Augments: stat requirements?

Augments are probably the most important aspect of the game that we still have little to no information about. We have been given a handful of examples about how 'impactful' they can be, but that is quite subjective based on your expectations and your understanding of a class vs archetype. Here I am just exploring a possible way to design the augment system which I believe will (1) allow for easier balance (2) more creative freedom in terms of design (3) support/promote class diversity and push against the formations of metas and (4) increase the variability of demanded items through crafting.

The idea is quite simple, what if alongside the lvl requirement, your augments required a stat threshold to be used? For example a highsword (fighter primary cleric secondary) will augment the fighter abilities with cleric themed augments. What if each augment required some int/will/wisdom (stats more aligned to the cleric) to be utilized? Some augments that heavily modify an ability may require more stats and thus require itemization choices that meet these requirements.

This would give developers the freedom to design minor and major augments by having some associated cost to the more impactful powerful ones in order to balance them. This way, augments would not need to be homogenous in their power nor precisely equally impactful. Currently, for any given skill, not only do all augments need to be similar in power for viability, but they can also only be as impactful as the least impactful one being implemented. But if you give them a cost, it can justify higher variability where a player can decide, through itemization, how heavily they lean into their secondary's role. So in the earlier example, the highsword could have low cost (require low int/will/wisdom stats) augments that do mostly self healing and other minor cleric things. But if the highsword decides to heavily lean into the cleric side, by wearing items with high int/will/wisdom which come at the cost of their primary's stats of strength/power, then they could gain access to augments that would allow them to heal others (not quite as good as a cleric of course, but you'd get closer to crossing trinity roles). Or this can be done in 'tiers' where multiple int/will/wisdom thresholds change the same augment to gain stronger cleric-like properties with the highest tier involving healing that can extend to others as an example. This would allow the augments to be more impactful and variable and to meet the needs & desires of the player and their fantasy for the class they play.

This would also create a demand for a lot more stat combinations on gear which opens up crafting. If crafters need to create items with strange stat combinations to satisfy different augments for all classes, it would require far more item variability to exist than if they only need to create items with classically synergistic stats like int+will+wisdom. This gives the crafting process a lot more cause for stat manipulation which, depending on the direction of the crafting system, can support a larger variety of resources or allow for more points during the crafting process (gathering to final item) that players can manipulate the final item's stats.

This is inspired by ARPG systems and I'd be curious what people think. Do you like the idea of all augments being ~equal in power? Or does it appeal to you more to have more vs less impactful augments balanced around some cost?

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Chicago

Its a super good idea and also makes twiking a thing, anarchy online had similar systems

Azherae

Opposed. Very.

Given the usual quality of our interactions from my side, I'll leave it there.

neuroguy

Azherae wrote: »

Opposed. Very.

Given the usual quality of our interactions from my side, I'll leave it there.

That's a shame, I'd love to hear why.

Depraved

neuroguy wrote: »

Augments are probably the most important aspect of the game that we still have little to no information about. We have been given a handful of examples about how 'impactful' they can be, but that is quite subjective based on your expectations and your understanding of a class vs archetype. Here I am just exploring a possible way to design the augment system which I believe will (1) allow for easier balance (2) more creative freedom in terms of design (3) support/promote class diversity and push against the formations of metas and (4) increase the variability of demanded items through crafting.

The idea is quite simple, what if alongside the lvl requirement, your augments required a stat threshold to be used? For example a highsword (fighter primary cleric secondary) will augment the fighter abilities with cleric themed augments. What if each augment required some int/will/wisdom (stats more aligned to the cleric) to be utilized? Some augments that heavily modify an ability may require more stats and thus require itemization choices that meet these requirements.

This would give developers the freedom to design minor and major augments by having some associated cost to the more impactful powerful ones in order to balance them. This way, augments would not need to be homogenous in their power nor precisely equally impactful. Currently, for any given skill, not only do all augments need to be similar in power for viability, but they can also only be as impactful as the least impactful one being implemented. But if you give them a cost, it can justify higher variability where a player can decide, through itemization, how heavily they lean into their secondary's role. So in the earlier example, the highsword could have low cost (require low int/will/wisdom stats) augments that do mostly self healing and other minor cleric things. But if the highsword decides to heavily lean into the cleric side, by wearing items with high int/will/wisdom which come at the cost of their primary's stats of strength/power, then they could gain access to augments that would allow them to heal others (not quite as good as a cleric of course, but you'd get closer to crossing trinity roles). Or this can be done in 'tiers' where multiple int/will/wisdom thresholds change the same augment to gain stronger cleric-like properties with the highest tier involving healing that can extend to others as an example. This would allow the augments to be more impactful and variable and to meet the needs & desires of the player and their fantasy for the class they play.

This would also create a demand for a lot more stat combinations on gear which opens up crafting. If crafters need to create items with strange stat combinations to satisfy different augments for all classes, it would require far more item variability to exist than if they only need to create items with classically synergistic stats like int+will+wisdom. This gives the crafting process a lot more cause for stat manipulation which, depending on the direction of the crafting system, can support a larger variety of resources or allow for more points during the crafting process (gathering to final item) that players can manipulate the final item's stats.

This is inspired by ARPG systems and I'd be curious what people think. Do you like the idea of all augments being ~equal in power? Or does it appeal to you more to have more vs less impactful augments balanced around some cost?

1- no, quite the opposite
2- yes
3- yes but whats wrong with metas? and you cant avoid them, unless you make everything the same.
4- yes

we will already have something like that iirc. the augment stream is coming soon, most likely this month. if not, no later than January I believe.

neuroguy

Depraved wrote: »

1- no, quite the opposite
2- yes
3- yes but whats wrong with metas? and you cant avoid them, unless you make everything the same.
4- yes

I'm too dumb to follow your numbering

haha do you mind specifying what they refer to?

Regarding metas, there is nothing wrong with them per se, people have different feelings/opinions towards them I reckon. That being said, I think that it can be universally agreed upon that solved or static metas are not good though. This is because it essentially makes the game smaller than it really is. If you have access to 100 spells for example but the meta is to use only 10 in your rotation, the other 90 might as well not exist (until the meta shifts).

Personally, I think the longer metas take to make players uniform, the more interesting the game is. The fact that no 2 players will have access to the same items (since there won't be a raid everyone can reliably complete with a known loot table) is great. I think if this was more impactful by influencing the needs of individual players (in terms of stats) to slot in the augments they desire it would be interesting for the reasons I outlined above.

Depraved wrote: »

we will already have something like that iirc. the augment stream is coming soon, most likely this month. if not, no later than January I believe.

I was not aware of any of this information, could you provide some evidence for this? I'd be very happy to see the augment system.

Dygz

Augments don't just come from Secondary Archetypes, but...
The primary purpose of augments from Secondary Archetypes is to allow the Primary Archetype to move closer to a different playstyle, so... having augments "restricted" by stats seems counter-productive.

But... I think I don't understand what you are contemplating because...
Already seems likely that Healing augments will be powerful with higher Wisdom and higher Magical stats on gear... as well as (Passive) Skill point allocation.
I don't understand what is meant by "at the cost of their primary's stats of strength/power".
It's the Primary Active Skills which need to be homogenous in power, since that's where the primary effects derive. That's how the Primary Archetypes are balanced - rather than the 64 classes.
Augments do not need to be homogenous - individuals will decide how much impact augments will have on their Active Skills.

I think you should learn how augments actually work - by testing them - before you try to fix something that probably is not broken.

Depraved

neuroguy wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

1- no, quite the opposite
2- yes
3- yes but whats wrong with metas? and you cant avoid them, unless you make everything the same.
4- yes

I'm too dumb to follow your numbering haha do you mind specifying what they refer to?

Regarding metas, there is nothing wrong with them per se, people have different feelings/opinions towards them I reckon. That being said, I think that it can be universally agreed upon that solved or static metas are not good though. This is because it essentially makes the game smaller than it really is. If you have access to 100 spells for example but the meta is to use only 10 in your rotation, the other 90 might as well not exist (until the meta shifts).

Personally, I think the longer metas take to make players uniform, the more interesting the game is. The fact that no 2 players will have access to the same items (since there won't be a raid everyone can reliably complete with a known loot table) is great. I think if this was more impactful by influencing the needs of individual players (in terms of stats) to slot in the augments they desire it would be interesting for the reasons I outlined above.

Depraved wrote: »

we will already have something like that iirc. the augment stream is coming soon, most likely this month. if not, no later than January I believe.

I was not aware of any of this information, could you provide some evidence for this? I'd be very happy to see the augment system.

my numbers are ur numbers T_T

neuroguy

Depraved wrote: »

my numbers are ur numbers T_T

Lmao oh yes, well I was confused because I proposed a few questions at the end hahaha.

Dygz wrote: »

Augments don't just come from Secondary Archetypes, but...
The primary purpose of augments from Secondary Archetypes is to allow the Primary Archetype to move closer to a different playstyle, so... having augments "restricted" by stats seems counter-productive.

But... I think I don't understand what you are contemplating because...
Already seems likely that Healing augments will be powerful with higher Wisdom and higher Magical stats on gear... as well as (Passive) Skill point allocation.
I don't understand what is meant by "at the cost of their primary's stats of strength/power".

So the 'cost of their primary's stats' that I refer to is the opportunity cost. I assume for crafted gear, putting for example +10 str on an item and putting +10 int on it may be mutually exclusive (not because they are incompatible, but because the item can only have so many stats). So the player chooses if it would benefit more from +10 str (perhaps their primary archetype's preferred stat) vs the +10 int (perhaps their secondary's preferred stat). Or if the crafting allows, they may ideally like a +8 str & +2 int on their item for their personal needs. So in the proposed system, the player decides if the int is important enough to meet certain augment thresholds vs the str which would benefit the primary archetype's role.

What I propose is meant to lean harder into allowing augments to bring primary archetypes closer to a different playstyle by providing a cost. So for example, an augment that allows the fighter's whirlwind to heal nearby allies for the damage done would be kinda broken. But if it required a lot of +int on the gear of the fighter primary which meant less +str and therefore less damage, it could conceivably be balanced right? I hope my thought process is clear here. If not, I can give some examples from ARPGs (namely PoE) where my idea is inspired by.

Dygz wrote: »

It's the Primary Active Skills which need to be homogenous in power, since that's where the primary effects derive. That's how the Primary Archetypes are balanced - rather than the 64 classes.
Augments do not need to be homogenous - individuals will decide how much impact augments will have on their Active Skills.

I think you should learn how augments actually work - by testing them - before you try to fix something that probably is not broken.

To be clear, I am not trying to 'fix' anything. I am woefully aware of the lack of knowledge we have on augments to presume a problem to then fix. I just have fun doing thought experiments and like the discussion around the ideas (my own or others). I still like to be critical and practical but you know

.

But regarding balance, I agree that the primary's abilities are the most crucial to balance. But if augments are to provide only horizontal power, they will be limited in how much they can impact the primary's play style (at least more limited than if they could also have some vertical power shift) and if they are meant to provide some vertical power, then they do need to be ~balanced so one is not clearly better than the other options.

So let's go back to the example of the fighters whirlwind. If, through spread sheets, or just public sentiment people believe that the elemental mage augment is the best mage augment for it in terms of dps then most fighter primary mage secondary players may choose that and the devs may need to nerf it or buff the other augments so they are more in line to each other. However, even if the elemental augment was the best for dps, if it had a higher stat cost than the other augments, it may see a lot less use because players need to acquire sufficient stats which may or may not be feasible or desirable for them (again, due to the opportunity cost that those mage stats would have vs the fighter stats) right? And instead of just nerfing it, the devs could increase it's cost to allow for the playstyle but require more investment to execute it.

Dygz

I think you are jumping to extremes. Augments mostly provide horizontal progression. They don't inherently provide vertical progression. For instance, some augments may change damage type of the Actve Skill they are applied to, rather than adding increased damage.
Elemental damage augments should not be designed to be "best for dps". People who choose Elemental augments should be hoping to play more like a Mage, who specializes in Elemental damage and/or plan to stack Elemental damage with the Elemental damage from the Mage/x or another x/Mage. Or they might want to stack Stuns with some other person in ther group/raid.

Doesn't need a higher stat "cost" and should not have a higher stat "cost".
Of course, we should expect higher stats to increase the effects of the associate augments.
Better stats should provide better results.

"Less use" sould be irrelevant. People should be choosing augments because it helps them play they way they individually like to play - not because a particular augment is more popular.

Nerfing augments will probably be more about balancing them against Active Skills, rather than trying to balance them against other augments. We can expect augments to be tweaked for augment balance, sure... but probably not nerfed. Because, again, the devs are balancing the Primary Archetypes. It's too unwieldly to be nerfing in order to balance the 64 classes and there's tons of other augments besides just the ones from the Archetype Schools.

What players think is best from spreadsheets should be irrelevant.
Especially since it's not about individual player prowess - it's really about how individual players synergize their abilities with the other players in their group/raid.
Ashes is not balanced for 1v1 combat.

neuroguy

Dygz wrote: »

I think you are jumping to extremes. Augments mostly provide horizontal progression. They don't inherently provide vertical progression. For instance, some augments may change damage type of the Actve Skill they are applied to, rather than adding increased damage.
Elemental damage augments should not be designed to be "best for dps". People who choose Elemental augments should be hoping to play more like a Mage, who specializes in Elemental damage and/or plan to stack Elemental damage with the Elemental damage from the Mage/x or another x/Mage. Or they might want to stack Stuns with some other person in ther group/raid.

Doesn't need a higher stat "cost" and should not have a higher stat "cost".
Of course, we should expect higher stats to increase the effects of the associate augments.
Better stats should provide better results.

"Less use" sould be irrelevant. People should be choosing augments because it helps them play they way they individually like to play - not because a particular augment is more popular.

Nerfing augments will probably be more about balancing them against Active Skills, rather than trying to balance them against other augments. We can expect augments to be tweaked for augment balance, sure... but probably not nerfed. Because, again, the devs are balancing the Primary Archetypes. It's too unwieldly to be nerfing in order to balance the 64 classes and there's tons of other augments besides just the ones from the Archetype Schools.

What players think is best from spreadsheets should be irrelevant.
Especially since it's not about individual player prowess - it's really about how individual players synergize their abilities with the other players in their group/raid.
Ashes is not balanced for 1v1 combat.

Yes I understand and agree that currently from what we know, augments are really more of a horizontal thing and not meant to increase power. My example of the elemental augment wasn't meant to be a flat damage increase (that would be a terribly boring augment), it was more about the horizontal impact resulting in more dps somehow. The details were not really important, more so that it would take hold as a meta.

I think your arguments of how people 'should' play don't hold much water to how people DO play. People (a sizable number of them) WILL want to optimize their character, this is a fundamental part of RPGs, we try to get stronger and better (through loot, lvls, or otherwise). My idea in a nutshell is that providing some cost (in my example: stat requirements & opportunity cost of your primary's stats) will justify making more interesting/impactful/powerful, horizontal AND vertical, augments that can push characters much more towards different playstyles than otherwise. If any class that chose a cleric secondary could heal other players, it would be silly. But if through heavy investment, any class with a cleric secondary could indeed heal to some degree, it would open up that door which was previously closed. It expands what augments can do and therefore what class fantasies can be fulfilled. It also has the other effects I mentioned above with crafting and making itemization more interesting and personal.

Do you at least agree that adding a cost to augments (whatever it may be) opens up design space for making more interesting/imapctful/powerful augments?

Dygz

Again, you are jumping to extremes.
Some gamers will be striving for the META - relatively few.
Some players won't care at all about the META.
Most people will be somewhere in the middle.

Stat costs inherently limit interesting and impactful builds and put a focus on cookie-cutter - flavor-of-the month builds. And inherently negates the purpose of augments.
Augments without stat costs inherently push characters towards diverse playstyle rathert han relying on spreadsheets.

Even if any class with Life School augments can heal other players, it does not mean they can do so as well as a Cleric/x. But, again, that really has nothing to do with stat "cost" and everything to do with how the individual chooses to build their character to optimize Life School augments, as well as how the individual synergizes their Healing with the Healing capabilities of others in their group.

neuroguy wrote: »

Do you at least agree that adding a cost to augments (whatever it may be) opens up design space for making more interesting/imapctful/powerful augments?

No. I vehemently disagree.
Adding a stat "cost" makes augmenting considerably less diverse and interesting.
It limits creativity.

Strevi

neuroguy wrote: »

The idea is quite simple, what if alongside the lvl requirement, your augments required a stat threshold to be used? For example a highsword (fighter primary cleric secondary) will augment the fighter abilities with cleric themed augments. What if each augment required some int/will/wisdom (stats more aligned to the cleric) to be utilized? Some augments that heavily modify an ability may require more stats and thus require itemization choices that meet these requirements.

Instead of / additional to
"your augments required a stat threshold to be used"
I would prefer
"your augments required a stat threshold to be activated"

In other words, equiping that highsword would allow that NPC to make you a fighter -cleric. The power of the augments would depend on how much that sword (and other items) and external factors (food, potions, temporary effects from players and places...) buffed you.
Then you could unequip that sword and equip whatever else you want but the augments would stay activated with the set power level.
Maybe the increased augment power would allow equipping an even higher tier weapon which could be used to increase the augment powers even more.

Dygz

Highsword is the name of the class; not the name of a weapon.
Any class can use any weapon.
Augments are tied to Active Skills; not weapons.

Strevi

oh well...

neuroguy

Dygz wrote: »

\Stat costs inherently limit interesting and impactful builds and put a focus on cookie-cutter - flavor-of-the month builds. And inherently negates the purpose of augments.
Augments without stat costs inherently push characters towards diverse playstyle rathert han relying on spreadsheets.

Even if any class with Life School augments can heal other players, it does not mean they can do so as well as a Cleric/x. But, again, that really has nothing to do with stat "cost" and everything to do with how the individual chooses to build their character to optimize Life School augments, as well as how the individual synergizes their Healing with the Healing capabilities of others in their group.

I think this is at the heart of the conversation. I don't quite understand how you believe a stat cost would put a focus on cookie cutter, flavor of the month builds. Can you walk me through your thought process? The only thing I can think of is that it limits the freedom to utilize whatever augment you want by the gear or conversely limits the gear based on the augments.

Dygz wrote: »

neuroguy wrote: »

Do you at least agree that adding a cost to augments (whatever it may be) opens up design space for making more interesting/imapctful/powerful augments?

No. I vehemently disagree.
Adding a stat "cost" makes augmenting considerably less diverse and interesting.
It limits creativity.

So I have to push back hard on this one. Think of regular skill balance. There is always a trade-off for skills to diversify them and justify variable design and power. Some skills cost more mana, some have a longer cooldown, some are mutually exclusive and thus have an opportunity cost (think of hunter aspects in WoW), these are all examples of a cost being assigned to skills allowing for greater variability in design and power. If you had all skills cost the same and have the same cooldown, it would be much harder to come up with a bunch of interesting and varied skills. This follows the same principle, the nature of the cost that I propose is secondary, the introduction of a cost to augments expands the design space and allows for greater diversity, not less.

neuroguy

Strevi wrote: »

Instead of / additional to
"your augments required a stat threshold to be used"
I would prefer
"your augments required a stat threshold to be activated"

In other words, equiping that highsword would allow that NPC to make you a fighter -cleric. The power of the augments would depend on how much that sword (and other items) and external factors (food, potions, temporary effects from players and places...) buffed you.
Then you could unequip that sword and equip whatever else you want but the augments would stay activated with the set power level.
Maybe the increased augment power would allow equipping an even higher tier weapon which could be used to increase the augment powers even more.

As Dygz mentioned, that's not quite what I was saying haha, you are kind of describing snapshotting which would be a loophole to the proposed system and should not be allowed. I also think that it should not be a reciprocal relationship. Stats (from gear) should allow you to use augments, your augments should not restrict what gear you wear. But the scaling you describe is neat and what Dygz is also saying: that the appropriate stats for your secondary may scale your secondary's augments and make it more powerful, I like it, just think it could go a bit further :P.

Strevi

neuroguy wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

Instead of / additional to
"your augments required a stat threshold to be used"
I would prefer
"your augments required a stat threshold to be activated"

In other words, equiping that highsword would allow that NPC to make you a fighter -cleric. The power of the augments would depend on how much that sword (and other items) and external factors (food, potions, temporary effects from players and places...) buffed you.
Then you could unequip that sword and equip whatever else you want but the augments would stay activated with the set power level.
Maybe the increased augment power would allow equipping an even higher tier weapon which could be used to increase the augment powers even more.

As Dygz mentioned, that's not quite what I was saying haha, you are kind of describing snapshotting which would be a loophole to the proposed system and should not be allowed. I also think that it should not be a reciprocal relationship. Stats (from gear) should allow you to use augments, your augments should not restrict what gear you wear. But the scaling you describe is neat and what Dygz is also saying: that the appropriate stats for your secondary may scale your secondary's augments and make it more powerful, I like it, just think it could go a bit further :P.

Yes, I missunderstood, probably because I hoped you describe a system I would like to see in the game.
That system I want is hard to implement with only gear slots.

Basically these augments which are applied by that NPC should be like orbs or something placed in special slots on the character and applying them would require certain stat thresholds.
Then placing low level augments could rise the level of stats which in my vision would allow swapping some buffing gear (like a sword or gloves with other which buff more) in order to equip higher augments.

If a character would have 7 slots for augments on his body, the target could be to put the best augment on a certain slot, and after that replacing the other buffing items and augments with proper ones, in specific order.

These buffing items (like sword or torch which gives more intelligence) would be more important for the purpose to place the augments than to fight with them. And finding these items could be restricted to certain class levels. This would encourage high level players to roll lower level alts to farm them and mix with new players who just join the server.

Still, even if they implement such a thing, the PvP makes all characters to want to rush to be as high level as possible because there are no brackets and the highest lvl character can fight with a lowest level character too.

Kilion

So if I understood the discussion correctly you want to limit the access to more powerful augmentation skills through gear requirements (because that's the only way to change stats) instead of having a players experience the dual class they chose from the moment they pick it and slowly increase the efficacy by adjusting their gear to the potentially modified scaling of that augmented skill.

This seems kind of unnecessary to me, mainly because I see the issue of balancing with these "lean-in skills" as equally difficult as some augments COULD be. Additionally I get the feeling this would significantly reduce class identity. No other class except the (primary) Cleric can heal others - I think this is making the Cleric primaries very unique and significant. Allowing other classes to water that down by stacking the right gear doesn't seem right to me.

And even though I get the crafting argument, I have a hunch that requiring that degree of specialization would be too much and could undermine the other design philosophies Intrepid has put forward (like cloth being magic oriented armor and plate being physically oriented).

So while I get the idea in general I think it is a fundamentally different design idea and just by that alone not viable.

Strevi

It is so weird when ppl bump threads and I read and ask myself what the heck I was posting here

Kilion

Strevi wrote: »

It is do weird when ppl bump threads and I read and ask myself what the heck I was posting here

Maybe you were in too deep haha.

But the idea is not categorically "bad" its a different design philosophy that might do wonders for another game, I just don't think this is the one which would benefit from it when looking at the goals put forward by Steven and the team (within the limits of how knowledgeable I can speak on that as someone who is not connected to Intrepid beyond a Package I bought).

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