Economy in AoC - what do you think will work the best

Have you got any ideas how to make economy stable. I tried some MMOs recently (played WoW for 15 years) and there was not a single MMO that has stable economy (one that feels like Vanilla WoW - and Vanilla WoW only - all other classic WoW expansions felt similar, but not same).

Example from Vanilla WoW: you could farm 50-120 gold per hour depending on your farming method and you would buy 1 piece of food for 25-30g if you were tank or around 5-10g if DPS/HEAL, consider that this piece of food lasts 20min and buff removes upon death. Flasks for example cost around 75-120-200g depending on your role. Runes cost around 25g (runes are usable mainly by healers because they give mana, but also damages you for same amount) - Runes are farmable in dungeons and do not drop very often - maybe 2-3 runes per run (45min-1h run). There are some examples of sustainable crafts in vanilla WoW or ones that are farmable, but how to achieve this realistic economy? I remember for example bags would cost 6-7 silver on vendor and people were selling them for 4silver because they would make them from tailoring - those bags were 6 slot bags. In every 10 levels in settlement there would be a new vendor that sells bags for bigger price, this also means that people would sell them for little bit lower then that price. Could this be reason to make stable economy because only devs know how much gold we would be getting from quests, they could design whole market properly if they focused on doing that.

Is this good solution or just let players decide and risk everything? I think its better for devs to focus on delivering that.

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Jahlon

WoW is a horrible case study for a good player driven economy because as you said, many things are available from NPC vendors, which puts artificial price caps on player created items.

Eve Online has an amazing economy because other than looting NPC drops, the only way to get the things you need is to buy them from a player who looted it as well, or from someone who crafted it. The big items, you can only make yourself or buy from someone who made it.

VekoKrava

I would argue about that, because no one is going to pay for 7silver per bag if you could get bag for 4 silver, there is non stop trading going on channels and auction house. 3 silver is a lot as a fresh character and there is possibility of limiting and deciding econony. Better for devs to decide then players that have no idea about it. We see how new world econony went. It is risky to give players full power.

Arya_Yeshe

EVE Online is the only game with real economy, let me tell you why:

nearly all items come from players
or it was gathered by a player
or it was built by a player
bought my players, sold by players
all kills generate a split between destroyed items and lootable items
so when you die you lose 100%

Here it shows my victim losing everything he had in that ships, gray lines are destroyed modules/items and green lines are loot, this was a piracy kill:

All items here were built by players, every single round of ammo put in this dude's hull were manufactured by players!

In AoC we will have destruction in the wars and at sea, really important for the economy.
Consumables and ammunition are also really important.

The market in EVE is not global, all markets are regional markets!
So every region will have a different mean average for the items

has buy order for an item, tells the quantity and desired price
has sell orders for items, haivng quantity and desired price
you can immediatelly buy or sell to those orders
or you can add your orders there and wait, people will trade on your orders, could take seconds or weeks
npcs do buy and sell stuff like that are equivalent to tokens and trade goods that noobs trade for making a little money

So in EVE the market is completely alive and it is a real market just like a stock market.
EVE maybe is the only game with a real economy

Here I am selling Catalysts, it's a destroyer, selling for 2.06 milions each unit down there are people looking to buy for 1.7 mil

Here is the price history of Neutron Blasters II

Anything that Intrepid could do in that direction then we should embrace it, in EVE when players see there is too much of an item in the market and they can't profit from farminig or producing it, then they move to another item. It's that simple, if demand is low then people move to the next item.

Also in AoC it's important that Intrepid forces people into skilling up by crafting many different items, because skilling up by producing one item completely breaks the value of that item.

Also... how items will be delivered and hauled in AoC matters a lot to the economy!

VekoKrava

I ubderstand why it is important to have eve economy, but new world has same economy all provided by players nk npcs and it sucks. I can buy potion for 2g and I can farm 5k on some low lvl farm msterials. Vanilla wow has by far the best economy, not the best crafting, but gold really matter there. If this was real world and you could use potion that saves you from death, it should be valuable... this is why vanilla is immersive.

Ludullu

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

I ubderstand why it is important to have eve economy, but new world has same economy all provided by players nk npcs and it sucks. I can buy potion for 2g and I can farm 5k on some low lvl farm msterials

You should probably look at how long EVE has been alive (as a single server btw) and how long NW has been around. And then think, is it the problem with the economy system or literally the entirety of the rest of the game that is the issue. A small hint: it's the latter.

novercalis

I felt UO (before duping and botting) had a good economy and Everquest.

Both were player Driven and 80-90% of the items couldnt be bought from NPC originally. However if you do sell it to an NPC - the NPC is able to sell it back, usually at outrages price & those prices never dictated the value of item.

Both games had limited amount of items - UO being much much much smaller of item ids. Everquest - you scaled in level with weapons/armor being bonuses, whereas most other games, Your Gear represents your power.

Jumping into p99 today - game prices isnt insanely high for newbies to attain either, whereas other games, the older the game, the more the items ends up costing. What was once 100g becomes 10,000 gold due to inflation, where EQ everything is reasonable for a new player to enter and not be intimidated.

Quick Glimpse of P99 economy as of this week

https://unixgeek.com/last-week-P1999Green.html

Goalid

Here's an analysis of Ultima Online's economy which describes some problems with in-game vendors, also one of the first analysis of a virtual economy: https://web.archive.org/web/20020730225856/https://www.mine-control.com/zack/uoecon/uoecon.html

Ashes needs to have nearly everything created by players, and very little and preferably no completed items given by mob drops, chests, or quests. In addition, there needs to be plenty of sinks for gold and items in order to prevent inflation and deflation.

Ludullu

L2 also sold the barebones in terms of items and most of them were t1-2 low tier stuff, with everything else being purely crafted/dropped. And every item could be sold to an NPC for a set price, which created the pricing floor, but there was no ceiling.

And as long as most bots (ideally all) were banned, the economy on the server was quite healthy. The market in this video (each window above a sitting character is a player shop of some sort) is roughly 1/3-1/4 packed when compared to a really big server w/o bots. And there'd be 2-3 such markets across the server, or just one suuuuper packed one (x6-9 the size of this).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9cCT2h4xuw

Tyranthraxus

Yours truly has seen the "de-centralized economy" fail before; Not a fan of the present plans for the to-be in-game market/market listings. It typically looks good on paper - but I don't suspect it will serve functionally.

SWTOR took a very similar approach - and there WERE other factors at-play(i.e. SOE just straight-up makes a LOT of terrible decisions) at launch, that doomed their original plans. Originally? SWTOR had an Imperial market, a Republic market, and a 3rd-party, non-factional market on *1* planet(moon, actually) called Nar Shaddaa. The listings were also limited to being up for 3 days at a time, since that was what WoW was doing in 2011, and the developers wanted to take NO RISKS, whatsoever.... WHAT A MESS! This resulted in scant listings, predatory prices, and few other similar items against which to price-compare, for listings. This was changed to a centralized market in the opening months of the game, long before 2.0 was even being popularized.

Am highly suspecting the plans for the market-format will change, during Alpha 2 - or soon after launch. The market-linking option of Merchant Nodes seems cool - but might just become the whole-market norm, very early in.

tautau

Re: @NiKr 's comments on the L2 economy. It was a lot of fun to wander the player market in Giran. Occasionally you could find a real deal or mis-priced items you could buy from one vendor and quickly sell to another for a profit.

L2 also allowed you to deconstruct items of various grades to get the 'crystals' of that item's grade. The crystals could be used by dwarves to craft 'shots' which increased the strength of your various attacks. As player population and levels grew, the use of these 'shots' went from rare use to constant use, so there was a significant demand for items to deconstruct to turn into shots. The shots were only available from player crafting, not from NPCs. This took a great deal of items out of the world economy.

Arya_Yeshe

UO "economy" was just people crafting and selling stuff directly to npcs

Let's bring what AoC has on the table today:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Markets

Auction house where raw resources and processed goods may be posted.[3]

Auction house where raw resources and processed goods may be posted.[3]
Trade hauling stables for Tier 1 mule training.[3]
Player shop areas for personal shop deployment and rental stalls.[3]
Private property sale certificates.[3]
Hunter’s Post (higher redemption for Tier 1 creature bounties).[3]
Auction houses enable players to list items at the Economic node in which the auction house is located.[9]

ECONOMY:
Markets in Ashes of Creation are regional, which means that each market has its own character. Because resources will shift locations as they’re exhausted, this will keep people moving about the world, seeking out the best resources for their crafting builds, and the best markets for their goods.[17]

There will be item decay (material sinks), deconstruction mechanics and other gold sinks to combat inflation.[19][20]

MARKETPLACES: grant certain trade benefits as well as player stalls that the citizens may participate in.

- Marketplaces are constructible node buildings that are available for placement by mayors of any Town (stage 4) node or higher. These are distinct from a market, which is the unique node building that unlocks at Village (stage 3) of Economic nodes.[1]

- Marketplaces grant certain trade benefits as well as player stalls that the citizens may participate in.[1]

These are buildings that the mayor has agency over determining whether or not they should be a constructed project. Constructible buildings can be selected at open plots that are gained as the as the node advances. If they elect to begin construction of one of these types of buildings- one of which is the marketplace- it'll grant certain trade benefits as well as some stalls that the citizens may participate in.[1] – Steven Sharif

AUCTION HOUSE:
Auction houses enable players to list items at the Economic node in which the auction house is located.[9]

- A listing fee will be charged to list items in the auction house.[9]

- Vassal nodes of the auction house node will be able to view items that are listed on that auction house, regardless of node type of the vassal node.[9]

- This will be possible through an auctioneer emissary NPC in that node.[9]

- Items cannot be listed in non-economic vassal nodes.[9]

- Items listed are also visible in community boards (bulletin boards).[10]

- Integrated auction houses allow players to purchase items directly from remote auction houses.[10]

- Purchases of materials and gatherables will be automatically deposited within the listing node's local warehouse. Players will need to travel to that warehouse to retrieve them. Players wishing to move these items elsewhere will need to utilize the caravan system or other type of transportation.[11][9]

- Purchases of anything other than materials and gatherables will be mailed to the purchaser.[11]

PLAYER SHOP:
A player shop is where you have a certificate to essentially create a shop with your character and a little billboard will pop up above you as you sit down for that shop and advertise a custom message that you want say that has to sell things and/or services that are on your person. So players can then come up to you and they can interact with you. So you reside yourself to that shop.[23] – Steven Sharif

Certificates to place Personal shops (player-owned shops) may be purchased by citizens and non-citizens from Economic nodes.[3][4][5]

These certificates allow the placement of a personal shop near the unique building in an economic node or on a freehold.[3][4][5]
Once the economic node has reached metropolis stage, personal shops may be placed anywhere in the world.[3][5]

PLAYER STALL: at Marketplaces
All nodes do have the ability to spawn player stalls. If you're not an economic node and you don't have a market- that's essentially your unique building- then you can construct essentially what is I guess would be called a... marketplace; and that marketplace will then come with certain services and it will come with a certain number of stalls. The economic node as I recall has the ability to construct an auction house and the auction house serves through the economic means the ability to list and sell items and that comes with additional stalls as well for the players.[4] – Steven Sharif

- Player stalls (also called Kiosks and rental stalls) are rentable locations near the unique building in an Economic node[5] or in Marketplaces (the constructible building available for placement by mayors of any Town (stage 4) node or higher).[1]

- Player stalls are linked to a player's warehouse.[8]

- An attendant NPC is assigned to the stall.[8][6] This may be an "image" of the player.[10]

- Stall sales are also listed in auction houses.[11]

STORAGE:
Raw materials and gatherables are automatically deposited within the listing node's local warehouse.[14][10]
Anything other than raw materials and gatherables will be mailed to the purchaser.[14]

ADVERTISING:
Items listed are visible in community boards (bulletin boards).[3]
Metropolis level economic nodes enable worldwide sale prices for auction houses across Verra.[12]

LOCATION:
At Markets in Village economic nodes allow raw resources and processed goods to be posted.[12]
At Exchanges in Town nodes allow all goods/items to be posted.[12]
Metropolis stage Economic nodes enable remote bidding from linked economic nodes.[12]
Auctioneer NPC emissaries present in Vassal nodes allow some access to the parent node's auction house.[10]

ECONOMIC NODE BENEFITS:
Economic nodes that have reached the metropolis stage unlock the linked economy superpower. Economic nodes with this superpower share their Auction house listings with all others.[3]

Up to two economic metropolises may be linked in this manner.[6]
Metropolis level economic nodes enable worldwide sale prices for auction houses across Verra.[3]
Items listed in one linked economic node can be bid on from any other linked economic node.[3]
Linked economies also connect the economic metropolis and its vassal economic nodes.[3]

WAREHOUSES:
Warehouses are storage points within a node.[1][2][3][4]

Warehouses may enable a player to transfer non-material goods between alts. This excludes resources, materials or anything that relies on the caravan system.[2]
Players are prohibited from moving goods out of depositories within a node following a siege declaration against that node.[5][6][4]
Player stalls are linked to that player's warehouse.[7]
A portion of all Materials (crafting components) and Gatherables that were stored in successfully sieged nodes become lootable to the victors of the siege as spoils of war.[3][4][8]
Whole items (crafted items) are not vulnerable to loss during node sieges.[7]
Corrupt players may not store items in public warehouses.[9]

MAILING ITEMS:
Raw gatherables and materials are not able to be mailed by players.[31][32][33]
Purchases of anything other than materials and gatherables from integrated auction houses will be mailed to the purchaser.[34]
Social messages sent via mail will be received instantly.[31]
It hasn't been decided whether crafted items such as gear will be able to be sent via mail.[31]

Arya_Yeshe

So it's already defined, the market is regional, but you can upgrade an economic node to metropolis and then you go global.

Also you cant list nodes if you are in a vassal node that is not an economic node apparently:
- Items cannot be listed in non-economic vassal nodes.[9]

Economy will possibly be slow in nodes that aren't economic nodes

The MARKETPLACES will have the good stuff if you live in a non economic node, since you can have player stalls there

A way of bypassing the limitations of node types is the PLAYER SHOP, since you can buy a certificate even being a non-citizen from an Economic node. You can place your shop at your freehold... so you are a citizen of some type from somewhere since you gotta have a freehold.

Purchases of anything other than materials and gatherables from integrated auction houses will be mailed to the purchaser.[34]

Arya_Yeshe

Did I understand correctly?
We won't have the auction house on every node?

Azherae

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Did I understand correctly?
We won't have the auction house on every node?

Yes, you did, that's the current design concept.

Even some of the nodes where you have the option to list things, you can't buy things.

Also, depending on what you DO buy, you may still have to go all the way to the node to get it.

Arya_Yeshe

Azherae wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Did I understand correctly?
We won't have the auction house on every node?

Yes, you did, that's the current design concept.

Even some of the nodes where you have the option to list things, you can't buy things.

Also, depending on what you DO buy, you may still have to go all the way to the node to get it.

Ouch.

What I would do is integrating the caravan system with the market and generate packages for caravans... people leaving one city would bring packages from random unknown people

This would be like a medieval FedEx

So people could buy stuff remotely, but the packages would stay there, a player will have to bring the package... it could be you or could be some random guy bringing for you

Azherae

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Did I understand correctly?
We won't have the auction house on every node?

Yes, you did, that's the current design concept.

Even some of the nodes where you have the option to list things, you can't buy things.

Also, depending on what you DO buy, you may still have to go all the way to the node to get it.

Ouch.

What I would do is integrating the caravan system with the market and generate packages for caravans... people leaving one city would bring packages from random unknown people

This would be like a medieval FedEx

So people could buy stuff remotely, but the packages would stay there, a player will have to bring the package... it could be you or could be some random guy bringing for you

We could ask for this to be possible, at least. The code for it wouldn't be terribly difficult, I think.

The failsafes and catches would be.

Arya_Yeshe

I will study the wiki a bit more and streams and think about this.

I made a living as merchant once roleplaying as a Ferengi merchant following the actual Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

So I have a lot of merchant experience in MMOs lol

I'm getting a little concerned about the caravans system and the economy

tautau

But, if you were sending merchandise from node to node as packages in caravans, if the caravan was attacked and looted, your package ought to also be looted and lost. Without insurance, much wiser to go get it yourself, I would think.

Arya_Yeshe

tautau wrote: »

But, if you were sending merchandise from node to node as packages in caravans, if the caravan was attacked and looted, your package ought to also be looted and lost. Without insurance, much wiser to go get it yourself, I would think.

Yes, looted!

I mean... If i am the caravaneer with my alt I could simply bring my main and kill my own caravan just to steal everything

The insurance system is flawed in this sense, the right thing to do should be having collateral... if the caravaneer wants to haul stuff then he has to pay for the collateral, if he delivers the packages then the collateral is given back to him... if he fails then the collateral goes to the clients

Glir

There should be no NPC-vendors in Ashes, all items should be crafted by players or looted from a mobs. This will keep the economy alive and valuable.

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