Remove leveling up or make it harder and fun

1) Why do we have leveling up in MMOs?
2) Why Ashes of Creation needs the leveling up phase?

In single player RPGs leveling gives a sense of progression while presenting the story.
When the player reaches max level, the end of story might also be close.
The fun comes from seeing how the fight style changes when a new skill is added.

In MMORPGs knowing how to play against other classes makes us read and watch videos to learn them too.
And makes sense to go through the story only once, for the first character.
Maybe different races have different stories?
Anyway I like pressing the ESC key to skip everything. I don't care about story when I see players running around skipping content too.

On release the developers anticipate max level should be attainable in approximately 45 days if playing 4-6 hours per day.[14][15]

I think the 45 days leveling in AoC is very short. Some players will definitely reach max level in half that time.
So why do we have it in this game?

I think the life of the character at mid levels should be fun too.
But as it is now, the leveling up phase is a disadvantage for AoC.

How can this game, based on caravans, nodes wars and risk vs rewards be adjusted to let players see and enjoy these aspects while leveling up?
Why would anyone go through this 2nd and 3rd time?

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Comments

Ironhope

Personally I like leveing to take very long assuming the leveling conent (quests, lower level crafting and economy, lower level dungeons and raids, etc) is solid.

But I understand this isn't for everyone even if the leveling content is good and that a balance needs to be reached.

I think 45 days of 4-6 hours a day (I will feel lucky if I get to play 2-3 hours a day, every other day) is a pretty decent balance assuming their leveling content will be good.

I would still boost it to 50-55 days but regardless...

In the mmos I played so far, most recently WoW classic, leveling was the most dynamic and fun part.

Strevi wrote: »

How can this game, based on caravans, nodes wars and risk vs rewards be adjusted to let players see and enjoy these aspects while leveling up?

I can see lower level players having a role in node sieges by using cannons/balistas/catapults, by activating traps (pouring burning oil from the wall for example) and stuff like that.

As for caravans, yeah thats' definetly going to be harder.

Strevi wrote: »

Why would anyone go through this 2nd and 3rd time?

1. Wanting to see how other cool classes play and feel.
2. Wanting to have alts with various professions and to bank stuff.
3. Wanting to level again with your buddy.
4. As I said, leveling is the most dynamic and fun part of the game. You keep finding grear and getting talents, feeling like your birthday every time, the questing is fun and you keep moving to place to playce enjoying the world and its stories, the world pvp is awesome, etc

I mean, I might just not even bother much with max level but instead keep leveling 2-3 chars just to see what I like most and to enjoy the process.

Mastru

The whole point of an MMO or an RPG is the journey. Leveling is part of the journey, so is finding an equipping new gear and unlocking more of the story.

Removing any of these components will effectively ruin the journey.

Ludullu

Or, alternatively, those low lvl people can just do that content at low levels. L2 was the same at low lvls as it was at the top ones. That's the beauty of a sandbox game - you can have fun as soon as you want. And Steven has already said that their plan is to provide fun content all throughout the leveling process rather than just at the end.

Nova_terra

NiKr wrote: »

Or, alternatively, those low lvl people can just do that content at low levels. L2 was the same at low lvls as it was at the top ones. That's the beauty of a sandbox game - you can have fun as soon as you want. And Steven has already said that their plan is to provide fun content all throughout the leveling process rather than just at the end.

I think this is correct, I am 100% certain that there will be some "path" to max level that will be discovered over the life of the game. It might be grind this mob for levels 1-15, grind this mob for 15-30. But sandbox games remain open in the fact that you can run caravans at level 15 the same as you can at 50. So you aren't "missing" anything the first time around and it's not like a theme park where you go to x city and pick up these 5 quests then rinse repeat. If you want to level an alt you can run it through whatever content you want or follow the "alt level guide" and get your alt to 50 in a week or whatever but there will be content all the way through especially with the landscape of the world looking possibly much different the 2nd time you level so new quests and areas are open to you.

Arya_Yeshe

The only games I truly loved in this subject where Ultima Online and EVE Online.

Ultima Online because there's no level, you can just play and you will get to max, but let people to run afk macros non stop for days just to get the character ready... so for the community was a bad thing

EVE Online has no levels and you slowly gain skill points passively even if you are offline, so you can do whatever you want and on the side you can train something entirely different. A guy trading in a station could be actually training combat skills. EVE Online has no problems in this, except for the fact that it takes between 25 and 27 years to level all skills.. but if you train for 5 years only you are kinda all set in most cases.

Leveling systems have the advantage of rewarding you for your efforts, on the bad side if you don't play then you dont level! That's I liked that in World of Warcraft would receive bonus xp for taking a break, that is awesome.

So yeah, leveling systems are ok... telling people to take a break and rewarding them with xp bonus when they come back is also nice

Arya_Yeshe

Hartassen wrote: »

The whole point of an MMO or an RPG is the journey. Leveling is part of the journey, so is finding an equipping new gear and unlocking more of the story.

Removing any of these components will effectively ruin the journey.

Only if the content is good, when the content is poor then it's just a grind

In most cases player driven content is superior, until today no company could create content that was better than player driven content

BaSkA_9x2

MMOs need time gates. Leveling is just a common time gate. If not for leveling adventurer level, you'll have to "progress" something different, like weapon trees, etc.

Time gates are all the same, some better than others, but still, time gates.

Mr_MaDrupalow

The leveling process should take way longer then what is currently planned. At least the double amount of time. Archiving Milestones like 10,25,30,40,50 should unlock certain key-features in the game, which it does. But it shouldn't be the main goal in AoC. Leveling should be some sort of a passive progression, while you doing PvP, PvE, Artisans, Events [...]. Which I'm not sure about in AoC. In many games I played leveling felt more like a thing you have to do immediatly and without a break. You log in, level, log off. Next day the same until you reach Endcontent, if there is some. That was your main goal and only goal for the first days/weeks.
The majority of the players where doing that, there was an invisible force who holds on to you balls and pulls tighter when you don't follow along.

Where is the balance between the important Milestones but still aiming for a more passive leveling experience? The game won't run away the Map is huge you will have so much content shoved up your botty and that in a positive way ofc.

Folks I know there always will be Hardcore Guilds and Hardcore players. And if they decide to do so, sure why not, a game is there to be played and that in any way you want, as long as you don't bother other people with it. But it would be awesome if this invisible force stops sticking to your balls. Meaning that choosing to not speed level would give you little to no disadvantage.

Edit : Dungeons and Raids which fit to your Gearscore instead to your level, would be a big help already !

Ehrgeiz

Edit : Dungeons and Raids which fit to your Gearscore instead to your level, would be a big help already !

absolute disgusting

Mr_MaDrupalow

Dungeons and Raids which fit to your Gearscore insted to your level, would be a big help already !

Ehrgeiz wrote: »

Edit : Dungeons and Raids which fit to your Gearscore instead to your level, would be a big help already !

absolute disgusting

Okay ! You prefer the easy way? Going into a Dungeon/Raid with a level 10 recommendation with your level 50 group and oneshotting everything?

Ehrgeiz

Mr_MaDrupalow wrote: »

Dungeons and Raids which fit to your Gearscore insted to your level, would be a big help already !

Ehrgeiz wrote: »

Edit : Dungeons and Raids which fit to your Gearscore instead to your level, would be a big help already !

absolute disgusting

Okay ! You prefer the easy way? Going into a Dungeon/Raid with a level 10 recommendation with your level 50 group and oneshotting everything?

yes and looting 2 copper, an apple and a green item worth 5 copper.

Nova_terra

Mr_MaDrupalow wrote: »

Dungeons and Raids which fit to your Gearscore insted to your level, would be a big help already !

Ehrgeiz wrote: »

Edit : Dungeons and Raids which fit to your Gearscore instead to your level, would be a big help already !

absolute disgusting

Okay ! You prefer the easy way? Going into a Dungeon/Raid with a level 10 recommendation with your level 50 group and oneshotting everything?

I am not sure what part of this is what you are thinking is the "easy way". Sure you as a level 10 can run with a group of 50s through some content, but if you are in a dungeon there is a good chance there is another team in there and the risk is that you get absolutely dumpstered by the guys in there that are all 50. The reward is that level 10 is experiencing high level content and maybe getting large amounts of exp. Or if you are speaking to instanced dungeons, not even sure how the level 10 will survive/get in or if it's gated in some way.

The whole point and the main pillar of this game is risk vs reward. Every choice carries risk in the hopes of equal reward. I may be missing your angle here, but I am not sure what you are getting at with this "easy" way.

Mr_MaDrupalow

@Nova_terra what I mean is that if you run a level 10 dungeon as a level 50 player, you will rush through that dungeon in no-time. Yes you would get the same low level rewards but you could spam those. Which would lead to a perma-empty dungeon, if it is not instanced. And that leading to other players not being able to run that dungeon until somebody comes up who is stronger than you and kills you.
Seems pretty unbalanced to me.
But if the Dungeon adapts to your Gear - not the other way around, People will always have the challenge inside there. PvP and PvE sided. This would prevent spaming because you will be in there for a long time.
Of course to that would come a loot adaption aswell. When you are running "Joses garden" with 1000 GS you should get more than

Ehrgeiz wrote: »

yes and looting 2 copper, an apple and a green item worth 5 copper.

You probably would get Mithril Ores to gather or enhacement stuff

And if you run "Joses Garden" with 100 GS you would get still get more than

Ehrgeiz wrote: »

yes and looting 2 copper, an apple and a green item worth 5 copper.

like Iron Ore, Gear, Weapons with 120 GS or so

jarjarblinks

I don't think leveling is inherently "bad" by no means. But I think focusing on strategy and maximum customization should be prioritized over conventional linear leveling systems. This way, "Meta" doesn't have to be conventional and linear. Hopefully, leveling won't be too relevant with their current rock paper scissor party class balancing, class customization, and other stat/play customization tools. I see leveling as the start-up? the linear progression to understand the game mechanics and the lore? Then everything else should/will be customized (parties in particular) to outdo the enemy players.

In a perfect world, character leveling (and classes) will be thrown out altogether, and the better player/party is the one who customizes and optimizes for the occasion and has earned their abilities, gear, and titles through player-selected & curated achievements/quests -- (not through quest lines that almost everyone has done or easily repeatable by a quick wiki search). But this is just me.

Nova_terra

Mr_MaDrupalow wrote: »

@Nova_terra what I mean is that if you run a level 10 dungeon as a level 50 player, you will rush through that dungeon in no-time. Yes you would get the same low level rewards but you could spam those. Which would lead to a perma-empty dungeon, if it is not instanced. And that leading to other players not being able to run that dungeon until somebody comes up who is stronger than you and kills you.
Seems pretty unbalanced to me.
But if the Dungeon adapts to your Gear - not the other way around, People will always have the challenge inside there. PvP and PvE sided. This would prevent spaming because you will be in there for a long time.
Of course to that would come a loot adaption aswell. When you are running "Joses garden" with 1000 GS you should get more than

Ehrgeiz wrote: »

yes and looting 2 copper, an apple and a green item worth 5 copper.

You probably would get Mithril Ores to gather or enhacement stuff

And if you run "Joses Garden" with 100 GS you would get still get more than

Ehrgeiz wrote: »

yes and looting 2 copper, an apple and a green item worth 5 copper.

like Iron Ore, Gear, Weapons with 120 GS or so

As a pvp player, it would take next to no thought on my part to run to whatever dungeon is being camped by a high level party and get my 5 best friends to beat them up if they were cutting off a large experience for low level guildmates. Heck even just someone in gen chat saying "we can't get in someone is camping the entrance" would probably be something I would take a bite at. I just don't see how camping a low level dungeon would reap any reward. In this case I forsee it being marked as a low risk/ low reward for those 50s and while they are doing that, I am raiding high level caravans and they eventually just fall behind. Of course this is assuming good game design and that it isn't in their best interest to sit in a low level dungeon (balance/game design). But if everything scales you end up with a horribly same-y experience where people are gear checking you at the door to meet x threshold for "hot lootz". I like the idea of creating soft friction with no scaled dungeons/ow areas and creating an environment where these people are exploring other parts of the world and don't really have time to be multiboxing a dungeon or afk farming low level mats for their bud.

novercalis

I really wish they would go the everquest route in terms of STORIES and getting XP.

I don't want people to be able to hit max level via Main Quest / Side Quest or just 100% Questing.

BUT a significant chunk of XP should be via quest. Maybe 50% of XP is doing quests.

BUT finding these quests arent easy. I know AOC isnt going to have quest giver to be obvious, and it's just a nameplate color - however I DISAGREE WITH THIS.
Just Like EQ - you really didnt know who had a quest and who didnt. You had to INTERACT with the NPC and type command prompts.

I believe this style of questing FORCES players to read and learn the story.
I do not remember if AOC will have a "QUEST LOG" but I hope it doesnt or doesn't give the full answer of what the quest asked of you.
Basically, you would forced to read the NPC chat, get the context clue or location and then figure it out. Some of the Questing in EQ was difficult and some were SUPER LONG.. The Epic Weapon Quest Line was notorious and awesome and had you travel all over the world. This made Questing and the RPG element in the MMO feel EPIC.

So your concern is aobut why we have questing and most players (including me in almost every mmo) hits the ESC to skip the story, cause we get a TL;DR quest log with the location and answer.... EQ questing doesnt do that.. you gotta READ it, get the context clue and then go there. No Quest Log or if so, just title of the quest name. No Clues / requirements is shown. People will become invested in the story. And hey, if you don't want to do Quest for XP - you got other avenues. Since this only covers 50%. You can grind or whatever.

neuroguy

Leveling is a way to time gate power progression and serves several key purposes. It can help introduce game mechanics and class mechanics in piecemeal ways so that players can learn and experiment without being bored or overwhelmed. It provides content to look forward to and aspire to, whether that is content to overcome like dungeons and bosses or new skills/mechanics that you unlock. Max level, in my opinion, is a useful concept to communicate to the player that their ability-based power progression has come to an end vertically speaking. If there was no leveling and only gear set players apart, it would risk classes being either too simplistic or overwhelming to new players. It also removes time gates that can build anticipation and excitement.

All of that being said, I can sympathize with wanting to shake up leveling as a concept. I proposed an idea where XP bars were hidden or just provided ~20% progress markers for each level to discourage min/maxing lvling or hunting optimal strategies. Not quite the same motivation or outcome as your proposal but you know. Though, one of the IS mods pretty much said they are not likely to do anything quite that dramatic. Link here if you're interested.

novercalis

I do like the concept of XP Bar only moves in CHUNKS.
So it discourage players looking if my bar is moving fast or not.
Hell I would move it to 25 or 33%

Strevi

Hartassen wrote: »

The whole point of an MMO or an RPG is the journey. Leveling is part of the journey, so is finding an equipping new gear and unlocking more of the story.

Removing any of these components will effectively ruin the journey.

Then getting corrupted will be fun, as you can do the last steps of the journey over and over.

Strevi

neuroguy wrote: »

Leveling is a way to time gate power progression and serves several key purposes. It can help introduce game mechanics and class mechanics in piecemeal ways so that players can learn and experiment without being bored or overwhelmed. It provides content to look forward to and aspire to, whether that is content to overcome like dungeons and bosses or new skills/mechanics that you unlock. Max level, in my opinion, is a useful concept to communicate to the player that their ability-based power progression has come to an end vertically speaking. If there was no leveling and only gear set players apart, it would risk classes being either too simplistic or overwhelming to new players. It also removes time gates that can build anticipation and excitement.

All of that being said, I can sympathize with wanting to shake up leveling as a concept. I proposed an idea where XP bars were hidden or just provided ~20% progress markers for each level to discourage min/maxing lvling or hunting optimal strategies. Not quite the same motivation or outcome as your proposal but you know. Though, one of the IS mods pretty much said they are not likely to do anything quite that dramatic. Link here if you're interested.

I never thought about not seeing my experience level. I try to imagine how I would detect that I improve my skills. I remember running or falling from heights in one of the Elder Scrolls games. Also in Valheim, running and jumping to raise my skill. I don't know if making a 2nd character and doing that again is fun.

The anticipation you mentioned is indeed a valid reason but is not enough.
The leveling for me would be fun if the path would contain stages which a high level character cannot experience. Then going from a stage to the next would be something new, and also a veteran player would want to start an alt again to go through those stages once more.

Discovering what other classes can do works only if I do not watch youtube videos.
Or in case of AoC, if I do not play the Alpha 2 and I stop watching the monthly updates.

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