLOOD FOR BLOOD GOD
SKULLS FOR THRONE OF SKULLS

Myosotys

SorcererKingGown wrote: »

I understand the incentive to kill corrupted players. I don't understand the incentive to kill other characters. Yes if there is a caravan of materials or preventing a player from using your mining spot that is a pretty decent incentive, but what about all the other times? I remember being told Ashes isn't supposed to be a gank fest (which I am glad for), but with gear drops only occuring for corrupted players what other reasons do I have to ever engage in open world PvP?

PvP players will defend your ressources so it seems logical that non pvp players get flag. Also it is not acceptable that a player can farm ressources with any possibilities to get kicked out of the area. It will be a non sense for all PvP players.

The system of None combatant, combatant, corrupted is excellent on the papyer (maybe it will need some adjustment in the future).

We saw the hybrid games PvP/not pvp like New World and it clearly failed.

If Im not mistaking, you can stay none combatant and you will not risk your gear if you die.

akabear

A few thoughts

PVP

Players who do it for fun/challenge
Players / Guilds who have grief with each other - stolen goods, bad faith, stolen castles
Players who want to defend/obtain a resource, guild and / or node
Players who want to prevent or improve a nodes advancement
Players who want to get access to raids

PVE

Whilst may still sometimes engage in pvp, perhaps the PvE only clans amass wealth to surreptitiously ally or employ PvP guilds to achieve their goals and visa versa.

Iskiab

I've played lots of PvP games through the years, I've found there's no need to provide a reason for players to try and kill each other, that's the easy part.

The hard part is developing a game where there's a reason to maintain opposing factions. In a lot of games players will jump on whatever side is winning, or will try and join the largest group for the advantage it brings. When one side starts winning it snowballs and the losing side collapses.

Depraved

farm players, not trees or ores

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