KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way.
Dolyem wrote: » What MMORPGs have you enjoyed? Edit: also they stated it will take a substantial amount of time to reach max level
George_Black wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. Follow this guy to the daily treadmill after reaching endgame in 2 weeks and make sure to enjoy it.
Depraved wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. why it isn't good design? care to elaborate? fun is subjective. killing mobs to level up or get gear is fun for me. progression implies a timesink
KingDDD wrote: » For example, I want to play a tank. What level ranges can I play the game in the role I desire? Can I play with my friends, or must I invest more of my time to get anywhere. At what point is my class fun in moment to moment gameplay, meaning I have a rotation of abilities to maximize my threat, minimize my damage taken, and support my group in ways beyond basic combat. Investing days worth of time to get to the fun is nothing more than a time sink
novercalis wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. currently it's 45 days casual grinding avg to hit max level, which is too short imo. I hope they extend it. Pacing matters - the slower things are, the significance things begins to feel. Milestones should feel like miles, not inches. Players or young gamers have become impatience and addicted to constant dopamine - slow down and appreciate the smaller things in life or in-game life. It's not a race, it's a marathon. It's not reach the end, nor should there be an end - it's the journey along the way.
NiKr wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » For example, I want to play a tank. What level ranges can I play the game in the role I desire? Can I play with my friends, or must I invest more of my time to get anywhere. At what point is my class fun in moment to moment gameplay, meaning I have a rotation of abilities to maximize my threat, minimize my damage taken, and support my group in ways beyond basic combat. Investing days worth of time to get to the fun is nothing more than a time sink This just sounds like bad design of low lvl gameplay rather than just a problem of leveling. You could have a game w/o lvls but it would require you to repeat the same actions to lvl up your skills, so at the start you'd still have limited gameplay. And if you don't want to have that limit - don't play rpgs. Yes, Intrepid can give all the tools right at lvl1, but those tools would still have to be limited in their uses, because otherwise there'd be no progress of your character.
KingDDD wrote: » Its a problem with levels in general. Not to mention it makes portions of the content irrelevant outside of the leveling process. In a ruin is balanced around a level 23 adventuring there, what happens with a 30?
NiKr wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Its a problem with levels in general. Not to mention it makes portions of the content irrelevant outside of the leveling process. In a ruin is balanced around a level 23 adventuring there, what happens with a 30? Do you have a suggestion to resolve this "issue"? Or do you just want literally the entire game given to you on a silver platter within the first 5 minutes of playing it?
Nerror wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. So don't grind the levels. Do what you like and is fun for you, and eventually you'll get there. It's not a race. Play with some friends and have fun and XP will trickle in. If there is absolutely nothing that is fun for you on the way to max level, I dunno what to say other than the game might not be for you. I want levelling to take a long time, even for the no-lifers. I would also like to see a generous rested XP system for the more time-casual players to get a leg up.
KingDDD wrote: » Having access to abilities that are necessary to complete content doesn't equate to completing that content. If an 8 man group is in a dungeon and a mob has a casted ability that puts significant strain on a healer limiting the ability to interrupt said cast because a member doesn't have access to their interrupt doesn't make for a fun dungeon. Its about limiting progress through player skill vs artificial barriers.
NiKr wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Having access to abilities that are necessary to complete content doesn't equate to completing that content. If an 8 man group is in a dungeon and a mob has a casted ability that puts significant strain on a healer limiting the ability to interrupt said cast because a member doesn't have access to their interrupt doesn't make for a fun dungeon. Its about limiting progress through player skill vs artificial barriers. Ok, and when that group masters their gameplay skill, what do they do next? If there's literally no progress in mobs (cause everyone is the same lvl), what do those people do now? And some of the more skilled people would hit that point almost immediately. Do you want a game with 0 character progress? This isn't a shooter where your avatar is a direct conduit of your irl skills. This is an rpg, where you must bring your in-game character on a journey, where it'll learn a ton of stuff and grows with that knowledge. And you either do that through lvl progression or through repetitive actions (which are still kinda "lvl progression"). If you dislike that kind of gameplay - you dislike rpgs.
KingDDD wrote: » You have a new adventure in a new zone with new challenges and emergent ways to solve them. Character progress isn't limited to incremental statistical changes stemming from time investment. Acquiring the ability to make different character builds, both animation and gear-based cosmetics, cooperative and competitive politics, node building, animal husbandry, crafting, among many others. are all means of character progression and roleplaying beyond leveling. If RPG stands for Role Playing Game, why are you locking the RP behind a timesink?
NiKr wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » You have a new adventure in a new zone with new challenges and emergent ways to solve them. Character progress isn't limited to incremental statistical changes stemming from time investment. Acquiring the ability to make different character builds, both animation and gear-based cosmetics, cooperative and competitive politics, node building, animal husbandry, crafting, among many others. are all means of character progression and roleplaying beyond leveling. If RPG stands for Role Playing Game, why are you locking the RP behind a timesink? Afaik pretty much all of those things are not really locked behind direct vertical progression in lvls. They are still locked behind their own progression. You won't be able to craft the best gear in the game w/o investing time into crafting a ton of other shit. You can participate in politics at lower lvls too (I've seen this done in L2 years ago). I'd assume there'll be quests/actions for cosmetics that won't require you to be max lvl. But direct power of your character must come in some form of progression in an rpg. If you're a full-blown "Hero" right from the first minute of your game, you have all your abilities available to you, you have all the gear available to you (just need to go get it) and you can take on any kind of foe - to me that sounds like a bad rpg with 0 character progression. I'm sure you and your friends will be able to go cut down some trees, process them into logs and then craft them into a ship from very low lvls, because artisanry is separated from adventure lvls. But if you want to be able to win in pvp on the open seas - you'll have to progress your character to a point where you can win against other people who'd progressed their character. I'm sure there'll be other low lvl pirates too, but not for long, because a guild or two will just have a few people making ships while everyone else just goes up in lvls. And when they go out to sea, they'll have high lvl pvpers sailing ships made by high lvl artisans.
