Key to a succesful economy

I think simple solution would be to make:

1. Ore vein to drop 1 item. Reason: because it makes things more simple. I think that New World economy collapsed because it was hard to put prices because vein dropped 40-60 ores (its more realistic, but it makes problems), solution would be magical veins that drop 1 simple magical ore.
Same goes for herbs or leather via skinning.

I think this is the ultimate reason as why Vanilla WoW has the best possible econony - everything was expensive and it felt worthiness of every item/consumable.
For skinning, some mobs could drop 1 leather, other leather scraps (x5 scraps form 1 leather)

2. Make non profession items similar to wow vanilla dark runes, droppable only in dungeon that provides either mana like mana potion which does not share cd with potions or some strong buff for 10seconds. (X3 drops per dungeon run, BOE and only 3 drops - that means people have to roll for it. (Make mana spending like EQ or vanilla WoW in order for these to be valuable)

3. Mana potions drop only from chests/human mobs (depending on lvl and area how strong mana pots are). For end game, make recipes 6% drop chance from PvE dungeon bosses - possibly from humanoid for immersion and to follow tradition of RPG games. (Mana spending should be like EQ or Vanilla Wow)

Why I am talking this? Because of simplicity. Everything is easier to organize if its simple.
Why making things harder? Because then these items/consumables are more valuable.

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Comments

Nova_terra

You seem to have an extremely heavy handed weight to what Vanilla WoW did. This game is definitely carving it's own path for better or for worse, but this game I fear will be a far cry from what Vanilla WoW was.

Part of the problem is WoW had an extremely lackluster crafting system, The economy crash in new world had nothing to do with drop rates and more about how they decided to map out tiered systems.

I'd hope they would look at Vanilla WoW, note some things they like and move along as this game should not try to re-create WoW or EQ.

VekoKrava

I am attached to Vanilla WoW because of all MMOs that I played, econony was not even close as good as WoW in early days.

I am mainly speaking this to make things valuable. If you make 60 ores to drop fom one vein it will be less valuable then if it dropped one. It also creates many problems on decising prices at early stage. You will need to have a calculator to do prices properly,but if you had these simple drops you would put prices easily out from your head.

I hope they make economy similar to vanilla, not gameplay. Economy means only numbers (gold) not to copy professions. I did give some examples on how to make more varieties to farm or make things more valuable and it is true if something is hsrder to get/less to get, economy will have more reasonable numbers, more familiar to IRL. 1g per ore feels much more realistic then 250g per ore, I hope you understand me now.

Nova_terra

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

I am attached to Vanilla WoW because of all MMOs that I played, econony was not even close as good as WoW in early days.

I am mainly speaking this to make things valuable. If you make 60 ores to drop fom one vein it will be less valuable then if it dropped one. It also creates many problems on decising prices at early stage. You will need to have a calculator to do prices properly,but if you had these simple drops you would put prices easily out from your head.

I hope they make economy similar to vanilla, not gameplay. Economy means only numbers (gold) not to copy professions. I did give some examples on how to make more varieties to farm or make things more valuable and it is true if something is hsrder to get/less to get, economy will have more reasonable numbers, more familiar to IRL. 1g per ore feels much more realistic then 250g per ore, I hope you understand me now.

Don't worry I am quite aware you mean economy only, but I don't think Ashes and the Intrepid team stand to gain anything from copying a 20 year dated formula. I realize for it's time it was the "best" we had in terms of economy but it was a (This is grossly my biased opinion as I am aware many people liked it) mildly bad minigame. I don't think units per drop has much meaning because it boils down to needing X amount of a resource and the numbers the system uses will be smaller but that doesn't change that you are getting X% of what you need per vein.

I do truly hope Ashes creates a robust crafting and gathering system, which by going off October's Livestream they certainly are (land management is an entirely different conversation) creating something that seems exciting and variable and means to create a good deal of friction and interaction but until we hit the ground in A2 we will have no idea but I can't help but feel I'd be severely underwhelmed if they just plugged some Vanilla WoW economy clone in.

Ludullu

The quantity doesn't matter at all, as long as any and all material sinks account for said quantity. Crafting recipes could take 5 items, when you could only gather 1 item per resource instance, or those recipes could use 200 items if you collected 40 per instance.

It's not about how much you gather, it's about how the devs balance that amount against all the things that are related to it. And it's obvious as fuck that NW's devs had no clue what they were doing, even before all the exploits and abuses of their systems.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

The quantity doesn't matter at all, as long as any and all material sinks account for said quantity. Crafting recipes could take 5 items, when you could only gather 1 item per resource instance, or those recipes could use 200 items if you collected 40 per instance.

It's not about how much you gather, it's about how the devs balance that amount against all the things that are related to it. And it's obvious as fuck that NW's devs had no clue what they were doing, even before all the exploits and abuses of their systems.

I hate when I've studied something so hard that it's become axiomatic and I've forgotten how to explain the proof.

It leads to the sort of dumb situation we're about to be in.

This isn't true.

Unfortunately I forgot how to prove it and would have to re-derive it from first principles. Ugh.

Vaknar

We hear ya on the importance of in-game economies! That's why we're building out our economy design team

If you know anyone qualified, feel free to send them here! https://intrepidstudios.com/careers

Azherae

Stack flux valuations in marketplaces! That was it! Or rather, the beginning of it.

Eh, it doesn't matter anyway, I will just count on whoever Intrepid hires knowing it. It's not as if me writing it out on the forum was going to save them any time anyway even if I could remember it all.

Game economy design is very specific, which is why you don't just 'hire a real-world economist to do it'. Plus, I'm just 'really confident', not 'sure'. If I was 'sure', I'd remember the proof, and even then it'd be a waste of time to try giving it, I bet.

So I'll only mention the following and if this doesn't 'jiggle' your mind, so be it @NiKr.

"The more of something there is, the lower its cost is relative to currency, and the more likely the value is to stay static because of the loss of gradients in price control of singles/small stacks."

I'm counting on you, future Senior Economy Designer!

novercalis

Azherae wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

The quantity doesn't matter at all, as long as any and all material sinks account for said quantity. Crafting recipes could take 5 items, when you could only gather 1 item per resource instance, or those recipes could use 200 items if you collected 40 per instance.

It's not about how much you gather, it's about how the devs balance that amount against all the things that are related to it. And it's obvious as fuck that NW's devs had no clue what they were doing, even before all the exploits and abuses of their systems.

I hate when I've studied something so hard that it's become axiomatic and I've forgotten how to explain the proof.

It leads to the sort of dumb situation we're about to be in.

This isn't true.

Unfortunately I forgot how to prove it and would have to re-derive it from first principles. Ugh.

I feel this!

I can only assume, that, like me, are entering the boomer stages

Azherae

novercalis wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

The quantity doesn't matter at all, as long as any and all material sinks account for said quantity. Crafting recipes could take 5 items, when you could only gather 1 item per resource instance, or those recipes could use 200 items if you collected 40 per instance.

It's not about how much you gather, it's about how the devs balance that amount against all the things that are related to it. And it's obvious as fuck that NW's devs had no clue what they were doing, even before all the exploits and abuses of their systems.

I hate when I've studied something so hard that it's become axiomatic and I've forgotten how to explain the proof.

It leads to the sort of dumb situation we're about to be in.

This isn't true.

Unfortunately I forgot how to prove it and would have to re-derive it from first principles. Ugh.

I feel this!

I can only assume, that, like me, are entering the boomer stages

Heh not exactly, let's just say I got a few years head start on various educations.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

"The more of something there is, the lower its cost is relative to currency, and the more likely the value is to stay static because of the loss of gradients in price control of singles/small stacks."

If I understood it right, it's just the fact that you can't really sell stuff properly when a single piece of that stuff is almost unpriceable, because it goes below the lowest value of currency. Is that roughly correct?

If it is, then yeah, I get what you're saying. Even if every single use of those mats utilized dozens of them at a time, the trading market would be shit because you'd have to counterweigh those "dozens" with some type of sub-currency that was only used in trading of mats, while everything else costed "normal currency". At which point you're starting to have issues with currency inflows relative to mat drop values and it all goes out of whack.

If that is somewhat correct, then yeah, I was wrong about mat quantities not impacting the economy at its bigger scale. If that's wrong, then I guess there wasn't enough jiggle in my mind

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

"The more of something there is, the lower its cost is relative to currency, and the more likely the value is to stay static because of the loss of gradients in price control of singles/small stacks."

If I understood it right, it's just the fact that you can't really sell stuff properly when a single piece of that stuff is almost unpriceable, because it goes below the lowest value of currency. Is that roughly correct?

If it is, then yeah, I get what you're saying. Even if every single use of those mats utilized dozens of them at a time, the trading market would be shit because you'd have to counterweigh those "dozens" with some type of sub-currency that was only used in trading of mats, while everything else costed "normal currency". At which point you're starting to have issues with currency inflows relative to mat drop values and it all goes out of whack.

If that is somewhat correct, then yeah, I was wrong about mat quantities not impacting the economy at its bigger scale. If that's wrong, then I guess there wasn't enough jiggle in my mind

You got it. There's ways to solve it, but game designers PROBABLY should never solve it in those ways because...

Well, by now I've repeated it enough times that you know where it ends up.

VekoKrava

Nova_terra wrote: »

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

I am attached to Vanilla WoW because of all MMOs that I played, econony was not even close as good as WoW in early days.

I am mainly speaking this to make things valuable. If you make 60 ores to drop fom one vein it will be less valuable then if it dropped one. It also creates many problems on decising prices at early stage. You will need to have a calculator to do prices properly,but if you had these simple drops you would put prices easily out from your head.

I hope they make economy similar to vanilla, not gameplay. Economy means only numbers (gold) not to copy professions. I did give some examples on how to make more varieties to farm or make things more valuable and it is true if something is hsrder to get/less to get, economy will have more reasonable numbers, more familiar to IRL. 1g per ore feels much more realistic then 250g per ore, I hope you understand me now.

Don't worry I am quite aware you mean economy only, but I don't think Ashes and the Intrepid team stand to gain anything from copying a 20 year dated formula. I realize for it's time it was the "best" we had in terms of economy but it was a (This is grossly my biased opinion as I am aware many people liked it) mildly bad minigame. I don't think units per drop has much meaning because it boils down to needing X amount of a resource and the numbers the system uses will be smaller but that doesn't change that you are getting X% of what you need per vein.

It has a big impact on how many gold something will cost, simply because of simllicity. New World is newer game and its economy failed so much that you dont need to farm gold in order to sustain yourself. Many games newer then wow have exactly the same problem. Wow is a masterpiece in every aspect.

Nova_terra

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Nova_terra wrote: »

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

I am attached to Vanilla WoW because of all MMOs that I played, econony was not even close as good as WoW in early days.

I am mainly speaking this to make things valuable. If you make 60 ores to drop fom one vein it will be less valuable then if it dropped one. It also creates many problems on decising prices at early stage. You will need to have a calculator to do prices properly,but if you had these simple drops you would put prices easily out from your head.

I hope they make economy similar to vanilla, not gameplay. Economy means only numbers (gold) not to copy professions. I did give some examples on how to make more varieties to farm or make things more valuable and it is true if something is hsrder to get/less to get, economy will have more reasonable numbers, more familiar to IRL. 1g per ore feels much more realistic then 250g per ore, I hope you understand me now.

Don't worry I am quite aware you mean economy only, but I don't think Ashes and the Intrepid team stand to gain anything from copying a 20 year dated formula. I realize for it's time it was the "best" we had in terms of economy but it was a (This is grossly my biased opinion as I am aware many people liked it) mildly bad minigame. I don't think units per drop has much meaning because it boils down to needing X amount of a resource and the numbers the system uses will be smaller but that doesn't change that you are getting X% of what you need per vein.

It has a big impact on how many gold something will cost, simply because of simllicity. New World is newer game and its economy failed so much that you dont need to farm gold in order to sustain yourself. Many games newer then wow have exactly the same problem. Wow is a masterpiece in every aspect.

You are taking a more complex set of problems New World had and boiling it down to "My Memory of Vanilla WoW is better than an experience I had recently". Vanilla WoW had a ton of problems, but again this game will not be WoW and they have stated as such. The closer they push to be like WoW the more people will leave and go play WoW. It's how it's stayed relevant for 20 years.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Well, by now I've repeated it enough times that you know where it ends up.

I wish I had stayed with BDO for at least a few years back during its release. I even had a life sub to the ru servers back then. But it just didn't grab me strongly enough to pull away from L2. If I had played it for a few years, I'd at least have a broader understanding of different game designs, rather than just L2's.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Well, by now I've repeated it enough times that you know where it ends up.

I wish I had stayed with BDO for at least a few years back during its release. I even had a life sub to the ru servers back then. But it just didn't grab me strongly enough to pull away from L2. If I had played it for a few years, I'd at least have a broader understanding of different game designs, rather than just L2's.

It really would not have been even slightly worth it. BDO is useful ONLY as a sign of what not to do, and the tragedy of watching a few sapient devs/designers trying their ABSOLUTE HARDEST to fight the encroaching simplicity of Corporate and losing inch by inch.

Every other new update is a new heartbreak point for the sort of people who like L2/hang around here. Never put yourself through it, sometimes they break it faster than people can even understand.

VekoKrava

Nova_terra wrote: »

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Nova_terra wrote: »

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

I am attached to Vanilla WoW because of all MMOs that I played, econony was not even close as good as WoW in early days.

I am mainly speaking this to make things valuable. If you make 60 ores to drop fom one vein it will be less valuable then if it dropped one. It also creates many problems on decising prices at early stage. You will need to have a calculator to do prices properly,but if you had these simple drops you would put prices easily out from your head.

I hope they make economy similar to vanilla, not gameplay. Economy means only numbers (gold) not to copy professions. I did give some examples on how to make more varieties to farm or make things more valuable and it is true if something is hsrder to get/less to get, economy will have more reasonable numbers, more familiar to IRL. 1g per ore feels much more realistic then 250g per ore, I hope you understand me now.

Don't worry I am quite aware you mean economy only, but I don't think Ashes and the Intrepid team stand to gain anything from copying a 20 year dated formula. I realize for it's time it was the "best" we had in terms of economy but it was a (This is grossly my biased opinion as I am aware many people liked it) mildly bad minigame. I don't think units per drop has much meaning because it boils down to needing X amount of a resource and the numbers the system uses will be smaller but that doesn't change that you are getting X% of what you need per vein.

It has a big impact on how many gold something will cost, simply because of simllicity. New World is newer game and its economy failed so much that you dont need to farm gold in order to sustain yourself. Many games newer then wow have exactly the same problem. Wow is a masterpiece in every aspect.

You are taking a more complex set of problems New World had and boiling it down to "My Memory of Vanilla WoW is better than an experience I had recently". Vanilla WoW had a ton of problems, but again this game will not be WoW and they have stated as such. The closer they push to be like WoW the more people will leave and go play WoW. It's how it's stayed relevant for 20 years.

I really cannot say it better then I did. Because of simplicity people wontbe using calculator which means it will be much stable economy.

I did not play Vanilla during original days, I played retail only until Vanilla classic in 2019, then I saw significant change in economy and the way of playing in open world - to sustain your character. This was eye opening for me because until then I did not know for better.

Then I quit WoW in 2021 and started new mmos because I could not stand retail wow. Played new mmos and did not like them only because of economy. Everything feels worthless. I already said statement for NW, but gw2 also sucks so much. You can level profession with 30g only, which is 1h of gameplay. In vanilla, it would take around 10 hours of farming to level the most expensive profession by buying mats.

Vanilla was masterpiece because it was simple and casual friendly yet enough hard core.

Arya_Yeshe

Good caravan system helps a lot, at the momment it seems it needs an overhaul

Czeris

NiKr wrote: »

The quantity doesn't matter at all, as long as any and all material sinks account for said quantity. Crafting recipes could take 5 items, when you could only gather 1 item per resource instance, or those recipes could use 200 items if you collected 40 per instance.

It's not about how much you gather, it's about how the devs balance that amount against all the things that are related to it. And it's obvious as fuck that NW's devs had no clue what they were doing, even before all the exploits and abuses of their systems.

A real economy needs to balance inflows of resources with outflows. Even Eve Online had problems with this, and that was a full loot, item destruction game. Titans, which were meant to be the ultimate ship, taking months to build, ended up proliferating in the thousands since they just weren't getting destroyed that much.

Like most of what sucked about New World, their economy was based on it being a full loot survival game, that they tried to change into a themepark at the last minute. If they had made all the changes they did in the first year of release, the game would have been successful.

Depraved

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

I am attached to Vanilla WoW because of all MMOs that I played, econony was not even close as good as WoW in early days.

I am mainly speaking this to make things valuable. If you make 60 ores to drop fom one vein it will be less valuable then if it dropped one. It also creates many problems on decising prices at early stage. You will need to have a calculator to do prices properly,but if you had these simple drops you would put prices easily out from your head.

I hope they make economy similar to vanilla, not gameplay. Economy means only numbers (gold) not to copy professions. I did give some examples on how to make more varieties to farm or make things more valuable and it is true if something is hsrder to get/less to get, economy will have more reasonable numbers, more familiar to IRL. 1g per ore feels much more realistic then 250g per ore, I hope you understand me now.

solution A : vein drops 1 ore > you need 10 ores to craft = you need to farm 10 veins. 10 veins worth of ores cost 10 gold

solution B: vein drops 10 ores > you need 100 ores to craft = you need to farm 10 veins. 10 veins worth of ores cost 10 gold

solution C: vein drops 100 ores > you need 1000 ores to craft = you need to farm 10 veins. 10 veins worth of ores cost 10 gold

the problem isn't how many ores a vein drops .-.

Depraved

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Nova_terra wrote: »

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Nova_terra wrote: »

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

I am attached to Vanilla WoW because of all MMOs that I played, econony was not even close as good as WoW in early days.

I am mainly speaking this to make things valuable. If you make 60 ores to drop fom one vein it will be less valuable then if it dropped one. It also creates many problems on decising prices at early stage. You will need to have a calculator to do prices properly,but if you had these simple drops you would put prices easily out from your head.

I hope they make economy similar to vanilla, not gameplay. Economy means only numbers (gold) not to copy professions. I did give some examples on how to make more varieties to farm or make things more valuable and it is true if something is hsrder to get/less to get, economy will have more reasonable numbers, more familiar to IRL. 1g per ore feels much more realistic then 250g per ore, I hope you understand me now.

Don't worry I am quite aware you mean economy only, but I don't think Ashes and the Intrepid team stand to gain anything from copying a 20 year dated formula. I realize for it's time it was the "best" we had in terms of economy but it was a (This is grossly my biased opinion as I am aware many people liked it) mildly bad minigame. I don't think units per drop has much meaning because it boils down to needing X amount of a resource and the numbers the system uses will be smaller but that doesn't change that you are getting X% of what you need per vein.

It has a big impact on how many gold something will cost, simply because of simllicity. New World is newer game and its economy failed so much that you dont need to farm gold in order to sustain yourself. Many games newer then wow have exactly the same problem. Wow is a masterpiece in every aspect.

You are taking a more complex set of problems New World had and boiling it down to "My Memory of Vanilla WoW is better than an experience I had recently". Vanilla WoW had a ton of problems, but again this game will not be WoW and they have stated as such. The closer they push to be like WoW the more people will leave and go play WoW. It's how it's stayed relevant for 20 years.

I really cannot say it better then I did. Because of simplicity people wontbe using calculator which means it will be much stable economy.

I did not play Vanilla during original days, I played retail only until Vanilla classic in 2019, then I saw significant change in economy and the way of playing in open world - to sustain your character. This was eye opening for me because until then I did not know for better.

Then I quit WoW in 2021 and started new mmos because I could not stand retail wow. Played new mmos and did not like them only because of economy. Everything feels worthless. I already said statement for NW, but gw2 also sucks so much. You can level profession with 30g only, which is 1h of gameplay. In vanilla, it would take around 10 hours of farming to level the most expensive profession by buying mats.

Vanilla was masterpiece because it was simple and casual friendly yet enough hard core.

when you say you played new MMOs, do you mean new to you or that came out new in 2021-2022?
if you are referring new to you...those games, such as gw2, have been out for years, if not a decade. everybody has everything and no one wanna bu yanything, ofc gold feels pointless. the way you can stop that is by making things useful every x amount of times so people will have to keep farming and buying..

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