Class/Weapon combination expectations

I have been thinking recently about what class I will want to play with which race and with which weapon. Based on the fact that you will be able to wear any armor and equip any weapon (with some restrictions based on ranged/melee and class abilities requiring a bow like Ranger PowerShot). What is your current expectations for viability of weapons and classes such as a two handed sword wielding Mage (making a sort of battle mage hybrid with the augment class being tank/fighter for example) or a Pike/Halberd wielding Cleric/X. Do you expect these to be miles worse than the "classic choices" of mage with a staff etc.

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Ludullu

I'd expect augments to allow us use those combos and much more.

Nova_terra

NiKr wrote: »

I'd expect augments to allow us use those combos and much more.

I am curious to see to what efficacy, this is obviously what betas and alphas are for from a balancing standpoint but I as a player would struggle to run some of these combos I find much more interesting (cleric/X with melee weapon like pike/greatsword) if it's literally just 25% worse than using a tome/staff or otherwise.

I think it's a weird place to be where they will bring their own strengths and synergies, but might just not compete or be viable in small scale pvp for example.

Azherae

Nova_terra wrote: »

I have been thinking recently about what class I will want to play with which race and with which weapon. Based on the fact that you will be able to wear any armor and equip any weapon (with some restrictions based on ranged/melee and class abilities requiring a bow like Ranger PowerShot). What is your current expectations for viability of weapons and classes such as a two handed sword wielding Mage (making a sort of battle mage hybrid with the augment class being tank/fighter for example) or a Pike/Halberd wielding Cleric/X. Do you expect these to be miles worse than the "classic choices" of mage with a staff etc.

I expect them to be worse than the standard thing that will get you easy pickup groups... at doing the things basic pickup groups want.

In MMOs that involve a lot of group play, the thing that tends to become 'Meta' is the thing that the majority of the population understands and can rely on, usually due to simplicity.

If you find a random group 'looking for Cleric' and they DON'T mean 'look just keep the tank alive and maybe cleanse some debuffs and we're good, thanks', they would probably have stuck with whoever they met that did BETTER at that.

Because it would be unrealistic to expect the others who are just 'trying to fit in and get groups' to have a specialized build ready.

If we are LUCKY, the community will come up with some simple terms to distinguish a GreatSword Wielding Mage/Fighter from a Wand Wielding Mage/Fighter because those are PROBABLY going to play very differently.

But I wouldn't personally expect the first to be worse. It's just that when you get invited, 'most people' probably aren't going to be expecting you to break out the GreatSword and start cleaving, and since you probably had to give up SOMETHING from the other option in order to do that, you might have some trouble then.

Performance wise, I wouldn't expect them to be worse, though, I'd be pretty disappointed if they couldn't make most of them work.

Depraved

Nova_terra wrote: »

I have been thinking recently about what class I will want to play with which race and with which weapon. Based on the fact that you will be able to wear any armor and equip any weapon (with some restrictions based on ranged/melee and class abilities requiring a bow like Ranger PowerShot). What is your current expectations for viability of weapons and classes such as a two handed sword wielding Mage (making a sort of battle mage hybrid with the augment class being tank/fighter for example) or a Pike/Halberd wielding Cleric/X. Do you expect these to be miles worse than the "classic choices" of mage with a staff etc.

there will always be things that are stronger. we don't know yet if having those combinations will be better than "classic choices" or not, however, steven said that if you pick the same 2nd archetype as your main, you are just making your class stronger in that role, rather than trying to move yourself a little to fulfill another role (hybridize). so I expect those combinations (or lack of) will be stronger if your goal is to play your role and just your role and don't try to hybridize.

for example, a cleric/warrior will be able to do melee physical damage and heal, but it wont heal as much as a cleric/cleric or do as much damage as a warrior/warrior. so, if your goal is to just heal, then you would want to go cleric/cleric, and if you only want to do damage, then go warrior/warrior. but if your goal is to heal and do damage, a cleric/warrior would be better.

Sengarden

A bigger issue with finding groups, as per @Azherae ’s point, is determining the physical position someone’s playing in. So when we go looking for a PuG, we should be looking for a ranged dps, specifically. That opens many more doors than it closes.

The problem with getting a battlemage instead of a sorcerer when you ask for a mage is that you might’ve expected a ranged dps and ended up with a melee dps. Having a proper formation of forces is key in a lot of PvE and PvP encounters. Having a frontline, back line, people who can flank, etc.

Being able to ask for a ranged dps mage with a specialization in fire magic would be great, but it also greatly limits the pool of players you have to draw from. So I think we’re going to have to be more flexible with what archetype we ask for, and more focused on finding skilled players in specific combat roles that can span multiple archetypes with the introduction of augments.

As for a combo I’d like to see - I always liked the concept of enhancement shaman in WoW. Melee weapon user who uses magic to empower / quicken their attacks with a couple instant cast spells to weave between melee attacks. Some people’s ideas of battlemages keep the melee and magic separate, but I think it’s interesting to try and mash them together. Although this usually requires the battlemage to have less armor than warriors, like chain or leather, since their attacks hit harder and deal magic damage in addition to melee.

Solvryn

Nova_terra wrote: »

I have been thinking recently about what class I will want to play with which race and with which weapon. Based on the fact that you will be able to wear any armor and equip any weapon (with some restrictions based on ranged/melee and class abilities requiring a bow like Ranger PowerShot). What is your current expectations for viability of weapons and classes such as a two handed sword wielding Mage (making a sort of battle mage hybrid with the augment class being tank/fighter for example) or a Pike/Halberd wielding Cleric/X. Do you expect these to be miles worse than the "classic choices" of mage with a staff etc.

Its not really any class any weapon if you're forced to use a weapon for an ability, it's more like any weapon can be equipped, not all weapons have equal usefulness and usage.

If they're going to stick to that route I rather they just weapon lock the classes.

Iskiab

I think it'll all come down to how stats work. If you're a cleric and the weapon is just a stat stick then the weapon won't really matter. I don't think there are weapon abilities, so really what you can use will depend on if there will be the weapon you want with the stats you want.

In ESO I played a nightblade healer, I like the aesthetic of a cleric/rogue so hopefully a cleric with daggers will work.

If daggers with healer stats drops it would make some people grumpy, someone mentioned augments or a way to change the stats on weapons? Hopefully they implement something like that.

Azherae

Iskiab wrote: »

I think it'll all come down to how stats work. If you're a cleric and the weapon is just a stat stick then the weapon won't really matter. I don't think there are weapon abilities, so really what you can use will depend on if there will be the weapon you want with the stats you want.

In ESO I played a nightblade healer, I like the aesthetic of a cleric/rogue so hopefully a cleric with daggers will work.

Daggers with healer stats will make some people grumpy, someone mentioned augments or a way to change the stats on weapons? Hopefully they implement something like that.

I'm really hoping for a good 'Stat Slot' style design, otherwise I would figure that a lot of it is going to be very disappointing.

But perhaps Intrepid will come up with something far beyond even that, which no one has thought of before.

Arya_Yeshe

Cool off hand weapons with their own skills:

Net: aplplies slow on movement and attack
Whip: pulls one target, damage all along the way
One hand crossbow: small damage, fast reload
Kusarigama: limits the distance the target can get away from you, the target could slowly drag you tough and you could drag the target too if you go in the other direction... like a tug of war
Spiked shield: for bashing and defense
Lantern: cold resist and also applies fire damage

Nova_terra

Azherae wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I think it'll all come down to how stats work. If you're a cleric and the weapon is just a stat stick then the weapon won't really matter. I don't think there are weapon abilities, so really what you can use will depend on if there will be the weapon you want with the stats you want.

In ESO I played a nightblade healer, I like the aesthetic of a cleric/rogue so hopefully a cleric with daggers will work.

Daggers with healer stats will make some people grumpy, someone mentioned augments or a way to change the stats on weapons? Hopefully they implement something like that.

I'm really hoping for a good 'Stat Slot' style design, otherwise I would figure that a lot of it is going to be very disappointing.

But perhaps Intrepid will come up with something far beyond even that, which no one has thought of before.

I would love to see how they decide to do it, but I have to agree that I think if they don't opt for a stat slot design or a fresh design that rewards experimentation you will find 90% of possible options will just boil down to "I am making an active choice to play at a disadvantage based on running weapons that just operate worse in X or Y functions because I like this. I know there are weapon skills that might adjust how a cleric/fighter works compared to a cleric/cleric or whatever but good system design would look at me choosing a pike weapon for my Cleric/fighter and have a wide swath of skills that lets me experiment and is balanced in a way that gives me something different than say a cleric/cleric with a tome or whatever.

Depraved

weapons will not have active skills, they will have passives and triggers.

i suppose the passives and triggers will change depending on your class, to make each weapon useable by each class, depending on your build

Optics2134

I think in A2 they are going to try to nail down some core mechanics of combat. Like, active block, resource pools stam,magic,energy ect... I think once they make those decisions we will start to see how builds and play styles will develope. I mean one of the most recent topics is auto attacks yes or no?

I myself have some really high hopes for the different builds and playstyles that people will create. I have taken up reading peoples reactions an opinions on AOC as a hobby lately. And across the board it seems the primary "want" is a combat system that feels good to play and that isnt super meta min max mentality. The play this build or no one will group with you crap that most games have. I'm sure AoC sees these too and have several "versions or styles" they will give us to test.

PlasticLemons

I'd love to be able to efficiently use a spear and perhaps a shield as a cleric.

It will all boil down to how IS decides to build the skill trees. If they are random and you can chose what traits your weapon will have during crafting, then any weapon could be good for you to use.

If the weapons have skill trees that are locked into certain playstyles, like shield passives will always either be for tanks or melee dps, then a cleric wouldn't want to ever use them (unless they are roleplaying somewhere like a cool looking dweeb)

We won't know until they give us more information about how weapon skill trees work.

lunarsky

As someone who is strongly considering the Templar (Cleric/Fighter) as my main class, I certainly hope I can use different weapon combinations other than say a staff or mace/shield. My weapon choice shouldn't have any real effect on my ability to heal the group. When considering itemization, skills specs, and augments there shouldn't be a non-viable combination. Some of the cleric spells they showed on the cleric update basically required melee range for example as they're conal.

My ideal Templar would be dual 1h swords or greatsword/polearm (whichever looks cooler). I'd have the weapon crafted to have favorable cleric stats and enchanted as well and i'd be right in the thick of it with my melees that will likely be the ones getting hit more and require more healing. I can focus on those close range spells and get them topped up and survive hits myself with defensive abilities and plate armor. It would be a nice change of pace from sitting in the back and playing whack a-mole with health bars like I have been doing for 20 years as a healer main.

I suppose if that didn't work I could do it on as a Highsword (Fighter/Cleric) to a far lesser extent as they're not healers at that point and just main a Shaman (Cleric/Summoner) or Scryer (Cleric/Bard). Again that would be sad though as it would basically make any magic/melee build very underwhelming and not really viable.

George_Black

lunarsky wrote: »

As someone who is strongly considering the Templar (Cleric/Fighter) as my main class, I certainly hope I can use different weapon combinations other than say a staff or mace/shield. My weapon choice shouldn't have any real effect on my ability to heal the group. When considering itemization, skills specs, and augments there shouldn't be a non-viable combination. Some of the cleric spells they showed on the cleric update basically required melee range for example as they're conal.

My ideal Templar would be dual 1h swords or greatsword/polearm (whichever looks cooler). I'd have the weapon crafted to have favorable cleric stats and enchanted as well and i'd be right in the thick of it with my melees that will likely be the ones getting hit more and require more healing. I can focus on those close range spells and get them topped up and survive hits myself with defensive abilities and plate armor. It would be a nice change of pace from sitting in the back and playing whack a-mole with health bars like I have been doing for 20 years as a healer main.

I suppose if that didn't work I could do it on as a Highsword (Fighter/Cleric) to a far lesser extent as they're not healers at that point and just main a Shaman (Cleric/Summoner) or Scryer (Cleric/Bard). Again that would be sad though as it would basically make any magic/melee build very underwhelming and not really viable.

I disagree with this.

Weapons are a crucial identity to classes, not accessories for looks.
The templar/paladin archetype is that of the religious warrior. What does that mean? Smite the evil, use divinity as a source of damage and cure. You see dual swords as an accessory for looks, but you dont take a step back to consider the implications.
If you are free to use dual swords with all your templar abilities then this must come at the cost of animation quality.

With weapons being treated as cosmetics/passive boosts, and since AoC doesnt have active weapon abilities, the animations must be loosely clipped on the character, ignoring the weapon functions/motions. Which is insane. Weapons are the embodiment of action for attacks (not spells).

A templar/paladin archetype should have 2 handed hammers, two handed swords, 1h weapon/shield, and spears.

So what do you want more? The "holyness" and "righteousness" that comes with religious orders, or do you want twin swords?

If you want twin swords then you should look for a warrior, rogue and maybe knight archetype.
Twin swords should have appropriate combat animations, which they reside within the above mentioned archetypes.

But then again, AoC is going with the "free to play as you want" at the cost of class/weapon identity and animation detail/quality.
So, you and everyone that wants to hear "yes" to their every playstyle option (at the expense of quality) will get what you are asking for.

Depraved

lunarsky wrote: »

As someone who is strongly considering the Templar (Cleric/Fighter) as my main class, I certainly hope I can use different weapon combinations other than say a staff or mace/shield. My weapon choice shouldn't have any real effect on my ability to heal the group. When considering itemization, skills specs, and augments there shouldn't be a non-viable combination. Some of the cleric spells they showed on the cleric update basically required melee range for example as they're conal.

My ideal Templar would be dual 1h swords or greatsword/polearm (whichever looks cooler). I'd have the weapon crafted to have favorable cleric stats and enchanted as well and i'd be right in the thick of it with my melees that will likely be the ones getting hit more and require more healing. I can focus on those close range spells and get them topped up and survive hits myself with defensive abilities and plate armor. It would be a nice change of pace from sitting in the back and playing whack a-mole with health bars like I have been doing for 20 years as a healer main.

I suppose if that didn't work I could do it on as a Highsword (Fighter/Cleric) to a far lesser extent as they're not healers at that point and just main a Shaman (Cleric/Summoner) or Scryer (Cleric/Bard). Again that would be sad though as it would basically make any magic/melee build very underwhelming and not really viable.

i kind of like that i can use any weapon...but weapons have stats. so wi will probably be limited to using weapons with high magic attacks and casting speed for the best heals of course.

i wanna heal with a scythe for whatever reason T_T

lunarsky

Depraved wrote: »

lunarsky wrote: »

As someone who is strongly considering the Templar (Cleric/Fighter) as my main class, I certainly hope I can use different weapon combinations other than say a staff or mace/shield. My weapon choice shouldn't have any real effect on my ability to heal the group. When considering itemization, skills specs, and augments there shouldn't be a non-viable combination. Some of the cleric spells they showed on the cleric update basically required melee range for example as they're conal.

My ideal Templar would be dual 1h swords or greatsword/polearm (whichever looks cooler). I'd have the weapon crafted to have favorable cleric stats and enchanted as well and i'd be right in the thick of it with my melees that will likely be the ones getting hit more and require more healing. I can focus on those close range spells and get them topped up and survive hits myself with defensive abilities and plate armor. It would be a nice change of pace from sitting in the back and playing whack a-mole with health bars like I have been doing for 20 years as a healer main.

I suppose if that didn't work I could do it on as a Highsword (Fighter/Cleric) to a far lesser extent as they're not healers at that point and just main a Shaman (Cleric/Summoner) or Scryer (Cleric/Bard). Again that would be sad though as it would basically make any magic/melee build very underwhelming and not really viable.

i kind of like that i can use any weapon...but weapons have stats. so wi will probably be limited to using weapons with high magic attacks and casting speed for the best heals of course.

i wanna heal with a scythe for whatever reason T_T

and you should be able to because you can craft weapons and determine stats based on that. Steven has already said any class can use any weapon or armor. They showed a mage using a greatsword in one of the live letters a couple months back.

Nova_terra

lunarsky wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

lunarsky wrote: »

As someone who is strongly considering the Templar (Cleric/Fighter) as my main class, I certainly hope I can use different weapon combinations other than say a staff or mace/shield. My weapon choice shouldn't have any real effect on my ability to heal the group. When considering itemization, skills specs, and augments there shouldn't be a non-viable combination. Some of the cleric spells they showed on the cleric update basically required melee range for example as they're conal.

My ideal Templar would be dual 1h swords or greatsword/polearm (whichever looks cooler). I'd have the weapon crafted to have favorable cleric stats and enchanted as well and i'd be right in the thick of it with my melees that will likely be the ones getting hit more and require more healing. I can focus on those close range spells and get them topped up and survive hits myself with defensive abilities and plate armor. It would be a nice change of pace from sitting in the back and playing whack a-mole with health bars like I have been doing for 20 years as a healer main.

I suppose if that didn't work I could do it on as a Highsword (Fighter/Cleric) to a far lesser extent as they're not healers at that point and just main a Shaman (Cleric/Summoner) or Scryer (Cleric/Bard). Again that would be sad though as it would basically make any magic/melee build very underwhelming and not really viable.

i kind of like that i can use any weapon...but weapons have stats. so wi will probably be limited to using weapons with high magic attacks and casting speed for the best heals of course.

i wanna heal with a scythe for whatever reason T_T

and you should be able to because you can craft weapons and determine stats based on that. Steven has already said any class can use any weapon or armor. They showed a mage using a greatsword in one of the live letters a couple months back.

I think the thing people are getting hung up on and I am as well, is yeah they had a mage using a greatsword but is that actually going to work like people think or were led to believe in the sandbox they provided or will it just be worse to the Nth degree once go live happens.

I've been loving the idea of running a martial cleric with hybrid healing/spell damage wielding a spear/pike/halberd of some sort but it's entirely possible that the weapon systems/skills just don't work for that or if they don't look at crafting/mats how they are actually planning on giving out loot etc, can cause issues. If I am never able to find a pike with cleric stats or useable stats then here I am just using whatever is best because I am not going to willingly kneecap myself unless the differences are at worst "not too bad" or "workable" but if my healing output/damage output is like 50% worse it's just not feasible.

I have to believe A2 will provide some clarity, but on the forums there has been a ton of talk about how loot should work and I agree with what I believe is the majority that most loot should be "components" that help us craft what we are looking to make so we can have a diverse ecosystem of crafters and also class/weapon combos. If these things just drop "fighter stated sword" or "tank stated shield" these niche combos will never get off the ground. But the live stream you are referencing did give me hope that they will get there and let us lean into these cool niche spaces.

lunarsky

George_Black wrote: »

lunarsky wrote: »

As someone who is strongly considering the Templar (Cleric/Fighter) as my main class, I certainly hope I can use different weapon combinations other than say a staff or mace/shield. My weapon choice shouldn't have any real effect on my ability to heal the group. When considering itemization, skills specs, and augments there shouldn't be a non-viable combination. Some of the cleric spells they showed on the cleric update basically required melee range for example as they're conal.

My ideal Templar would be dual 1h swords or greatsword/polearm (whichever looks cooler). I'd have the weapon crafted to have favorable cleric stats and enchanted as well and i'd be right in the thick of it with my melees that will likely be the ones getting hit more and require more healing. I can focus on those close range spells and get them topped up and survive hits myself with defensive abilities and plate armor. It would be a nice change of pace from sitting in the back and playing whack a-mole with health bars like I have been doing for 20 years as a healer main.

I suppose if that didn't work I could do it on as a Highsword (Fighter/Cleric) to a far lesser extent as they're not healers at that point and just main a Shaman (Cleric/Summoner) or Scryer (Cleric/Bard). Again that would be sad though as it would basically make any magic/melee build very underwhelming and not really viable.

I disagree with this.

Weapons are a crucial identity to classes, not accessories for looks.
The templar/paladin archetype is that of the religious warrior. What does that mean? Smite the evil, use divinity as a source of damage and cure. You see dual swords as an accessory for looks, but you dont take a step back to consider the implications.
If you are free to use dual swords with all your templar abilities then this must come at the cost of animation quality.

With weapons being treated as cosmetics/passive boosts, and since AoC doesnt have active weapon abilities, the animations must be loosely clipped on the character, ignoring the weapon functions/motions. Which is insane. Weapons are the embodiment of action for attacks (not spells).

A templar/paladin archetype should have 2 handed hammers, two handed swords, 1h weapon/shield, and spears.

So what do you want more? The "holyness" and "righteousness" that comes with religious orders, or do you want twin swords?

If you want twin swords then you should look for a warrior, rogue and maybe knight archetype.
Twin swords should have appropriate combat animations, which they reside within the above mentioned archetypes.

But then again, AoC is going with the "free to play as you want" at the cost of class/weapon identity and animation detail/quality.
So, you and everyone that wants to hear "yes" to their every playstyle option (at the expense of quality) will get what you are asking for.

Weapons aren't a crucial identity to classes in AoC though. Steven has already confirmed every class can use any weapon or armor. Why can't I smite evil with holy damage embued swords or axes? Why must I be limited to a shield and mace? That's boring. Every Templar will look the same if that's the case and it limits player agency.

Why does it have you affect animations negatively? We have no idea what all the skills will be at this point. We don't know if Cleric will or won't have melee skills or how the fighter subclass will augment them. It's too early to draw any conclusions like that. We know there will be dual-wielding animations. We've seen them in live letters and can safely assume Rogues will primarily dual-wield. Have some faith in the animation team.

"So what do you want more? The 'holiness' and 'righteousness' that comes with religious orders, or do you want twin swords?"

I can have both! That's the joy of a game that doesn't lock you into predetermined cookie-cutter builds. I can still make a holy warrior that smites evil wielding two swords vs a great sword. There's no harm done; it's just a different aesthetic than some people may be used to but there's no rule against it. I can make a dual-wielding Paladin in Baldur's Gate 3 for example. If I choose to go Knight or Rogue I'm no longer a primary healer which is my preferred role in most MMOs so it defeats the purpose though I could create a similar external look.

If you want to stick with more traditional imagery of certain classes that's perfectly fine. My summoner will be more along those lines (cloth armor/staff) but if the idea is 64 classes with a lot of hybrid options it would be a mistake by Intrepid to lock everyone into certain looks. It also diminishes the usefulness of the crafting system and enchanting systems. If they want maximum customization opening up the equipment piece of the game is the best way to weave all of those systems together.

I just want the skeletons in the mausoleum to see me coming, hear me unsheath two swords, see the yellow/white glow on the weapons, and know true death is upon them.

I do love greatswords and polearms too though so I may have both. I just tend to dislike slower attacking weapons even though they do more damage.

George_Black

"I can have both" sums up why we have problems in the world.

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