Interactions between spells

So we know CC will be implemented and diminishing returns will be implemented

"Diminishing returns in regards to crowd control and conditions like stun and sleep and slows and that kind of thing: Yes we will have absolutely diminishing returns. I think it's a necessary component to balance out classes that have high control ability.[2] – Steven Sharif"

However I wanted to put out some thought regarding CC interactions between abilities. One of the more nuanced parts of games with many spells is the interactions between spells that directly affect each other.

For example the javelin ability from tank pulls a target, however if halfway through the pull he gets hit again by a different javelin, how is his movement impacted then? Does diminishing returns reduce the time the character is knocked down as well? is the character only able to get pulled by 1 javelin at a time?

Another example, the javelin hits a player and the player is pulled through a slow, are they slowed at the end of their stun or are they immune to additional abilities during hard CC? Does diminishing returns apply the moment the javelin hits and add up the slow that they were pulled through? If that is the case then should someone be immune to additional cc during a slow or perhaps a root or polymorph? Chain cc becomes impossible if this is the route taken, but maybe that is good, chain cc isn't very fun.

So here is a simple idea that is most likely to have been implemented already. Have each ability tiered based on cc type, for example hard CC beats polymorph beats root. With 2 of the same abilities not applying additional CC.

So next is what about spells that apply additional affects outside of CC. Like DOT. Perhaps 1 applies bleed the next poison, personally I prefer to have both applied for their respective duration rather than 1 removed if another is applied, however % damage will have to be thought out well, should a spell with %hp total damage apply the % based on the moving hp or the beginning hp level of the target? I would prefer moving % so that characters can't get burned down with many %hp DOT applied quickly.

Next buffs vs debuffs
Holy man gives you +30% damage, unholy man gives you -30% damage, should you be at 100% damage or at 91% damage, personally 91% would be my preferred. The reason someone might ask for the first option could be because of the advantage given to the player who cast 2nd. The first system would mean it merely adds or subtracts each buff, the 2nd system instead multiples each buff.

I am probably missing some things here as well, but these are some of the interactions I would expect IS will need to answer before and during the alpha, what are your opinions regarding the interactions between ability?

Was there additional interactions that we should think about?

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Comments

Songcaller

In a1 the tank chain pull could be used one after another with no break. I believe there will be a window where successive abilities won't work after the debacle.

Ludullu

Yeah, I'd prefer if the same types of abilities didn't reapply if cast directly one after the other. But a bleed and a poison should definitely stay on you at the same time.

ElCrisp

Voxtrium wrote: »

Next buffs vs debuffs
Holy man gives you +30% damage, unholy man gives you -30% damage, should you be at 100% damage or at 91% damage, personally 91% would be my preferred. The reason someone might ask for the first option could be because of the advantage given to the player who cast 2nd. The first system would mean it merely adds or subtracts each buff, the 2nd system instead multiples each buff.

One thing I would like is for all effects to have very clear wording which defines its interactions mathmatically.

For example if holy man give me +30% damage, my jewelry give me +30% fire damage, my glove +15% spell damage, and my skill level up in fireball doubles its damage.
Is that:

1.3 x 1.15 x 1.3 x 2 or
(1.3 + 1.15) x 1.3 x 2 or
(1.3 + 1.15 + 1.3) x 2

Langauge should make clear how things are added up --damage increased, more damage, decreased damage, less damage.
Path of Exile is a decent example where they try to keep in game wording consistant, allowing the player to understand the order of mathematical operations.

Gui10

For mathematics, It should be simple. +30% plus -30% should you get back to starting point. Who casted first should not be a reason to affect gameplay or stats.Therefore, ? buffs/debuffs should always be applied on the base stats, not the modded stats.

Also, certain buffs should not stack. Cant have 10 bards casting 100% speed bufss to give someone a 1000% buff lol.

Simple, coherent and universal wording yes. I dont want to have to go look for obscure youtube chanels going deep innto calculations to see how my spells affect something.

I also agree with deminishing returns. And this should also be clearly stated and there should be a visual indication on the target whether they have been CCed in the last 30 seconds for example. Maybe a "CC stack" icon under their character bar? Like different CCs apply a number of stacks that last for a certain period of time. All stacks have their own duration, butlets say that at a given moment, the stack reach 20, then the person is immune to CC, at 10, they are 50% immune, something like that. And i want to see it visually so I dont waste my CC on them

Songcaller

Yeah. I believe simplicity is the best approach when there are numerous buffs/debuffs. Why create confusion and weird stat culminations?

Villefort

Neurath wrote: »

Yeah. I believe simplicity is the best approach when there are numerous buffs/debuffs. Why create confusion and weird stat culminations?

because people are bored while waiting for the game to come out lol

Diamaht

Voxtrium wrote: »

Another example, the javelin hits a player and the player is pulled through a slow, are they slowed at the end of their stun or are they immune to additional abilities during hard CC?

I would say no to being slowed after the stun, if what you mean is that the slow doesn't start until after the stun ends. This would let people stack cc's, you'd have 8 minutes of cc waiting for you one at a time, too strong.

I would say no to being immune to additional cc if that mean they are concurrent. If someone cast a 10 second stun and a 15 second knockdown at the same time you would be effectively incapacitated for 15 seconds instead of 25. If they want full duration for both, groups have to coordinate their cc.

Voxtrium wrote: »

So here is a simple idea that is most likely to have been implemented already. Have each ability tiered based on cc type, for example hard CC beats polymorph beats root. With 2 of the same abilities not applying additional CC.

They wouldn't need to beat each other, let them go right on top of each other. If they are allowed to stack on top of each other it just rewards coordination and punishes spamming with blown cool-downs.

Also, I would like the idea of general categories for diminishing returns implemented. For example several CCs falling under the "Stun" category. Meaning, if someone casts a sleep spell and then someone else hits me with a shield bash, both abilities effectively produce the same effect so the diminishing returns should apply as if they were the same ability cast twice since they are in the same "category".

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