Lack of focus in this livestream

I am not quite sure how to feel about this livestream. There were some key things that were intended to be showed off but weren't really. We barely saw the use of the 2 new melee weapons (you have to find it in a fairly long video), I guess it's not a big part of cleric gameplay(?). Blocking occurred literally once. Constellations were not explained in the slightest... like actually though. The cleric skills weren't explained too much. The synergy and stun mechanic was explained well although repeatedly lol. There was also nice information on conviction (the class specific resource for clerics) which was exciting to learn about. It was a 40 minute video...

It felt like more of a livestream intended for someone to see how the game plays and show off visuals instead of communicating and showcasing some specific things. It could have been much shorter and focused. This is the first video I've seen that didn't feel focused and that Steven+devs were so concerned with 'playing' that they didn't even showcase the key points. You saw nice environments and many many fights with 2-3 mob types but I mean, you could have had just a handful of packs to fight and called it a day. I much prefer the god power streams where the focus is on communication and showcasing new developments than general gameplay. Like if you want to showcase mace and staff combat: zoom in and move the camera around, turn on god mode so you don't die and just hit the mobs for a minute or two.

I don't know, maybe I'm alone on this.

Edit: to clarify, I am happy if people enjoyed the stream. I having nothing but compliments for Steven and the dev team and this is literally the first dev update I've had any of these issues with, this is just meant to be constructive feedback. That being said, liking the video because it showed the 'feeling of gameplay', as valid as it is, does not negate how little information was provided. You can simultaneously like seeing the feeling of gameplay and dislike the lack of information on key things mentioned during the stream, those two things are not mutually exclusive. In a 40 minute video, both could easily be accomplished.

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novercalis

10 minutes looking into the sky for 1 constellation and a pointless meme. I was expecting at the end, he was gonna showcase the LEASH mechanics but left more questions then answer

like what needed to be polished that caused the delay?

Azherae

neuroguy wrote: »

I am not quite sure how to feel about this livestream. There were some key things that were intended to be showed off but weren't really. We barely saw the use of the 2 new melee weapons (you have to find it in a fairly long video), I guess it's not a big part of cleric gameplay(?). Blocking occurred literally once. Constellations were not explained in the slightest... like actually though. The cleric skills weren't explained too much. The synergy and stun mechanic was explained well although repeatedly lol. There was also nice information on conviction (the class specific resource for clerics) which was exciting to learn about. It was a 40 minute video...

It felt like more of a livestream intended for someone to see how the game plays and show off visuals instead of communicating and showcasing some specific things. It could have been much shorter and focused. This is the first video I've seen that didn't feel focused and that Steven+devs were so concerned with 'playing' that they didn't even showcase the key points. You saw nice environments and many many fights with 2-3 mob types but I mean, you could have had just a handful of packs to fight and called it a day. I much prefer the god power streams where the focus is on communication and showcasing new developments than general gameplay. Like if you want to showcase mace and staff combat: zoom in and move the camera around, turn on god mode so you don't die and just hit the mobs for a minute or two.

I don't know, maybe I'm alone on this.

You're probably not ALONE but I disagree on literally every point.

I feel like I learned a lot, enjoyed it a lot, got a really good feel.

But I admit I also think of Steven's role as a really cool Dungeon Master that we are watching flesh out a system. When such a DM offers to 'let you sit in on a planning session' and calls it a 'Showcase', I'd expect to get EXACTLY what we got, especially at this stage in balance and development.

I feel like there was lots to give feedback on, though a lot of it was subtle, and it seamlessly combined all those things into one flow.

To me therefore the lack of 'focus' was a huge positive, bringing me back to the sort of content I enjoyed from their streams in years past where you get 'a little of everything' and 'a lot of the Dungeon Master explaining how things will work'.

If one wanted something else, then I would think it would be disappointing, yes, but I liked this so much better than the Ranger showcase that if I had to give feedback on the 'presentation style' of this sort of thing, I'd rate it five stars with a commendation and look forward to the next.

Taleof2Cities

Be thankful that Intrepid provides monthly development updates, @neuroguy.

Most flagship MMOs aren’t obliged to provide any community outreach until the game launches.

WHIT3ROS3

I enjoyed the stream and liked seeing multiple players on screen. I'm a little confused by the idea that some think the video should be "polished". The entire point of these streams is to see raw, rough, work-in-progress development and sneak peeks. Not polish. Polished presentations, showcases etc are what you would expect to start seeing leading up to the actual launch, post Alpha 2.

FallenPaladin

I apologize for this but I thought the livestream was awesome - especially the combat and the graphics, which literally blows everything else I've ever seen out of the water (I've seen alot).

Myosotys

neuroguy wrote: »

I am not quite sure how to feel about this livestream. There were some key things that were intended to be showed off but weren't really. We barely saw the use of the 2 new melee weapons (you have to find it in a fairly long video), I guess it's not a big part of cleric gameplay(?). Blocking occurred literally once. Constellations were not explained in the slightest... like actually though. The cleric skills weren't explained too much. The synergy and stun mechanic was explained well although repeatedly lol. There was also nice information on conviction (the class specific resource for clerics) which was exciting to learn about. It was a 40 minute video...

It felt like more of a livestream intended for someone to see how the game plays and show off visuals instead of communicating and showcasing some specific things. It could have been much shorter and focused. This is the first video I've seen that didn't feel focused and that Steven+devs were so concerned with 'playing' that they didn't even showcase the key points. You saw nice environments and many many fights with 2-3 mob types but I mean, you could have had just a handful of packs to fight and called it a day. I much prefer the god power streams where the focus is on communication and showcasing new developments than general gameplay. Like if you want to showcase mace and staff combat: zoom in and move the camera around, turn on god mode so you don't die and just hit the mobs for a minute or two.

I don't know, maybe I'm alone on this.

I am disapointed too... Very boring video where I learnt almost nothing. My conclusion is that the development phase is very very far from over and the Alpha 2 will certainly not be here before early 2024.

I'll come back in 6 months.

neuroguy

Azherae wrote: »

You're probably not ALONE but I disagree on literally every point.

I feel like I learned a lot, enjoyed it a lot, got a really good feel.

But I admit I also think of Steven's role as a really cool Dungeon Master that we are watching flesh out a system. When such a DM offers to 'let you sit in on a planning session' and calls it a 'Showcase', I'd expect to get EXACTLY what we got, especially at this stage in balance and development.

I feel like there was lots to give feedback on, though a lot of it was subtle, and it seamlessly combined all those things into one flow.

To me therefore the lack of 'focus' was a huge positive, bringing me back to the sort of content I enjoyed from their streams in years past where you get 'a little of everything' and 'a lot of the Dungeon Master explaining how things will work'.

If one wanted something else, then I would think it would be disappointing, yes, but I liked this so much better than the Ranger showcase that if I had to give feedback on the 'presentation style' of this sort of thing, I'd rate it five stars with a commendation and look forward to the next.

Interesting take! I'd love to hear what you understood about the constellation system then because I thought nothing was explained.

neuroguy

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Be thankful that Intrepid provides monthly development updates, @neuroguy.

Most flagship MMOs aren’t obliged to provide any community outreach until the game launches.

Right, but I feel like both their time and ours could have been more efficiently spent. Like if they are gonna do them, which I agree is awesome, might as well make it a bit more concise (like they did every other one) you know?

SupremeKnight wrote: »

I apologize for this but I thought the livestream was awesome - especially the combat and the graphics, which literally blows everything else I've ever seen out of the water (I've seen alot).

Haha why apologize? If you liked it I'm glad.

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

I enjoyed the stream and liked seeing multiple players on screen. I'm a little confused by the idea that some think the video should be "polished". The entire point of these streams is to see raw, rough, work-in-progress development and sneak peeks. Not polish. Polished presentations, showcases etc are what you would expect to start seeing leading up to the actual launch, post Alpha 2.

The polish is more about the script and explanation I think (or at least that's my point, can't speak for others). Like I'd love people to tell me what they learned, in the 40min video, about the constellation system because I felt like I learned jack.

Strevi

I loved those Steam bips.

Azherae

neuroguy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

You're probably not ALONE but I disagree on literally every point.

I feel like I learned a lot, enjoyed it a lot, got a really good feel.

But I admit I also think of Steven's role as a really cool Dungeon Master that we are watching flesh out a system. When such a DM offers to 'let you sit in on a planning session' and calls it a 'Showcase', I'd expect to get EXACTLY what we got, especially at this stage in balance and development.

I feel like there was lots to give feedback on, though a lot of it was subtle, and it seamlessly combined all those things into one flow.

To me therefore the lack of 'focus' was a huge positive, bringing me back to the sort of content I enjoyed from their streams in years past where you get 'a little of everything' and 'a lot of the Dungeon Master explaining how things will work'.

If one wanted something else, then I would think it would be disappointing, yes, but I liked this so much better than the Ranger showcase that if I had to give feedback on the 'presentation style' of this sort of thing, I'd rate it five stars with a commendation and look forward to the next.

Interesting take! I'd love to hear what you understood about the constellation system then because I thought nothing was explained.

You're correct there. Nothing very specific was explained (which was my expectation).

We were shown that there are constellations that you can see, and reinforced that there will be effects and/OR interactions with:

Vek, Religion, positioning in the world.

Since I have 'basic assumptions about what that means due to coming from games where it matters a bit', and 'not expecting Ashes to do less than those games', but obviously those are assumptions.

But if you were looking for stuff about the Constellation system, I agree. I was talking about the Cleric and combat parts. The Constellations felt more like a 'hey while we're here let's show a visual thing that we've discussed before'.

Garrtok

Have to agree. Why he was collecting wood in the beginning, what was the porpose of the stars?! When its pre recorded like that, why is it that unfocused?

tautau

I liked it very much, fun to watch and a lot to learn. Of course, if you watched it like a movie (for entertainment) then you learned a lot less than if you had watched it to analyze and deconstruct.

For example, if you watched his cursor to learn the effect of the different cleric skills, heals and actions...and if you watched the health bars of the different party members when he did different heals, then you could learn quite about the skills he was using. One could also learn mob behavior, aggro range, effective teamwork and a LOT of other things.

Great job.

maouw

What I got from this stream:
- combat was engaging enough that a dev gets absorbed in what's happening even when Steven is asking him a question (which is a good sign - like, this is bare bones 4 skills play test)
- a much better feel for how a party might play together
- the intention for combat pacing
- world design that has a level of depth (coz people can get lost, but the cemetery still feels organized)
- aggro ranges that actually matter

I'm really happy with the above, but I also agree a bit with OP on cleric specific stuff.
Cleric stream was teased, but we didn't get intentional explanations of skills like we did with the archer abilities (probably because some of them look quite similar to A1). I like hearing what the devs are thinking with each ability and different ways they think it could branch.

However, I'd rather not have polished videos - they can save that for announcement trailers and final launch.
Having raw videos is the most honest way for us to see where the game is at, and I wouldn't want that compromised.

Azherae

maouw wrote: »

What I got from this stream:
- combat was engaging enough that a dev gets absorbed in what's happening even when Steven is asking him a question (which is a good sign - like, this is bare bones 4 skills play test)
- a much better feel for how a party might play together
- the intention for combat pacing
- world design that has a level of depth (coz people can get lost, but the cemetery still feels organized)
- aggro ranges that actually matter

I'm really happy with the above, but I also agree a bit with OP on cleric specific stuff.
Cleric stream was teased, but we didn't get intentional explanations of skills like we did with the archer abilities (probably because some of them look quite similar to A1). I like hearing what the devs are thinking with each ability and different ways they think it could branch.

However, I'd rather not have polished videos - they can save that for announcement trailers and final launch.
Having raw videos is the most honest way for us to see where the game is at, and I wouldn't want that compromised.

I got exactly what I needed though.

As a Cleric, explanations of basic common Cleric skills would tell me nothing other than 'hey we're the same as most other games' or 'hey we'd like to take Healing in a new direction!'

Flow, rhythm, distance, watching HP bars, synergies, cooldowns, targeting...

I was able to get EVERY single one of these things in this video, with lots of comparison points, to a degree that I can say with relative confidence 'this is what healing will feel like in Ashes'.

I was actually WORRIED that we were going to get the useless equivalent of 'here are your skills, they heal this much, this one heals this way', instead of what we got. The numbers don't matter to me, the little things matter. I don't know if other Clerics experienced it the same way or not, but that was my takeaway and I am super thankful for the way it was presented.

"The things I watch for, as a Cleric, were all there, and showcased very well."

Individual things like 'explanations of skills' is so far down my priority list for 'showing me Cleric' that I was practically thankful that ZERO time was devoted to any skill explanations.

Liniker

I'd like to give my feedback on this, hopefully, @Vaknar can share this with the team if he finds it appropriate! So first of all, I really appreciate what intrepid does with the nonscripted and genuine gameplay, however, I think this time, the lack of focus and the gameplay got in the way of what it could have been a really nice showcase. I think it is time for intrepid to move on to a recorded gameplay with the devs playing and Steven reacting or voicing over it or something, or at least prepare a general script of what to talk about or showcase and stick to it

There 3 major points that I felt were harmful for the showcase, first, there was absolutely no mention of Hybrid combat and showcasing Both action and tab target mode using the healer, the same mistake that happened during the basic melee attack, and now they did it again, people look at this and immediately assume this is 100% a tab target game, and this goes against intrepid's intention of having the gameplay they share stand on its own feet.

Second, the constellations thing was very poorly explained and left even more questions than answers, and finally, active blocking was only mentioned once, with no details about it, same for everything else "cleric" related. I believe this month's showcase had so much potential that got wasted because of this...

and for me, the gameplay is also an issue, I get it, Steven isn't the best player, (even tho he is an amazing Creative Director

) but I think this is getting in the way of what the gameplay should look like.. I had to look real hard to see that some skills could be cast while running because he was standing still and clicking with the mouse, this sends an impression of a very static, mobile-like gameplay which is the opposite of the dynamic tactile gameplay intrepid is creating.

That's my two cents.

CoopTroop

I really liked the change of format for this livestream. It has been really awesome to see all these different features showcased and explained in the last few months, but it was really nice today to see a lot of the game put together. In showcases like the ranger and melee combat, we get a lot of detail but don't get a great feel for what those details will actually feel like in real gameplay. I got such a better feel for what the game will actually be like and I'm more hyped by this one than any others. I don't want the focused detailed showcases to stop, but its nice to change that pace every now and then and see all the features come together in real gameplay. Its starting to look like a full game now.

I have to agree that the constellations weren't explained at all. That part felt a little weird since that is literally what they were looking for the entire time and we don't even know what they do.

neuroguy

tautau wrote: »

I liked it very much, fun to watch and a lot to learn. Of course, if you watched it like a movie (for entertainment) then you learned a lot less than if you had watched it to analyze and deconstruct.

For example, if you watched his cursor to learn the effect of the different cleric skills, heals and actions...and if you watched the health bars of the different party members when he did different heals, then you could learn quite about the skills he was using. One could also learn mob behavior, aggro range, effective teamwork and a LOT of other things.

Great job.

I actually think the opposite, if you were there for a good time and just seeing how it plays, it was a nice stream. But if you came for information, you had to pause or go back and read, find time stamps in a 40min video of the single time they showed blocking etc. The information was not clearly presented or easily available. We've never had to hunt down or pause the right frame before, it's not really how most people would prefer to interact with a dev 'update' I think.

This was a cleric update, why are we supposed to pause the screen when the cursor is in the right place? He only mentioned once that conviction can change one spell from targeting 1 player to 2, presumably because he hit some threshold? Even the conviction system wasn't explained, it was just mentioned/introduced.

maouw wrote: »

What I got from this stream:
- combat was engaging enough that a dev gets absorbed in what's happening even when Steven is asking him a question (which is a good sign - like, this is bare bones 4 skills play test)
- a much better feel for how a party might play together
- the intention for combat pacing
- world design that has a level of depth (coz people can get lost, but the cemetery still feels organized)
- aggro ranges that actually matter

I absolutely agree. But aren't those seem secondary to the goal of the showcase and also some of the stuff that is more subject to change? For example, the feedback threads that popped up after were about cleric combat specifically and the day/night + constellation system. They did not ask for feedback on the stuff that seemed to be best showcased haha. And things like mob density and pacing between packs seemed scuffed with crazy re-spawn rates so that stuff is the most subject to change and the least important information to absorb since it will likely be changed (or maybe that's just my assumption?).

Azherae wrote: »

You're correct there. Nothing very specific was explained (which was my expectation).

We were shown that there are constellations that you can see, and reinforced that there will be effects and/OR interactions with:

Vek, Religion, positioning in the world.

Since I have 'basic assumptions about what that means due to coming from games where it matters a bit', and 'not expecting Ashes to do less than those games', but obviously those are assumptions.

But if you were looking for stuff about the Constellation system, I agree. I was talking about the Cleric and combat parts. The Constellations felt more like a 'hey while we're here let's show a visual thing that we've discussed before'.

I'm surprised that was your expectation, he went over each skill on the skill-bar when he did the ranger showcase. But no clear explanation on the cleric spells or how they interact with conviction. And I'm glad you extracted a lot but you have to agree that objectively, with most people having zero experience in games with a constellation systems (I still don't know what it is btw lol), leaving it for personal interpretation then asking for feedback on a forum thread is highly inefficient. Like read the replies in the thread, most people just think it looks/is cool, and I mean... what else can they say? It's hollow in terms of feedback, no?

I can understand and am happy if you personally enjoyed the stream, but you have to recognize that if your specialized and personal knowledge, or your detailed rewatch of the showcase with multiple pauses (@tautau ) is required to extract information, then it was not a clear or well presented video for the sake of communicating information (which is what a dev update is I thought).

neuroguy

CoopTroop wrote: »

I really liked the change of format for this livestream. It has been really awesome to see all these different features showcased and explained in the last few months, but it was really nice today to see a lot of the game put together. In showcases like the ranger and melee combat, we get a lot of detail but don't get a great feel for what those details will actually feel like in real gameplay. I got such a better feel for what the game will actually be like and I'm more hyped by this one than any others. I don't want the focused detailed showcases to stop, but its nice to change that pace every now and then and see all the features come together in real gameplay. Its starting to look like a full game now.

I have to agree that the constellations weren't explained at all. That part felt a little weird since that is literally what they were looking for the entire time and we don't even know what they do.

Absolutely agree, it did this extremely well. But it could have done both well within 40 minutes haha.

Azherae

neuroguy wrote: »

I can understand and am happy if you personally enjoyed the stream, but you have to recognize that if your specialized and personal knowledge, or your detailed rewatch of the showcase with multiple pauses (@tautau ) is required to extract information, then it was not a clear or well presented video for the sake of communicating information (which is what a dev update is I thought).

Why not?

It was a showcase for Cleric.

I would expect the target audience to be Clerics.

It was clearly communicated to me. I'm not really understanding entirely your point, though I don't really want to discredit it.

Would telling you the specifics of Cleric skills in the way that it was for Ranger skills tell you anything about Cleric?

It's the same as 'the Ranger stream actually being largely about placement, charge times, targeting, and longbows'. The skills were practically an afterthought, but the parts of them that were explained were critical to 'how Ranger plays' I think.

All I'm saying is that the information that I, as a Cleric, need, was communicated perfectly, and nearly any OTHER information that could have been communicated would not have been what I needed to know in any way. I would hope it isn't too 'selfish' to hope that a Cleric showcase should be tailored towards informing the Clerics.

neuroguy

@Liniker

Interesting points! I personally think that if they just make a bullet point list of things they are showing off and then devote some dedicated time to it, that would be perfect. I think an easy way to see if the recorded video is good and successful is to see if you can reasonably add timestamps to the youtube video. Like imagine if the youtube video had these time stamps:

0:00 introduction
X:XX mace and staff update
X:XX blocking update
X:XX cleric update (conviction!)
X:XX constellations + day/night cycle
X:XX party gameplay in new biome

Margaret structures the dev updates very well and again, this is an exception to the normally clear and concise dev updates, but the recorded videos can just be a bit more clearly structured.

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