Thoughts on block mechanic

Well i had a though and i think overwatch might actualy be best block mechanic for AoC

effectively shields have 3 black values
Block amount = 1000hp for example
Block amount regen rate = 100 hp a second for example
Block regen delay = 5 seconds

big shield would have higher block amount but lower block amount regen rate
smaller shield will have lower block amount but regen quicker

Basicly when you blocking and dmg you take come of the shield block amount once it depleted it broken and doesnt start regening until the block regen delay value timer is up this is when your shield will start regaining it block value again at the rate of it block amount regen if you the block doesnt hit 0 it will regen after regen delay from when you stop blocking effectivly allow u to block again at any time compared to the forced wait to 75% hp if it completely breaks

Blocking without a weapon would carry the same thing but the block values would be alot smaller however the regen rate will be higher along and much lower block regen delay. you can tweak weapon value aswell like shield so some weapons are better blocking/parry better than other some could have more block amount some faster regen daggers should be quick block regen and quartstaffs could be higher block value and so on.

but i feel this would be better than stamina since you cant tweak these with passives and skill point alot more along with crafting and so on

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Solvryn

Awesome.

I like Valheims system.

Spif

I think a cap value for block amount just ends up being a bigger health pool, and block regen is just health regen for that pool. I don't like that approach, although it does end up being easy to balance.

What we saw on the stream was that an active block roughly halved the damage you took. And I'll make an assumption that each hit blocked (or each second of blocking where you get hit) reduces stamina by a fixed amount, even though Steven seemed to have unlimited stamina.

If you need to block the big hits, but attack through the smaller hits to keep aggro higher than DPS then that rewards knowing the encounter

BobTheMagicalFish

I think I'd lean more towards what Spif is saying, rather than a "block amount", blocking for example would half the damage received, and as you hold block, your stamina is consumed in fixed amounts, and perhaps the damage blocked goes from 50% to 25% or something like that.

An old game I used to play; Swordsman Online, had a similar mechanic. Blocking would also allow you to stop being pulled (e.g. Assassin class (in SMO) had a hook and pull skill similar to the Tank's (in AoC) pull, if you saw it coming and blocked then it wouldn't pull you to them. Similarly, if a strike (let's say a skill that says "Rush forward, slash your target twice to stun them on the last hit") is meant to stun you, you could block both strikes and not be stunned. Reason why you'd block both and not the last hit is because the first hit would stagger/disrupt you so you shouldn't be able to block in the middle of being slashed.

Note the game had "pulling" skills and "grabbing" skills, the latter would grab you through the block (e.g. lifting you into the air and then knocking you down onto the ground) and the pull skills would be the blockable skills, such as the hook and pull or a hand that shoots out to pull you in from a distance. There were also ways to block certain knock ups, e.g. a skill where if you emerged from the ground below your oppoonent and if they weren't blocking they'd be knocked up, but if they did block then you'd just do some damage and leave yourself exposed.

And just to add to my stun example, since you would be blocking in front of you the person attacking could walk around or use a skill to teleport behind you and stun you from the back instead - this would incentivise you to not just stand still and hold block but rather be aware of your surroundings, position yourself to be ready to block in the right direction or get away.

An example of what I mean: I used to play the Assassin class in SMO, we had a skill that would move forward a certain distance, slash the target 3 times with the 3rd hit stunning them before returning to my original position. If someone is blocking and I hit them from the front then I would do some damage but no stun. What I would often do then is use my gap closer skill which teleports me behind, my target would block in that direction, and I'd move around them, this would either lead them to letting go of their block to reposition and I could hook them or they would simply hold block and I could slash them from behind, then they'd be interrupted and unable to block.
Not that it's anything super strong as it had it's limitations. It's just a bunch of mind games since my target could predict where I'd strike them from and reposition or even just jump and dash away since my stun distance wouldn't be enough to reach them and the hook skill did not work on targets in the air, so I'd say it was fairly balanced too.

Blocking would also allow you to cancel the casting of skills, but that might be a whole other discussion. Not that I'm expecting AoC to implement blocking in a way similar to the game I described (though it would be nice), I do hope we see the blocking mechanic do more than halving numbers, if possible. I might have gone off on a tanget, sorry!

Edit: In case anyone cares or is curious, I've found a video of an arena PvP match that showcases a few of these things, blocking hooks, moving around to find the right angle, teleporting behind to bypass frontal block, grabs that forego the block (which are easily pulled off if you just stand there and block only), etc. It's a mirror match between the assassin class so even better!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H9k9_Ohx1s&ab_channel=FinestSwordsman

I realise I may have taken this in more of a PvP direction (sorry!), but I still feel it is a decent example to bring up when talking about what can be done with the block mechanic!

Karthos

I don't see why you can't do this system WITH stamina and have it be just as effective and even more expansive.

In your example, what you are doing is just giving shield users a large health pool with in combat health regen. Which is a fine system if you want to go that route, but I don't see it really being better.

Also, I'm assuming you're using the Reinhardt shield when you speak of Overwatch. This system basically IS a stamina system, they just moved the stamina to the shield and called it something else.

TheWolfofGar

Or as I will continue to say. throw active block into the trash and give ability based mitigation.

Solvryn

TheWolfofGar wrote: »

Or as I will continue to say. throw active block into the trash and give ability based mitigation.

That would inhibit class design and combat design to the most basic functions, turns the game into a stat simulator.

TheWolfofGar

Solvryn wrote: »

TheWolfofGar wrote: »

Or as I will continue to say. throw active block into the trash and give ability based mitigation.

That would inhibit class design and combat design to the most basic functions, turns the game into a stat simulator.

no, it wouldn't it would give you more options for mitigation, as you can have multiple abilities that are better in different scenarios. vs simply holding down the block button. Would it be less "action" sure, however that's a good thing.

H8edHero

I agree with the others that mention a stamina pool for blocking. In the recent video in the beginning I was like this is a tank class? Thank goodness in the end Steven started to actively block. The perfect system is just a stamina pool that is drained based off of damage taken. Bigger the hit, the bigger the drain. Just add damage blocked to the aggro table (if it isn't already) then you don't have to worry about trying to weave in light attacks. Also at the end of the video the archer nearly dies. I assume the other sword and board class in the group was a paladin type? Will they have a way to generate enough aggro or an off taunt? They could of easily used that to keep the damage off of the archer.

I try not to look at anything about this game because the wait is painful. I just see so many odd things and odd suggestions when I watch the videos or venture to the forums.

Solvryn

TheWolfofGar wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

TheWolfofGar wrote: »

Or as I will continue to say. throw active block into the trash and give ability based mitigation.

That would inhibit class design and combat design to the most basic functions, turns the game into a stat simulator.

no, it wouldn't it would give you more options for mitigation, as you can have multiple abilities that are better in different scenarios. vs simply holding down the block button. Would it be less "action" sure, however that's a good thing.

It gives you more button presses, that doesn’t make the combat good. Nor does it add depth and dimension to the game.

Active block is in respect to positioning, timing, space, distance.

TheWolfofGar

Solvryn wrote: »

It gives you more button presses, that doesn’t make the combat good. Nor does it add depth and dimension to the game.

Active block is in respect to positioning, timing, space, distance.

Holding block doesn't add depth or dimension to the game. nor does being able to hold block make combat good.

Active block is in respect to positioning, timing, positioning and positioning. what is the difference between positioning, space and distance management. all of that is positioning. or do you mean directional blocking where you take 50% reduction from the front 25% from the sides and 0% from the back. which directional blocking would also fall under positioning.

timing for 1 is currently wrong as they haven't implemented a perfect block system or a reduction to effectiveness depending on how long you've held down block. currently blocking is just a bad ability where you gain a defensive cd at the cost of being able to do anything.

Additionally abilities actually add more depth and dimension than blocking. because you need to know what to use or what works best in a given situation. when x press a, when y press b when z press c you need to know your kit and when to make use of it. in your scenario the answer to xyz is "hold block" that is far less dynamic and lacks far more depth than having ability based mitigation.

Solvryn

TheWolfofGar wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

It gives you more button presses, that doesn’t make the combat good. Nor does it add depth and dimension to the game.

Active block is in respect to positioning, timing, space, distance.

Holding block doesn't add depth or dimension to the game. nor does being able to hold block make combat good.

Active block is in respect to positioning, timing, positioning and positioning. what is the difference between positioning, space and distance management. all of that is positioning. or do you mean directional blocking where you take 50% reduction from the front 25% from the sides and 0% from the back. which directional blocking would also fall under positioning.

timing for 1 is currently wrong as they haven't implemented a perfect block system or a reduction to effectiveness depending on how long you've held down block. currently blocking is just a bad ability where you gain a defensive cd at the cost of being able to do anything.

Additionally abilities actually add more depth and dimension than blocking. because you need to know what to use or what works best in a given situation. when x press a, when y press b when z press c you need to know your kit and when to make use of it. in your scenario the answer to xyz is "hold block" that is far less dynamic and lacks far more depth than having ability based mitigation.

The buttons you want reads like tab. Tab as a whole system, doesn't have the 3d interaction, depth, or dimension I'm referring to.

There are games that still exist with bloated skill kits and target dummy combat, after a while they become stat simulators. Been there, done that.

The current active block we have is place holder, there are many good block mechanics they can get inspiration from that doesn't restrict combat.

TheWolfofGar

Solvryn wrote: »

The buttons you want reads like tab. Tab as a whole system, doesn't have the 3d interaction, depth, or dimension I'm referring to.

There are games that still exist with bloated skill kits and target dummy combat, after a while they become stat simulators. Been there, done that.

The current active block we have is place holder, there are many good block mechanics they can get inspiration from that doesn't restrict combat.

Given the game is supposed to be a Tab-action hybrid not an action mmo, so yes, I would like to shift the game back towards more tab especially as damage mitigation is a core mechanic especially with respect to tanking. If you think tab as a system doesn't have depth or dimension I would simply disagree. It may not have what you are referring to but I don't yet know what exactly it is you are referring to specifically as you threw out 4 generic words without explaining.

As for bloated skill kits I personally like a lot of buttons whether you do or don't I think AoC should be able to strike a balance between both extremes or allow the player agency to develop a hot bar with as many or few buttons as they would like.

Yes the current active block is a place holder however you've not really provided anything that makes it seem desirable, what are some good block mechanics that they should take inspiration from, Reinhart from the OW example isn't fun to play because you can block, he's useful to play because you can block. Reinhart is fun when you dash in, ult and cc people and get kills. if all you did in game every game was toggle block on and off you would not be having fun

Solvryn

TheWolfofGar wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

The buttons you want reads like tab. Tab as a whole system, doesn't have the 3d interaction, depth, or dimension I'm referring to.

There are games that still exist with bloated skill kits and target dummy combat, after a while they become stat simulators. Been there, done that.

The current active block we have is place holder, there are many good block mechanics they can get inspiration from that doesn't restrict combat.

Given the game is supposed to be a Tab-action hybrid not an action mmo, so yes, I would like to shift the game back towards more tab especially as damage mitigation is a core mechanic especially with respect to tanking. If you think tab as a system doesn't have depth or dimension I would simply disagree. It may not have what you are referring to but I don't yet know what exactly it is you are referring to specifically as you threw out 4 generic words without explaining.

As for bloated skill kits I personally like a lot of buttons whether you do or don't I think AoC should be able to strike a balance between both extremes or allow the player agency to develop a hot bar with as many or few buttons as they would like.

Yes the current active block is a place holder however you've not really provided anything that makes it seem desirable, what are some good block mechanics that they should take inspiration from, Reinhart from the OW example isn't fun to play because you can block, he's useful to play because you can block. Reinhart is fun when you dash in, ult and cc people and get kills. if all you did in game every game was toggle block on and off you would not be having fun

It is a tab-action hybrid something, seems melee will be action and ranged will be tab.

What I’m talking about is how we interface across 3d space, angles, geometry, placement, distant between two points become much more important.

And I think Valheims block and parry system would make the best adaptation into the game simply because it could have great button presses that compliment each other.

TheWolfofGar

Solvryn wrote: »

It is a tab-action hybrid something, seems melee will be action and ranged will be tab.

What I’m talking about is how we interface across 3d space, angles, geometry, placement, distant between two points become much more important.

And I think Valheims block and parry system would make the best adaptation into the game simply because it could have great button presses that compliment each other.

Melee being action only and ranged being tab only is part of my concern, we're intrepid to go that route they will alienate a ton of their tab-centric players who had planned to play melee classes. Myself included, I personally won't tank which is my usual main in mmos if it is action only.

how we interface across 3d space is still important in tab which is part of why I'm confused by your statements Intrepid has already clarified there aren't going to be skill shots in game, so general discussion of angles and geometry seems to be fairly moot. if you mean being able to balance distance around cleaves or other aoes that is fairly similar in tab vs action if you are standing in the bad you take damage. That doesn't really impact blocking in the slightest. all blocking is, is a ability that provides a damage mitigation at the cost of offensive capacity. we're they to implement a system where you could block and attack at the same time I'd be more interested in giving it some lee-way however that imo would make shields op/mandatory as a tank and I think they should make 2h builds viable As for Valheims system I've not played it really so will need to experiment to see how it feels I guess, however if it's a perfect block/parry system that's not really what I'm looking for in a mmo and I'd likely put ashes aside or try out a ranged class at best

Hinotori

Solvryn wrote: »

TheWolfofGar wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

The buttons you want reads like tab. Tab as a whole system, doesn't have the 3d interaction, depth, or dimension I'm referring to.

There are games that still exist with bloated skill kits and target dummy combat, after a while they become stat simulators. Been there, done that.

The current active block we have is place holder, there are many good block mechanics they can get inspiration from that doesn't restrict combat.

Given the game is supposed to be a Tab-action hybrid not an action mmo, so yes, I would like to shift the game back towards more tab especially as damage mitigation is a core mechanic especially with respect to tanking. If you think tab as a system doesn't have depth or dimension I would simply disagree. It may not have what you are referring to but I don't yet know what exactly it is you are referring to specifically as you threw out 4 generic words without explaining.

As for bloated skill kits I personally like a lot of buttons whether you do or don't I think AoC should be able to strike a balance between both extremes or allow the player agency to develop a hot bar with as many or few buttons as they would like.

Yes the current active block is a place holder however you've not really provided anything that makes it seem desirable, what are some good block mechanics that they should take inspiration from, Reinhart from the OW example isn't fun to play because you can block, he's useful to play because you can block. Reinhart is fun when you dash in, ult and cc people and get kills. if all you did in game every game was toggle block on and off you would not be having fun

It is a tab-action hybrid something, seems melee will be action and ranged will be tab.

What I’m talking about is how we interface across 3d space, angles, geometry, placement, distant between two points become much more important.

And I think Valheims block and parry system would make the best adaptation into the game simply because it could have great button presses that compliment each other.

Lol what. Melee is certainly not action only, if we're going from what we've seen in the showcases.

Solvryn

TheWolfofGar wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

It is a tab-action hybrid something, seems melee will be action and ranged will be tab.

What I’m talking about is how we interface across 3d space, angles, geometry, placement, distant between two points become much more important.

And I think Valheims block and parry system would make the best adaptation into the game simply because it could have great button presses that compliment each other.

Melee being action only and ranged being tab only is part of my concern, we're intrepid to go that route they will alienate a ton of their tab-centric players who had planned to play melee classes. Myself included, I personally won't tank which is my usual main in mmos if it is action only.

how we interface across 3d space is still important in tab which is part of why I'm confused by your statements Intrepid has already clarified there aren't going to be skill shots in game, so general discussion of angles and geometry seems to be fairly moot. if you mean being able to balance distance around cleaves or other aoes that is fairly similar in tab vs action if you are standing in the bad you take damage. That doesn't really impact blocking in the slightest. all blocking is, is a ability that provides a damage mitigation at the cost of offensive capacity. we're they to implement a system where you could block and attack at the same time I'd be more interested in giving it some lee-way however that imo would make shields op/mandatory as a tank and I think they should make 2h builds viable As for Valheims system I've not played it really so will need to experiment to see how it feels I guess, however if it's a perfect block/parry system that's not really what I'm looking for in a mmo and I'd likely put ashes aside or try out a ranged class at best

"Melee being action only and ranged being tab only is part of my concern", I understand; this iterations combat just seems like a prototype.

" we're intrepid to go that route they will alienate a ton of their tab-centric players who had planned to play melee classes. Myself included, I personally won't tank which is my usual main in mmos if it is action only."

Intrepids already alienating their action combat range players, I suspect this will not go very smoothly.

" interested in giving it some lee-way however that imo would make shields op/mandatory as a tank and I think they should make 2h builds viable As for Valheims system I've not played it really so will need to experiment to see how it feels I guess, however if it's a perfect block/parry system that's not really what I'm looking for in a mmo and I'd likely put ashes aside or try out a ranged class at best"

Give Valheims system a go, it definitely can be adapted in a way that is pleasing to a hybrid combat system.

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